RO/DI water left exposed to air in my house accumulates ammonia. Why?

[braaap]

I will look into the carpet more. I don't doubt that I can remove what's there. Free installation doesn't sound so bad either.

 

It is worth it. Just replaced all of ours. Didn't realize how it really did affect the air quality. Now I vacuum every other day. Not sure the people before us owned a vacuum haha

[callmesaul8889]

 

It is worth it. Just replaced all of ours. Didn't realize how it really did affect the air quality. Now I vacuum every other day. Not sure the people before us owned a vacuum haha

 

 

I will run it by the landlords (my girlfriend's parents) and see if they're interested in covering the costs of replacing the carpet. I really don't want to go down this route until I can confirm it will solve the problem, but I won't hesitate if it will allow me to set up my next tank.

[AZDesertRat]

I think your results are inaccurate. It is extremely hard to measure individual contaminants in ultrapure water, RO/DI or distilled. Even with high $$ lab grade instruments it is tough. This is the reason we use TDS or for a higher level of accuracy conductivity or resistivity to judge the purity of RO/DI. Hobbyist grade test kits aren't going to do it since they are designed to work on tap or saltwater and not unbuffred and very volatile pure water.

[cruiZe]

What caused you to test RODI water for ammonia? Random, but i'm curious. Does it show any TDS now? I've read API ammonia test kits are not accurate at low readings.

 

I see the results after 24 hours, but have you tested it again the next day? Unless the cat is peeing in your top-off water (i know you already eliminated that possibility- but it's too funny and cat's do crazy things to punish you for being in "their house") this seems like a which hunt.

[ReefWeeds]

 

You would really be surprised. Pests can live in the walls/attic and you wouldn't know. Hell Stellablue has a colony of bats in her attic. She didn't know until recently and she has several hundred. And she has a cat and 3 dogs. Domestic animals lose a lot of that killer instinct. So your cat might not alert.

 

My money is on those stains/flooring. They might not be emitting odors to your nose but probably enough to affect the air quality. I'd start replacing the flooring as you can. If you can DIY you can save lots of money.

 

This is true I'm hoping it's not several hundred - but there is a big colony of bats living in there. We do have two cats - and both would go up to the attic, but didn't have access to the areas where the bats were (crawlspace eves). So I had no idea until I had a bat flying around my bedroom - to which one of the cats actually alerted me to it when he was making these crazy noises in the middle of the night. Woke up, turned on the light and followed his eyes - boom. Bat on the ceiling. that then started divebombing me, the three dogs and the one cat

 

Mice are the same. Mice and bats can get into such tiny spaces - the width of a dime or smaller.

[braaap]

 

This is true I'm hoping it's not several hundred - but there is a big colony of bats living in there. We do have two cats - and both would go up to the attic, but didn't have access to the areas where the bats were (crawlspace eves). So I had no idea until I had a bat flying around my bedroom - to which one of the cats actually alerted me to it when he was making these crazy noises in the middle of the night. Woke up, turned on the light and followed his eyes - boom. Bat on the ceiling. that then started divebombing me, the three dogs and the one cat

 

Mice are the same. Mice and bats can get into such tiny spaces - the width of a dime or smaller.

 

Hi Grandma!

[markalot]

I think most of the answers here, while trying to be helpful, might be too complex.

 

My RODI smells like cat pee when I open the Brute container I keep it in. Never caused an issue. There are two things you mentoned that might be issues you need to check.

 

First, are any chloramines being used in your tap water that are not being removed by your RODI? Check the local water report, you may need an additional filter. Chloramines getting into the tank can cause slow death and parameter issues.

 

Second, the white scum that shows up in the tank is bacterial film, indicating you overdosed a carbon source (vinegar, NOPOX, whatever). Any chance your RODI container is not food safe?

 

Finally, do yourself a favor and throw out the API ammonia kit.

 

For a TDS meter, get a nice temperature correcting handheld, like this: http://www.amazon.com/KevenAnna-Features-Automatic-Temperature-Calibration/dp/B019T0CU6I/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1456258719&sr=1-2&keywords=tds3+meter

[callmesaul8889]

I think your results are inaccurate. It is extremely hard to measure individual contaminants in ultrapure water, RO/DI or distilled. Even with high $$ lab grade instruments it is tough. This is the reason we use TDS or for a higher level of accuracy conductivity or resistivity to judge the purity of RO/DI. Hobbyist grade test kits aren't going to do it since they are designed to work on tap or saltwater and not unbuffred and very volatile pure water.

