PSA: Philips Coralcare

[markalot]

 

Rude? I simply stated an observation based on your comment which others have also pointed out. Ryan said the spread and PAR map is basically identical to an 8 bulb sunpower. Did I ever tell you to go #### off? God forbid for me to be excited about a light that on real world measurements goes toe to toe with a T5 light that pretty much everyone considers to be one of the best things you can put over corals. I go by data and not anecdotal evidence.

 

Energy savings with LED is a myth if you want to copy T5. What you save money on is bulbs and not have to worry about spectrum and output fluctuations when bulbs start to get old. Countless evidence in the past couple of years has shown that putting leds on a puck and calling it a day does not mimic MH and T5. Hotspots do not exist with a T5 light. No LED until now has really addressed that problem. Optics create wild fluctuations in PAR and spectrum when water movement is taken into account. T5 does not have this issue. Why do you think Dave refuses to put optics on his lights? He could very easily add some and his PAR numbers would go way up and then he can brag like ecotech does about radion PAR numbers.

 

I dislike radions because they are incredibly expensive for what they are. Since when does popularity = best? Can radions grow coral? Sure and pretty much everything out there can grow coral. Can it grow coral like a Sunpower does? Sure if you want to put a massive amount of them over the tank. Sahin from RC got Radions to grow coral like his T5 and MH but he had to put 3 units, I repeat 3 over a 50g tank.

 

So this dude got SPS to grow like crazy on his 8ft tank with 8 radions, 1 per linear foot. He could have put 2x 48" Sunpowers over the thing and have the same outcome and spend thousands less. With coralcares he would've needed 4 units. The point is there are better options out there than Radions. You want sleek, go buy a Nanobox Wide Quad. More pucks and considerably more even coverage than a Radion.

 

I never mentioned Radions, since you were responding to me. I just want to see how the fixture performs with real world tests, not caring about the quality if the diodes or anything else. That's not a slam to those that care, that's just my opinion. I woudl be more excited about the fixture if it managed to save on bulb cost and power ... that's also an opinion. I'm glad you are getting one.

[Horerczy]

It's a good thing NR has laid back moderators/admins.

 

The next step in led lighting will probably combine this approach with the large panel diffuser with Theatrus' compact arrays to provide a more even spectral distribution.

[zooman72]

 

Defend my purchase? I have used and in my possession quite a bit of different lights. I own a custom Powermodule that Dave did some stuff on that cost more than this thing. I also own an AP700. I also have nanobox units as well. I go by hard facts not anecdotal bullcrap. People complain all the time about radion shadowing and the measurements BRS has done show exactly why that is. Just because you refuse the accept it is not my problem.

 

I guess next time someone tells me to #### off I should congratulate them instead. I merely stated radions are trash and you got all defensive as well.

 

In regards to slief I have met him in person and talked to the guy. He has a friend who also has coralcare units in the states. Should I have said the coralcare is the best led ever? Probably not, but it sure as hell is a lot better than everything out there. Lights are not magic, there is always hard data and measurements to why something performs the way it does. BRS even went as far in the video as to explain the way T5 works and where most LED lights differ. While to you it might be bullshit, the data is there.

 

So there is the receipt, are you going to shut the #### up now or just bring up other bullshit?

 

Also I haven't been saying that the unit will cost less than a Radion XR30 G4 Pro for shits and giggles. It is because the US price will be less.

 

1. I don't care how many lights you have used - I have also used more than I can count over the years, so what? I am not going around claiming one or the other is better over one that I have not even used. I simply stated that they each have their pros and cons, which you seem to ignore, unless it benefits your "point". While I can understand your excitement for this new light, I cannot understand why you have to be so rudely defensive of others positions - you bought it, great, now put it to work and show us what it can do. Then, after you have done so you can then go on and tell us all how wonderful it is.

