Still having nutrient issues!

[heifinator]

 

Hey all. Have a 90 gallon cube sps tank (currently mostly frags) and am having some weird nutrient issues.

The tank has been up for about a year and I have fought with nutrients pretty much the entire time.

Currently the parameters are

 

SG: 1.025
Temp: 78-79
Calc: 420
Mag: 1300
Alk: 8.7dkh
Po4: 0.095ppm (hanna ULR Phosphorus)
No3: 10ppm (Salifert)

Lighting is provided via 4 ATI t5 and 6 nanobox led arrays at around 60%. Flow is provided by 2 MP40s. Nuisance algae is under control but its almost everywhere. Short hair alage and cladophoropsis have the biggest presence. Tank has about 40lbs of reef saver dry rock seeded with 5lbs of cured live rock from LFS. Also have a few 1" marinepur ceramic biomedia plates in the sump between baffles

 

Filtration is provided by filter socks, a bag of carbon, vertex 180i, GFO reactor, Cheato reactor, and No3Po4-X (9ml daily carbon dose).

 

There are 9 fish in the system and a very small clean up crew.

 

Water changes are done with Red Sea salt at ~35% weekly. Coral health is improved after a water change but after about a week it begins to decline again, hence the aggressive water changes.

 

I am looking for advice because I am at a loss with this system. Between extreme filtration and light feeding (1/2" mysis cube daily with occasional phytofeast squirt) I expected some improvement but I have made no changes in the last 8 weeks and have seen no reduction in Po4 or No3. It is completely stable around 0.1ppm Po4 and 10pmm nitrate. I have another 30 gallon system with a larger bioload, way less export, I rarely do water changes and it has no issues whatsoever. It kills to see the difference between the two and know I am using the same methods on both with totally different results!

 

I had another thread on here a couple months ago in which I was able to at least get the nutrients stable by adding the cheato reactor but since then no improvement.  I keep looking to import vs export issues but really can't figure out what is going on. I feel like import is minimal and export should be sufficient...

 

Any help would be appreciated, thanks! 

[Thrassian Atoll]

Not sure.  You have reactors and I am guessing the no3po4 x is basically a carbon dosing?

 

Maybe add more GFO, change it out more.  The 10 nitrates aren't that big of an issue in my opinion but that .1 po4 is high.  I would try to attack that first.  I would add more GFO and change out more frequently.  I don't know anything about carbon dosing but maybe switch the X out for some vodka or vinegar.  If nothing helps, the only other solution I would have is to start removing some of the larger fish.

 

what number is your hanna UL Phosphorus checker giving you before you convert it?

[Clown79]

10 for nitrates is no biggy.

 

The phos is a bit high. Your gfo may need more frequent changing

 

 

 

[heifinator]

25 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

10 for nitrates is no biggy.

 

The phos is a bit high. Your gfo may need more frequent changing

 

 

 

I'm changing it weekly. 

[Orangutran]

Why not beef up your CUC, at least to get you over the hump. And get some herbivore fishes! 

[Thrassian Atoll]

9 minutes ago, Orangutran said:

Why not beef up your CUC, at least to get you over the hump. And get some herbivore fishes! 

The nutrients are negatively affecting his corals as well, not just algae issues.

I am guessing the nitrates and phosphates are even higher with the algae consuming a lot of it.

[Orangutran]

5 minutes ago, TILTON said:

The nutrients are negatively affecting his corals as well, not just algae issues.

I am guessing the nitrates and phosphates are even higher with the algae consuming a lot of it.

*Shrug* Oh I forgot that small detail. But still, a bigger cuc is a start.  

[burtbollinger]

I'd add 25 or so Ceriths right of the bat....

[cju84]

Are you using RO/DI or distilled water?  What's your water source?

[Sherman]

NO3 at 10 is ok. But you can reduce it anytime by dosing carbon.

PO4 is a bit high but should be easily reduce either by running GFO or

dosing iron.

But most important ensure your skimmer is running and skim wet

 

[heifinator]

On 9/26/2017 at 4:21 PM, cju84 said:

Are you using RO/DI or distilled water?  What's your water source?

RODI with a output TDS of 0.

 

Tested my weekly WC water which had been sitting for a couple days mixing.

 

NO3: <1-2

PO4: 0

 

Not sure where the nitrate came from but its not enough to worry about I don't think. I feel like export is high on this system but I dunno maybe I'm crazy! 

 

On 9/27/2017 at 10:48 PM, Sherman said:

NO3 at 10 is ok. But you can reduce it anytime by dosing carbon.

