onthefly Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 Ok, I've been reading alot on this subject. For those that don't know, this is a huge craze in Europe. So, for those who know, is the ZEOvit system just a trace element replacement system and PO4/NO3 reduction? It looks to me like you still need: 1) Ca reactor 2) Kalk reactor 3) skimmer 3) still need to dose Mg 4) and w/c's. So, just another piece of techno-crap to foul the system? As a scientist, I'm alway leary of the snake oil drops (AKA ZEOstart, ZEObak, ZEOfood, ZEOspur2, "potassium iodide fluoride" concentrate (which makes no sense to me), Iron concentrate, etc). The pics of the systems that run it are awesome, but who's to say it isn't good husbandry and not the ZEOvit? Anyone else have any insight? Check it out: http://www.captiveoceans.com/ Link to comment
Xx_de_xX Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 I've read a bit about it, and I'm not sold on it. I think it'll be like another fad.. one that comes and goes. Kinda like the DSB! (Though it's not going.... YET!) Link to comment
onthefly Posted August 5, 2004 Author Share Posted August 5, 2004 HA! My sand bed is slowly disappearing with every water change!!! I just don't see why I'm supposed to spend another $500 buck or so for some voodoo filtration system. They say the bacteria feed the SPS, which is soooo wrong. Link to comment
just dave Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 "Another important consideration is the possible importance of bacteria in the heterotrophic feeding of corals. A study conducted in the early 1970s revealed that SPS corals were able to process more phosphorus from bacterioplankton than from inorganic phosphate that was present in the water at an equal concentration (Sorokin 1973)." "As yet very few aquarists feed their corals with bacteria on purpose. Instead, bacteria are mainly used to reinforce the breakdown of nitrogen, but in the process the corals are feed as well. ...........Furthermore ,when we supply carbon scources,such as food for bacteria in the form of ethanol,sugar or acetate, we also supply food to heterotrophic bacterial fauna in the aquarium and particularly to that living in the mucus of the corals. This may possibly increase the population densities of all bacterial populations in the tank, and in turn, broaden the food spectrum available to the corals. This would certainly explain why corals living in aquaria that recieve small daily doses of ethanol (the so called "vodka filter") display particularly well-developed polyps ( M. Mrutzek,personal communication). We weren't aware that by doing so we were feeding the coralsas well. There is also aquarium observation that an overdose of bacterial solutions increases growth of corals ( T. Pohl, personal communication), or densities of zooxanthellea within the corals ( F. Diehl, personal communication)." from CORAL magazine June/July 2004 Volume One/ Number Three "Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium-Part III. Feeding Zooxanthellate Corals." By Jorg Kokott Link to comment
onthefly Posted August 5, 2004 Author Share Posted August 5, 2004 Very interesting reading Dave! That also help to clear up the vodka issue and some other observations I've had. The impression I got from the authors (what I could find in English) was the bacteria released from the ZEOvit was being "directly" taken up from the SPS in a predatory fashion (like cyclopeeze), but alot of sources have showed that there is a minimum limit to the size that and SPS poylp could feed on. So I thought their idea was junk. However, if it is an acessory effect that is interesting info..........still not sold on the system yet Link to comment
supernip Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 i too have pondered this question for a few mins, spreadout through a few weeks. I keep ready that it "basically starves a tank while maintaining bacteria colonies." As adin put it, a natural method. Everything I've read just gives you run around answers like bacteria eats this, releases that etc. but it never really explains the chemical reactions involved. anyway, maybe if I replaced zoa with nip, I could pimp it out at half price and still make millions. NIPVit, kinda cool. Link to comment
onthefly Posted August 6, 2004 Author Share Posted August 6, 2004 NIPvit, NIPfood, NIPstart, NIPspur 1 and 2.......... I've read a bunch of thread at RC on it.....and other than...."It works great" there's no other evidence other than it being a great colonizing media. I hate things with "magical powers"........ Link to comment
skeletor Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 it's also that these ppl are now following a strict maintenance schedule on their tanks, which alone would probably make them look better :-) yeah OTF, my sand bed is also coming out with every water change, slowly tho... it's just another way to grow rock animals :-) -skeletor- Link to comment
supernip Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 small pieces of coral rubble in a fug thats kept in total darkness to keep it from getting clogged with coralline. a good way to grow bacteria. keep some sponges for nutrient export Link to comment
Xx_de_xX Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Originally posted by onthefly I hate things with "magical powers"........ kinda like the DSB.... Link to comment
nalbar Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 they lost me with the opening statement on their home page. no legitimate system needs to paint a mental picture of 'the serene beauty of the deep blue ocean that few will ever see'. what bs. nalbar Link to comment
skeletor Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 well, there is a ZEOvit "guide" out: http://www.captiveoceans.com/ZEOvit%20Guide1.pdf it kind of explains what's happening in english and is well worth a read.. -skeletor- Link to comment
onthefly Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 That is some interesting reading..... Even though people remain skeptical, a couple people over at RC have started using it and noticed results (usually crazy poylp extension and subtle color changes) at 2 weeks. Link to comment