 

2. Dude, you are being a b***h about this, sorry, and while Mark can take care of himself, he was not out of line initially. As for my defense of the Radion - I made my point earlier: it is not my favorite, your opinion is hyperbole, and you have no facts to back up your statements.

 

3. Talk about contradiction - do you seriously read what you type - take a look at your sentences #2 and #3 in your third paragraph: "Should I have said the coralcare is the best led ever? Probably not, but it sure as hell is a lot better than everything out there."

 

You then go on to blather about facts and data - all you have are some baseline tests from BRS of a select number of variables, but nothing else, and again, you fail to consider other facts that do not support your argument that this thing "is a hell of a lot better than anything else out there" - when you haven't even used it yet!

 

We all know that T-5's differ from LED's, but it seems inherent to your statement that this set of differences makes them "bad", even though there is "evidence" to the contrary. If you know Slief, why didn't you contradict him or Dave over on RC? Doesn't fit your argument maybe, or don't like being called out by Dave B. for posting without much evidence that you can do better?

 

4. Well, I am certainly not going to "shut the **** up now" just because this is not going the way you want it to, where we all fawn over a light none of us have seen in person, and then congratulate you for bringing it to our attention, sorry.

 

5. Again, how do you know the U.S. price will be less? What insight brings you that info? What if it isn't? What if you can't grow jack with it - will it be the lights fault or yours?

[gus6464]

Well then you can continue talking to yourself because I'm done. Funny how I was told to #### off and called a bitch yet I am the rude one.

 

I will continue to state my opinions on lighting as I always have in this place. You can cry at every single thread where I say radions are trash because I'm not going to stop.

[Nano sapiens]

Hmmm, yet another personally contentious lighting thread? Used to be MH vs T5 guys going at it, then MH & T5 people insulting LED users...now LED users vs LED users. Should we not be concentrating on the technology and how it is applied, pros and cons of different form factors, programming pros and cons and such?

 

The concept for this light is similar to other european lights, such as the LANI (which is what I loosely modeled for my small DIY array, using a large number of emitters close together and spread out over a relatively large surface area). Having this type of array available at a realistic price is great for the reef hobby, IMO.

 

BRS is making some broad assumptions regarding the CoralCare diffuser plate, IMO. Using a diffuser is not new as DIY LED guys have been experimenting with them for quite some time. There are pros and cons with this approach, but in my similar concept DIY array I elected not to continue using a diffuser since I much prefer some glitter line effects in my aquarium and my corals didn't seem to care one way or the other. Would be interesting to see the effect on corals (if any) if an early adopter uses the Philips unit 'as is' for a few months, then removes the diffusion plate (and matches PAR) for a few more months.

[zooman72]

Hmmm, yet another personally contentious lighting thread? Used to be MH vs T5 guys going at it, then MH & T5 people insulting LED users...now LED users vs LED users. Should we not be concentrating on the technology and how it is applied, pros and cons of different form factors, programming pros and cons and such?

 

The concept for this light is similar to other european lights, such as the LANI (which is what I loosely modeled for my small DIY array, using a large number of emitters close together and spread out over a relatively large surface area). Having this type of array available at a realistic price is great for the reef hobby, IMO.

 

BRS is making some broad assumptions regarding the CoralCare diffuser plate, IMO. Using a diffuser is not new as DIY LED guys have been experimenting with them for quite some time. There are pros and cons with this approach, but in my similar concept DIY array I elected not to continue using a diffuser since I much prefer the glitter line effect in my tank and my corals didn't seem to care one way or the other. Would be interesting to see the effect on corals (if any) if an early adopter uses the Philips unit 'as is' for a few months, then removed the diffusion plate (and matched PAR) for a few more months.

 

"Should we not be concentrating on the technology and how it is applied, pros and cons of different form factors, programming pros and cons and such?"

I think this is almost exactly what I mentioned earlier, isn't it? I really was not attacking the OP, but he seemed intent on making this contentious if anyone challenged their view.

 

I think it was also mentioned that this is not necessarily a new concept, and I very much agree with your last point - before and after affects of the diffusion plate.