PO4 is a bit high but should be easily reduce either by running GFO or

dosing iron.

But most important ensure your skimmer is running and skim wet

 

GFO is being ran and changed every week (2 max) this has been going on for ~8 weeks now. Still have significant algae growth

[Sherman]

Are you running any skimmer? You need to export your buildup nutrient

[heifinator]

On 10/1/2017 at 11:57 PM, Sherman said:

Are you running any skimmer? You need to export your buildup nutrient

Skimmer is a vertex 180i. Oversized for the tank. Running wet. Fills every 5 days or so.

 

 

[CronicReefer]

To me it sounds like you don't have enough surface area for bacteria. If you are dosing 9mL/day of N03-P04X you should see your nutrient levels dropping if you have enough bacteria colonies. I'd recommend buying a Bio-Brick, they are doped with sulfur which helps the bacteria colonies grow. This has helped out my tank the most and I have had zero algae issues since adding the brick. I bought mine from Brightwell Aquatics, it is rated for tanks between 50 and 1000 gallons and provides full denitrification, phosphate reduction, and the large bacteria mass will even help to reduce some DOCs. It takes about a month for the brick to become fully seeded but it should help your tank with the nutrient levels. Mine is so efficient at reducing phosphate that even after dosing phosphate I go from 0.30ppm to 0.00ppm in under 12 hours.

 

Before Bio-Brick

 

After Bio-Brick (about 5 months later)

[Sherman]

On 10/4/2017 at 3:00 AM, heifinator said:

Skimmer is a vertex 180i. Oversized for the tank. Running wet. Fills every 5 days or so.

 

 

U take 5 days to fill your skimmer 's cup. I not sure why so slow.

Mine need to empty every day or it will overflow

[mr9iron]

Could the be problem that his live rock is saturated with phosphate and leaching it back into the tank?

[Scorchx1245]

This I heard about this, it sounds true. And I have heard of this before.

On 10/11/2017 at 10:32 PM, mr9iron said:

Could the be problem that his live rock is saturated with phosphate and leaching it back into the tank?

 

[CronicReefer]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:32 PM, mr9iron said:

Could the be problem that his live rock is saturated with phosphate and leaching it back into the tank?

 

1 hour ago, Scorchx1245 said:

This I heard about this, it sounds true. And I have heard of this before.

 

I do not believe that this is a real thing. If phosphate has saturated within your rocks it would be in the form of Ca3(PO4)2, otherwise known as calcium phosphate. Calcium phosphate is insoluble in water and will not start "leeching". This article by Randy Holmes Farley gives a really good explanation of sources of phosphates and methods of controlling. If anything is "leeching" from rocks it is decaying organics that are releasing phosphates into the aquarium and not the rocks themselves. In fact, phosphate ions are constantly precipitating out of seawater into calcium phosphate and aluminum phosphate. A type of phosphate acid can occur with excess hydrogen ions present but this too will precipitate out when calcium/aluminum ions are available.

[mr9iron]

3 hours ago, CronicReefer said:

 

I do not believe that this is a real thing. If phosphate has saturated within your rocks it would be in the form of Ca3(PO4)2, otherwise known as calcium phosphate. Calcium phosphate is insoluble in water and will not start "leeching". This article by Randy Holmes Farley gives a really good explanation of sources of phosphates and methods of controlling. If anything is "leeching" from rocks it is decaying organics that are releasing phosphates into the aquarium and not the rocks themselves. In fact, phosphate ions are constantly precipitating out of seawater into calcium phosphate and aluminum phosphate. A type of phosphate acid can occur with excess hydrogen ions present but this too will precipitate out when calcium/aluminum ions are available.

Well, that is good to know.  I will give Randy's article a close read.

[heifinator]

So a quick update. Been doing the following for 3 weeks, some of it much longer.

 

• Running GFO, normal dose, changed weekly
• Running activated carbon
• Dosing NO3PO4-X @ recommended top dose.
• Feeding 1/4 cube of mysis (rinsed) daily, fish eat it all in ~20 seconds.
• Removed 2 fish from system and rehomed
• Cheato reactor

 

For surface area the system has 2 marinepur plates along with ~45 lbs of reef saver BRS rock.

 

Nitrates are holding steady at around 7-10ppm and PO4 is reading at .04ppm

 

SPS are becoming very pale and my cheato growth has completely stopped. Algae growth in the main display however continues to grow and spread.

 

I'm getting pretty close to just putting the fish in a temp system and totally restarting. I'm approaching a year fighting this algae in this system! 