 

I'm not trying to get pinpoint numbers. All I want to see is if the water has ANY ammonia. I've done well over 35 test and every single one has been consistent. Inside the house = ammonia reading, outside the house = no ammonia reading. All from the same water source.

 

How is that in any way inaccurate? It's not like different rooms are giving me different results. Every single water cup exposed to the air in my house has a consistent ammonia reading, and every cup that's outside my house or in another building has absolutely no ammonia reading.

 

 

What caused you to test RODI water for ammonia? Random, but i'm curious. Does it show any TDS now? I've read API ammonia test kits are not accurate at low readings.

 

I see the results after 24 hours, but have you tested it again the next day? Unless the cat is peeing in your top-off water (i know you already eliminated that possibility- but it's too funny and cat's do crazy things to punish you for being in "their house") this seems like a which hunt.

 

 

I spent the last summer/fall trying to keep my coral from going pale and dying. Long story short: low/undetectable phosphate, low bioload, pristine tank, and NO3 levels that would go from 5ppm to 50ppm in 2 weeks regardless of how much or little I fed. Couldn't grow any macro algae, carbon dosing (no matter how little) would cause slime. All of my SPS paled out. I'd give pieces to my friend who has less than a year experience with reefs and he's been growing the pieces that were dying in my tank ever since. Here's the thread from before I knew about these ammonia test results: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/363207-zeroundetectable-phosphates/#entry5077138

 

I think most of the answers here, while trying to be helpful, might be too complex.

 

My RODI smells like cat pee when I open the Brute container I keep it in. Never caused an issue. There are two things you mentoned that might be issues you need to check.

 

First, are any chloramines being used in your tap water that are not being removed by your RODI? Check the local water report, you may need an additional filter. Chloramines getting into the tank can cause slow death and parameter issues.

 

Second, the white scum that shows up in the tank is bacterial film, indicating you overdosed a carbon source (vinegar, NOPOX, whatever). Any chance your RODI container is not food safe?

 

Finally, do yourself a favor and throw out the API ammonia kit.

 

For a TDS meter, get a nice temperature correcting handheld, like this: http://www.amazon.com/KevenAnna-Features-Automatic-Temperature-Calibration/dp/B019T0CU6I/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1456258719&sr=1-2&keywords=tds3+meter

 

 

I don't store water in anything right now. All of these test are on water that's produced right before the tests start. The water makes contact with the inside of the cup and that's it.

 

My RO/DI container that I used to use for top off water is LDPE 4. Reef safe and used by my (very successful) LFS.

 

The white scum that developed from NOPOX was originally caused by using the recommended dose. I tried a second round of carbon dosing with 1/4 the recommended dose and it still lead to slime. During all of that, my NO3 levels would still rise continually and my coral looked like shit. All of these problems are documented in the thread I posted earlier and it's what lead me to breaking down the tank and starting testing why my house seemed to be the black plague for reef tanks.

Also, I'll grab a Salifert test on the way home to make all you API haters happy. I never thought I'd own over $50 in various ammonia test kits

[markalot]

 

I'm not trying to get pinpoint numbers. All I want to see is if the water has ANY ammonia. I've done well over 35 test and every single one has been consistent. Inside the house = ammonia reading, outside the house = no ammonia reading. All from the same water source.

 

How is that in any way inaccurate? It's not like different rooms are giving me different results. Every single water cup exposed to the air in my house has a consistent ammonia reading, and every cup that's outside my house or in another building has absolutely no ammonia reading.

 

 

 

 

I spent the last summer/fall trying to keep my coral from going pale and dying. Long story short: low/undetectable phosphate, low bioload, pristine tank, and NO3 levels that would go from 5ppm to 50ppm in 2 weeks regardless of how much or little I fed. Couldn't grow any macro algae, carbon dosing (no matter how little) would cause slime. All of my SPS paled out. I'd give pieces to my friend who has less than a year experience with reefs and he's been growing the pieces that were dying in my tank ever since. Here's the thread from before I knew about these ammonia test results: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/363207-zeroundetectable-phosphates/#entry5077138

 

 

 

I don't store water in anything right now. All of these test are on water that's produced right before the tests start. The water makes contact with the inside of the cup and that's it.