[Nano sapiens]

I think it was also mentioned that this is not necessarily a new concept, and I very much agree with your last point - before and after affects of the diffusion plate.

 

My first thought before the presenter even started to discuss whether the diffuser plate was needed was that this would become a very efficient array without the diffuser and that the 'glitter line' lighting effect produced would likely be moderate. The emitters are laid out in strips with some spacing in between, so one might encounter a bit of color banding at shorter distances from the light source, but I suspect this effect would be minimal at greater distances.

 

Of note is the 20% less light emitted when using this glass-frosted diffuser. Using a thin frosted acrylic diffuser I was seeing around 7-8% loss in intensity and some DIY have reported even less. Since Philips is using a current production housing, they may have settled on using the existing glass pane and simply frosting it.

 

Since Gus6464 is so far our 'early adopter', maybe he can add more to this when the array is installed and running.

[zooman72]

 

My first thought before the presenter even started to discuss whether the diffuser plate was needed was that this would become a very efficient array without the diffuser and that the 'glitter line' lighting effect produced would likely be moderate. The emitters are laid out in strips with some spacing in between, so one might encounter a bit of color banding at shorter distances from the light source, but I suspect this effect would be minimal at greater distances.

 

Of note is the 20% less light emitted when using this glass-frosted diffuser. Using a thin frosted acrylic diffuser I was seeing around 7-8% loss in intensity and some DIY have reported even less. Since philips is using a current production housing, they may have settled on using the existing glass pane and simply frosting it.

 

Since Gus6464 is so far our 'early adopter', maybe he can add more to this when the array is installed and running.

 

Yep, height of the fixture does matter, so one has to wonder - use the diffuser plate for shorter mounting distances, or lose it for greater mounting heights?

 

I would also assume ("dangerous", I know) that they did indeed put little effort into a new diffuser plate design/ formulation, as losing 20% of PAR is quite significant.

[zooman72]

I will continue to state my opinions on lighting as I always have in this place. You can cry at every single thread where I say radions are trash because I'm not going to stop.

 

1. Won't carry much weight if you continue to rely on hyperbole and can't back it up by growing some coral, sorry...

 

2. Bitching about Radions probably won't help you much either, but you are welcome to continue...

 

3. Trying to have an unbiased eye might help in your future endeavours - good luck!

[Horerczy]

My unbiased eye keeps getting ignored.

 

But since we're so concerned about coral growth. Phillips did release an interesting paper with some growth reports set next to dimmable sunpowers. The results are darn close and the paper is a very good read regardless.

 

 

https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/TimWijgerde/coralcare-led-unit-preliminary-field-test-report-final-v3

 

Hopefully they publish the follow-up that is hinted at by this report.

[zooman72]

My unbiased eye keeps getting ignored.

 

But since we're so concerned about coral growth. Phillips did release an interesting paper with some growth reports set next to dimmable sunpowers. The results are darn close and the paper is a very good read regardless.

 

 

https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/TimWijgerde/coralcare-led-unit-preliminary-field-test-report-final-v3

 

Hopefully they publish the follow-up that is hinted at by this report.

 

Interesting, but a few points though:

 

1. One month is not long enough in my opinion to make any definitive conclusions (which they seem to acknowledge).

 

2. Any good research needs replication for definitive analysis, and this is a brief one-off, although "they" state that more is to come - will be interesting to see what results.

 

3. Wall plug efficiency seems to be a bit complicated, possibly unnecessarily - "we" and "they" are comparing 192W's of T-5 lighting to 190W's of LED lighting, which results in similar PAR output and spread, and yet "they" claim that their "greater efficiency" can save up to 30% more "energy" - HUH?

 

4. Not related to the study in question, but from their website, and this really gets me: "The CoralCare optical system was designed in such a way that it has very limited efficacy losses thanks to the highly reflective materials and smart design."