 

Some tests I have done at the recommendation on NR

 

• Put a little bit of my rock in a 5 gal bucket overnight, po4 read 0.00 next day.
• Put a little bit of my sand in a 5 gal bucket overnight, po4 read at 0.00 next day.
• Reduced lighting to 6hrs / daily
• Confirmed ALK / Calk / Mag / SG are good (8 / 420 / 1300 / 1.026)
• Changed GFO frequently (weekly)
• Added CUC
• Siphoned sand and blew detritus from rock every few days.
• Changed filter socks every 2 days
• Skim wet (skimmer rated for 220 gallon system filling up every 3-5 days)
• Reduce feedings
• Remove some bioload (fish)

Still can't get this algae to go away. I am ok with using bandaid solutions but don't want to use them until growth stops, otherwise it will just come back.

 

Hoping for a couple final recommendations before I just start over.

 

There is no way underfeeding or over exporting while using carbon dosing could cause this issue right? Every alarm in my head is saying the tank should be WAY to clean however it isnt...

 

Thanks!

[Scorchx1245]

I'm still learning and I don't if you could but you transfer you're corals and fish to a quaritine system. Due a 100% water change and black out the aquarium for a couple days such as wrap it in a blanket. This would remove any nutrient occurring bio loads and stop photosynthesis and then manually clean the rock with a toothbrush in a bucket. Of clean saltwater. This could be a big drastic step. I've also heard of completely replacing/removing and rinsing the sand bed. Also beefing up your CUC crew couldn't hurt. These might drastic and wrong for saltwater but I had a natural sunlight freshwater tank I basically had to do this too.

[heifinator]

If I go that far I am just going to move some of the rock and fish into a holding system, get some new rock, and start over.

 

At one point during all of this I took all the corals out and did a 10 day black out and changed filter socks daily. Algae still alive.

 

I am starting to think that for whatever reason this system isn't developing the normal bacteria cultures that we normally see on liverock.  Obviously this is just a hunch but it just doesnt make any sense otherwise.

 

I have another 45 gallon tank sitting right next to it that gets basically the same care with 5 times the feeding that has none of these issues. Same source water, salt, etc.

[Orangutran]

29 minutes ago, heifinator said:

If I go that far I am just going to move some of the rock and fish into a holding system, get some new rock, and start over.

 

At one point during all of this I took all the corals out and did a 10 day black out and changed filter socks daily. Algae still alive.

 

I am starting to think that for whatever reason this system isn't developing the normal bacteria cultures that we normally see on liverock.  Obviously this is just a hunch but it just doesnt make any sense otherwise.

 

I have another 45 gallon tank sitting right next to it that gets basically the same care with 5 times the feeding that has none of these issues. Same source water, salt, etc.

That might be something to look into. I have learned that biodiversity goes a long way in reef tanks. When our tanks are started with dry rock, we don't get all the good stuff that comes with live rock. 

 

If you're in the states you have access to fresh Caribbean LR. Worth a shot, since you've tried a lot of the recos. 

[Scorchx1245]

@brandon429 seems knowledgeable in this. 

[CronicReefer]

4 hours ago, heifinator said:

If I go that far I am just going to move some of the rock and fish into a holding system, get some new rock, and start over.

 

At one point during all of this I took all the corals out and did a 10 day black out and changed filter socks daily. Algae still alive.

 

I am starting to think that for whatever reason this system isn't developing the normal bacteria cultures that we normally see on liverock.  Obviously this is just a hunch but it just doesnt make any sense otherwise.

 

I have another 45 gallon tank sitting right next to it that gets basically the same care with 5 times the feeding that has none of these issues. Same source water, salt, etc.

It is possible because you started with dry rock it is going to take longer for your tank to reach "maturity". I also would recommend you swapping out one marinepure plate with a sulfur doped plate that is 2.5" or thicker and start dosing Microbacter7. The sulfur provides a food source for dentrifying bacteria deep within the plate to reduce nitrates/phosphates extremely well. It takes about 1-2 months for the plate to become fully seeded with bacteria. I would slowly start to reduce your GFO till you no longer need it because the sulfur doped plates are extremely effective at removing phosphates. I stopped testing because unless I dose phosphates I never get anything but 0.00 on my Hannah checker. I would continue carbon dosing as that helps a lot with proper bacteria growth. I had algae issues on and off for the first year in my 75g but as it's matured and I've focused more on biological filtration rather than using chemical I've had incredible success compared to before.