 

My RO/DI container that I used to use for top off water is LDPE 4. Reef safe and used by my (very successful) LFS.

 

The white scum that developed from NOPOX was originally caused by using the recommended dose. I tried a second round of carbon dosing with 1/4 the recommended dose and it still lead to slime. During all of that, my NO3 levels would still rise continually and my coral looked like shit. All of these problems are documented in the thread I posted earlier and it's what lead me to breaking down the tank and starting testing why my house seemed to be the black plague for reef tanks.

Also, I'll grab a Salifert test on the way home to make all you API haters happy. I never thought I'd own over $50 in various ammonia test kits

 

So you tested positive for ammonia right out of the RODI? Chloramines, read up about them. I would not buy an ammonia test kit, not worth it.

Most concise explanation is here:

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2512414

 

I agree that carbon doesn't remove ammonia or chloramine. It will split the chloramine into ammonia, chloride, and nitrogen gas:

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.htm

 

The RO and DI phases both will work to remove the ammonia and the chloride. Ammonium (the ionized form of ammonia) is removed by RO, while I think most of the ammonia will pass through the membrane.

In any case, if your RO/DI filter is in good shape, it'll be fine. If you're worried, replacing the carbon prefilter might be a good safety net.

 

In short, might be time to replace carbon block and pre-filter for the RODI, maybe even the DI. If chloramines are used in your water supply these can exhaust quickly so it may pay to put a more robust carbon filter in. AZ can better answer where this goes / if it's needed.

[callmesaul8889]

 

So you tested positive for ammonia right out of the RODI? Chloramines, read up about them. I would not buy an ammonia test kit, not worth it.

Most concise explanation is here:

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2512414

 

 

In short, might be time to replace carbon block and pre-filter for the RODI, maybe even the DI. If chloramines are used in your water supply these can exhaust quickly so it may pay to put a more robust carbon filter in. AZ can better answer where this goes / if it's needed.

 

 

No, that is not correct. Right out of the RO/DI I'm seeing 0ppm TDS and 0ppm ammonia. Only after 12+hours will I see ammonia and TDS rise above 0. I'm already using all brand new filters in my RO/DI. They're less than 2 months old and since I haven't had a tank since Christmas, the RO/DI has only made about 20 gallons of water total. My RO/DI unit already has a 2 stage catalytic carbon block for chloramine removal.

[markalot]

I don't store water in anything right now. All of these test are on water that's produced right before the tests start. The water makes contact with the inside of the cup and that's it.

 

Ok, I ignored the inside outside test comment. Just stop testing IMO, they are not accurate and you're chasing ghosts.

 

I would also blissfully forget your old nitrate problems, probably a testing issue as well. Salifert for Nitrate, Ammonia do what you want, Salifert for KH and Calcium, and go.

[braaap]

My RODI smells like cat pee when I open the Brute container I keep it in. Never caused an issue. There are two things you mentoned that might be issues you need to check.

 

Ha so it is a Brute container thing. haha

[AZDesertRat]

An odor in the RO/DI water is common and is a result of amines in the DI resins.

http://spectrapure.com/frequently-asked-questions#fishy

 

Another thing we have found that causes a cat urine odor in newer homes or those that have had new flooring installed is tap water that is treated with chlorine dioxide. When I supervised a municipal water utility we started purchasing water from a neighboring utility for an outlying area with new development and received complaints almost immediately. After much research and lab analysis it was determined it was the chlorine dioxide that was the issue. Very different from chloramines which really are not much of an issue at all but everyone thinks they are for some reason. ANY good single 1 micron or smaller is more than capable of removing the chlorine portion of chloramines and breaking the bond with the ammonia which is them mostly removed by the RO membarne and polished off by the DI. Good DI resin and contact time with the DI, read that as full size certical DI canisters and not horizontals which channel or short circuit, is much more critical than the carbon. Special carbons are a waste of your hard earned money. They were developed for industrial applications where the chloramines might be hundreds of times higher than the 4 mg/L allowed by the EPA in drinking water.

[callmesaul8889]

Ok, I ignored the inside outside test comment. Just stop testing IMO, they are not accurate and you're chasing ghosts.