 

a ) What highly reflective materials are being used? Limited efficacy losses? - BRS notes the loss of PAR with the diffuser in place!

 

b ) What is so smart about the design? The diode mix is really not all that innovative is it? The frosted front cover? - I think we covered that. Fanless design? - nice, but not new, and adds bulk to the fixture (always a trade-off for any decision made).

 

5. EcoTech came up with their Coral Lab "study", which seems to be every bit as thought out (IMO more so) than what the study noted above for the CoralCare fixture is, and one big take-away for me - the height of the fixtures over the "stations" is 24"! At this height spread and "disco" are no longer an issue (and they address coral coloration and growth rates already for the study), although efficiency still is a question possibly...

[markalot]

 

 

5. EcoTech came up with their Coral Lab "study", which seems to be every bit as thought out (IMO more so) than what the study noted above for the CoralCare fixture is, and one big take-away for me - the height of the fixtures over the "stations" is 24"! At this height spread and "disco" are no longer an issue (and they address coral coloration and growth rates already for the study), although efficiency still is a question possibly...

 

Most important for me was the fact they did not show progress of any acros in their study. Did they ever post a followup to the first results? Acros take time so the fact they left them out might not mean anything.

[zooman72]

 

Most important for me was the fact they did not show progress of any acros in their study. Did they ever post a followup to the first results? Acros take time so the fact they left them out might not mean anything.

 

I did not see any Acropora sp. examples, just Seriatopora sp., Montipora sp. (M. undata and another unnamed species) over 16 weeks, but also no LPS or soft corals, so I guess that is a weakness. They also did not weigh the corals (which the CoralCare study did) or otherwise list growth parameters - please note that I did not say the EcoTech study was flawless or perfect, just similar to the CoralCare. Trust me, I wish they would provide more details and data, and hold out hope they will do so in the future.

 

Until then, nothing is officially settled...

[Horerczy]

I found the final report. It's on their product page towards the middle just after the reviews of a few European users with some lovely tanks but their review are ancidtoal at best. The report itself is much the same but with 3 month results added.

 

http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/coralcare

 

I think we can all agree that more real world testing is needed. But we can definitely see the Coral are living and growing in these preliminary tests. Now they need big bird nest and acro colonies to observe if there is any issue with the colony shading itself out like with typical led setups.

 

I do agree with you Zoo. Wall plug efficiency means little for our purposes.

 

Using a lower loss diffuser would definitely be a step in the right direction. Then the drivers could be swapped for lower current ones for similar output results allowing the fixtures size to be reduced as well. As for the 20% loss, well, that is a discussion far beyond the scope of this topic due to the various sciences involved in diffusion material design but overall not as bad as it sounds.

[Reefkid88]

Damn,that was a good read Almost better than talking sports or politics lol.

[Nightstar]

This Phillips coralcare looks to be much like my DIY, which works really well and cost me perhaps $500 all in 2ish years ago. Now I don't keep acropora as I don't dose anything but kalk and RO nor test anything but temperature and salinity but all the same corals I grew under a 175w mh(212w at the plug) grow and look better under 75w(~82 at the plug) of 68 diode goodness. I'd call that some electrical savings particularly in the warm months.

 

I'd sooner plunk my cash down on the Phillips than a Radion based on diode distribution and selection. Maybe acros are different? My hitch-hiker porites is growing out of control though... just saying.

[Chema]

I do agree with you Zoo. Wall plug efficiency means little for our purposes.

 

 

I'm not that sure wall plug efficiency (WPE) means little. If WPE is defined as the ratio between the electrical input power and the amount of optical output power which produces the source of light analyzed (that's the way the people in Philips define it) and you compare sources of light which produce a similar spectrum, then the data is very interesting because is telling you how well you take advantage (or better said, corals take advantage) of the electricity bill.

 

I would recommend the explanation given by Luc Vogel in R2R (http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/philips-coralcare-benefit-1-the-perfect-light-balance.274031/page-2).