skeletor Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 yeah, I'm thinking about it... I've used some bacterial things before with good results and the last 2 weeks I've been vodka dosing and it is really starting to help. something worth mentioning is this system is geared towards SPS so it is definately not for everyone. -skeletor- Link to comment
onthefly Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 Actually, they say it fine for softies, LPS, and Clams too. Another interesting thing I saw and read was they run there KH WAY down around 6-7. They're rationale being it is more like NSW and not elevated like us "yanks" tend to do it. They claim (anecdotally) that elevated KH levels might be a contributing factor in RTN. I've been kicking the vodka thing around for a while to reduce the nutrients in my FOWLR. What's your dosing regime? Link to comment
birdman204 Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Originally posted by Xx_de_xX Kinda like the DSB! (Though it's not going.... YET!) A tangent... FWIW, DSB's are not "fads" they are a WONDERFUL way to complete Nitrate reduction. The largest problem with them is the misapplication of the DSB theory. -2" of Sand -screen to keep animals from burrowing too low -3- 5more " of sand - Another screen, this time, to keep the sand raised off the Plenum of anoxic water below. And the sand needs to be fine, not coarse. There aren't many things out today that work as effictivley as a DSB for nitrate redustion, again the problem lies in it's mis-application. Not enough open sand space for diffusion, and people almost NEVER make them deep enough. Studies have shown they need MINIMUM of 4 inches or more. Problem is, to some people, 4 inches in one spot can be pushed around to make 2 inches in another. Originally posted by onthefly They claim (anecdotally) that elevated KH levels might be a contributing factor in RTN. As does Dr. Shimek on RC.com.... An elevated Alk level will lower the available amount of Ca to the corals. Most NSW reading of Alk are averaged out at ~ 6.5 - 7 I wouldn't say it is a factor in RTN. We do want to strive for the optimum environment not the minimum environment(read as as close to NSW as possible). Link to comment
onthefly Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 I know the inverse Ca/Alk relationship........but you can still keep Ca levels up around 420ppm, and a alk of 10-11 dKh. So in this case, elevated dKH is not reducing the Ca in the water column. As for nitrate reduction, what about a coil denitrifier? Made one, still sitting in the garage until I get a dosing pump for it. Link to comment
skeletor Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Originally posted by onthefly As for nitrate reduction, what about a coil denitrifier? Made one, still sitting in the garage until I get a dosing pump for it. LOL ! mine is sitting the cupboard, another unfinished project just "T" it off your return, it only need a real slow flow.. the problem I'm having is that my tank is getting on 5 yrs old now and the 40lb of LS I have is just spewing PO4 into the water, this is crap that accumilated over years of overfeeding and not knowing what the hell I was doing, a denitrifier might work but I like the idea of bacteria attacking the problem where it is occuring. I just ordered a Hanna low range phosphate photometer so I can get some accurate readings in the water column and around the sand bed. I started off with 1ml per day (Popov vodka) for 8 days then 2ml per day for another 8 days, then I stopped a couple of days ago. skimmer output increased after a few days and I got some really dark skunge.. I was getting slime on the glass so so I wanted to stop for a few days and check things out. I had one stag show some tissue loss in a few "spots" which was very weird and I'm not sure even related. one orange digi has a little bare spot now too. the red hair/fluff algae is really starting to die off, I hope it continues. I was concerned that to rapid a change might lead to an RTN event so I have backed off for now. bird: I agree, DSB's when done correctly, are great, but I personally think they should be remote to the main tank.. -skeletor- Link to comment
birdman204 Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Here's an idea for you wanting to use coil dentitrators... put the top end into the tank somewhere, then let it coil down and the bottom end into your sump, put a flow control nozzle on it, and run it by siphon..... Be sure to check the water coming out for increased ammonia and nitrites, if this occurs, it's flowing too fast. FWIW, these coil style denitrators should be at least 200 feet worth of tubing if not more. Link to comment
birdman204 Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Originally posted by skeletor bird: I agree, DSB's when done correctly, are great, but I personally think they should be remote to the main tank.. -skeletor- I agree, another way to make it asthetically pleasing is to make your stand lip 4 - 6 inches tall , to hide the dirty looking anerobic areas. Link to comment
onthefly Posted August 25, 2004 Author Share Posted August 25, 2004 I've thought about the gravity flow denitrifier.....I was worried about sucking crap into it and it becoming fouled, and the potential power outtage (albeit, the flow should be minimal). I read somewhere that 5-10 drops per minute was the target flow..... Mine is 16"high 4" Black PVC with a lot (not sure how much) of silicone airline tubing wound all the way up the inside to the top. the center is full of ceramic colonizing media. Link to comment
just dave Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 bird: I agree, DSB's when done correctly, are great, but I personally think they should be remote to the main tank.. Read through this . Link to comment
birdman204 Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Dave, is there a particular page you are referring to? I don't see how the first article pertains to this. Link to comment
onthefly Posted August 25, 2004 Author Share Posted August 25, 2004 Well, my 120 is going to be BB.......more room for SPS!!! Link to comment
skeletor Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Originally posted by just dave Read through this . only got to page 5, then ff to page 41, there is a lot of stuff there but it didn't convince me the DSB's can't work.. it is, after all, just another place to grow bacteria. -skeletor- Link to comment
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