 

I would also blissfully forget your old nitrate problems, probably a testing issue as well. Salifert for Nitrate, Ammonia do what you want, Salifert for KH and Calcium, and go.

 

 

Do you think I'm doing this for fun? I almost left the hobby because my reef was dying no matter what I did. I'm NOT going to set up another tank until I know that it's safe to do so. There's no way you can convince me to blissfully ignore what I went through.

 

Imagine watching every monti cap you put in your tank die in a $2500 build and then compare that to your first tank which was a 10g tank using tap water and a hang on back filter.... I had no problems growing monti cap then.

 

Also, I'm using Salifert tests for everything except ammonia.

An odor in the RO/DI water is common and is a result of amines in the DI resins.

http://spectrapure.com/frequently-asked-questions#fishy

 

Another thing we have found that causes a cat urine odor in newer homes or those that have had new flooring installed is tap water that is treated with chlorine dioxide. When I supervised a municipal water utility we started purchasing water from a neighboring utility for an outlying area with new development and received complaints almost immediately. After much research and lab analysis it was determined it was the chlorine dioxide that was the issue. Very different from chloramines which really are not much of an issue at all but everyone thinks they are for some reason. ANY good single 1 micron or smaller is more than capable of removing the chlorine portion of chloramines and breaking the bond with the ammonia which is them mostly removed by the RO membarne and polished off by the DI. Good DI resin and contact time with the DI, read that as full size certical DI canisters and not horizontals which channel or short circuit, is much more critical than the carbon. Special carbons are a waste of your hard earned money. They were developed for industrial applications where the chloramines might be hundreds of times higher than the 4 mg/L allowed by the EPA in drinking water.

 

We don't have new floors. They were installed when the house was built 11 years ago. We do have some water damage to the floors near the front and back doors, but I'm not aware of anything that would cause ammonia from that.

 

I do have 2x 1 micron catalytic carbon blocks along with 2x full size vertical DI canisters, so I don't expect chloramine to be the issue.

 

Ha so it is a Brute container thing. haha

 

For a while I was preparing 30 gallons of water at a time (it was a 30g tank) for nitrate control and whenever I used my Brute container, it smelled nasty!

[markalot]

 

 

Do you think I'm doing this for fun? I almost left the hobby because my reef was dying no matter what I did. I'm NOT going to set up another tank until I know that it's safe to do so. There's no way you can convince me to blissfully ignore what I went through.

 

Imagine watching every monti cap you put in your tank die in a $2500 build and then compare that to your first tank which was a 10g tank using tap water and a hang on back filter.... I had no problems growing monti cap then.

 

Also, I'm using Salifert tests for everything except ammonia.

 

We don't have new floors. They were installed when the house was built 11 years ago. We do have some water damage to the floors near the front and back doors, but I'm not aware of anything that would cause ammonia from that.

 

I do have 2x 1 micron catalytic carbon blocks along with 2x full size vertical DI canisters, so I don't expect chloramine to be the issue.

 

For a while I was preparing 30 gallons of water at a time (it was a 30g tank) for nitrate control and whenever I used my Brute container, it smelled nasty!

 

Perhaps you were stripping your tank of nutrients and using a clean water source, which exacerbated the problem? All I'm saying is there are a number of more logical explanations than RODI with ammonia. I don't have a good answer for you but I really do suspect the ammonia in your RODI, somehow appearing from the indoor air, is not an issue. It doesn't cost much money to start again, this time with a few cheap frags, and see how it goes.

 

Good luck, I sincerely hope everything works out.

[callmesaul8889]

 

Perhaps you were stripping your tank of nutrients and using a clean water source, which exacerbated the problem? All I'm saying is there are a number of more logical explanations than RODI with ammonia. I don't have a good answer for you but I really do suspect the ammonia in your RODI, somehow appearing from the indoor air, is not an issue. It doesn't cost much money to start again, this time with a few cheap frags, and see how it goes.

 

Good luck, I sincerely hope everything works out.

 

 

 

I came to the same conclusion at one point and upped my feeding regimen and bioload with even worse results. No matter what I did, I could not keep NO3 from escalating out of control. I tried ultra low nutrient system, heavier bioload with heavy skimming, heavier bioload with heavy skimming AND carbon dosing, and every single macro algae I tried to grow would wither away and die.

 

And I did start another tank. I had a 20g hospital tank that I transferred a few frags into. The second tank was using water made from my LFS and after 2 months all of the euphyllia and zoas had shrunk and some had died. It had 1 clownfish and 1 dotty back and I fed every other day with no left over food. The tank had 20% water changes every week and I ran chemipure blue and filter floss.

 

Thanks for the help, I hope I figure this out too.

[callmesaul8889]

The ammonia is most definitely airborne. I put out distilled water, RO/DI water from my local fish store, and my own RO/DI water and they all have an ammonia reading after 24 hours. I also put a cup of my own RO/DI water with some Prime in it and it remained ammonia free.

Pics:

http://imgur.com/a/VPhsu

If the Prime keeps the water ammonia free for another couple days, I will probably use it on all my water from now on. I'd still like to find the source and solve the problem, though.

[Ken0]

Not sure if this was brought up before. Is the ammonia test kit your using for freshwater or saltwater?

[callmesaul8889]

Not sure if this was brought up before. Is the ammonia test kit your using for freshwater or saltwater?

 

 

 

It comes with color charts for both fresh and salt.

[mrbigshot]

just for a reference i tested my rodi water that has been sitting for 3 days using an api test kit. if anything just to kelp rule out testing error or kit. i hope you can find the source of your problems, however i wouldn't worry to much about it. even if there was a small amount of ammonia in the rodi water all you are doing is helping build a better biological filter. zoas melt in perfect water and they melt in dirty water (although less in dirty) and many times from light being too strong all the time. sps rtn from aggressive carbon usage, aggressive skimming, or even water changes when the alk is more than a few dkh different than the tank water.

i wouldn't blame any loses on ammonia in the water, hell many sps and zoas are hacked from wild colonies and will die no matter what in 6 months just from having a hard time adjusting to aquarium life.

[callmesaul8889]

Thanks for doing that test. Regarding my troubles with my last tank, I'm not blaming coral losses on the ammonia directly. I'm suggesting the ammonia in the air was the reason for uncontrollable nitrates.

 

The balance of my system was way out of whack. Phosphate never went above 0.05ppm, and my tank was completely free from any nuisance algae. Nitrate would never hold steady, it would always increase day to day. No matter how much or how little I fed, nitrate would always trend upwards until I'd do a big enough water change to make a dent.

 

I tried every major form of nitrate control and none of them worked. Macro algae died in my tank (I tried on multiple occasions with different strategies like heavy vs light feeding etc). Carbon dosing didn't control nitrate and caused slime buildup that rendered my skimmer useless. I even got rid of all my fish except 1 and doubled my live rock. Nothing I tried kept nitrate from going from 5ppm to 50ppm in 2 weeks. All while my other Params were spot on.

 

Ammonia in my air is really the only thing I can think of that would explain why nitrate was constantly increasing but the rest of the Params stayed consistent. And my coral would do ok so long as I kept NO3 at a reasonable level, but the only way I could do that was to do 80% water changes weekly. This kept my NO3 range between 5ppm and 20ppm and I saw improved color and growth. Obviously that's not a realistic long term strategy though.

[callmesaul8889]

So I received the hydrion ammonia test paper and so far I haven't found a single source of ammonia anywhere I've checked. I've decided to call an indoor health and environment specialist. They said if they couldn't help, they could refer me to someone else who could. I don't really have a plan from here on out. I'm just going to continue with my new tank build and hope that I figure out the ammonia issue before it's time to start mixing water.

 

 

Here's a link to my build page for anyone who's interested: https://www.instagram.com/nullreef/

[ndrobey]

A lot of houses have black mold in the walls. Its particularly common in Florida. It produces ammonia like crazy and you can't see it.

[callmesaul8889]

A lot of houses have black mold in the walls. Its particularly common in Florida. It produces ammonia like crazy and you can't see it.

 

 

 

Hmm. Well that's certainly a troubling thought. I can't say I didn't think of mold being the problem before, but I didn't realize it could release ammonia like that. I'm going to start searching for areas that might be prone to mold. This should be fun..

 

Are there any easy methods for identifying mold that would be behind drywall?

[ndrobey]

If the ammonia rises faster near a wall than in the center of the room, I would start suspecting that wall.