circulation positions

[mariposa11]

Wanted to see how yall had your circ. set up. I have 12 gal Nano with everything stock. Just added a rio 50 and have it on opposite side of stock pointing toward the front. I noticed that the opposite side of stock pump wasn't fairing as well so that is the reason for pointing rio on that side. Also angles up for surface agitation. Any comments appreciated!!

 

thanks

[nalbar]

all i have is a 120 GPH ph, half plugged up with crud, feeding a fuge, which then gravity drops it back into the tank. thsi is for a 7.5nano with a 5g fuge.

 

70% of the tank is quite calm. its been that way for months, ever since i removed the intank PH. shrooms and rics never looked better. extremely high flow is a myth on most tanks, whats far more important is a surface skimmer and water quality.

 

 

nalbar

[the deacon]

nalbar it hit the nail on the head

[FAC_WNY]

Flow is dependent on what corals you keep...period. Its not a "myth"..especially for keeping SPS corals. Most softies will do better in lower flow tanks..but this is a factor of ecology. Most people don't do the research into where exactly their corals come from on the reef. Different parts of a reef receive very different amounts of flow. A lot of softies are lagoonal, and therefor don't receive anywhere near the amount of flow that something like an Acroporidae or Poritidae species receives on the forereef or reef crest. If you have a tank full of 'shrooms and you're blasting it with 800gph of flow in a 10 gal tank, then yes, you have WAY too much flow..but if you keep/want to keep SPS corals, then 800 gph in a 10 gal tank wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Heck..the new 15 gal I have in the works is going to have 800 gph of flow. Increased flow definately has its advantages as well, it helps to keep corals from sedimentation and helps to keep detritus suspended in the water column where it can be removed by a skimmer, or ingested by corals. The idea that flow is a "myth", however, is complete BS IMO.

 

Cheers,

Fred

[mariposa11]

So If i have the PHs working in opposite directions, that pretty much is ok depending on who I want in my tank.

[nalbar]

FAC, you need to READ MY POST. i said a myth ON MOST TANKS.

 

the VAST majority of tanks here are if fact, softy tanks. if you had EVER read a post of mine you would know i always say dependant on what you keep.

 

in MOST cases (even with most SPS), very high flow in a NANO is TOTALLY unnecesary. it does not take much flow to spread water around in a nano. all you have to do is look at one.

 

look at which forum you are in. you are in the BEGINNERS forum! you wont find many SPS keepers in here.

 

its YOU who needs to do research, or at least get some more experience in nanos. most of what you said was BS.

 

 

nalbar

[FAC_WNY]

Oh Great nalbar...please point out one thing I said that was erroneous. And just because its a BEGINNER'S FORUM doesn't mean that the person doesn't want to keep SPS corals. And its not just about moving the water around "a bit"...a large percentage of SPS corals come from VERY HIGH FLOW environments, and they require this type of flow to 1) decrease the CSM boundary layer to aid in rejecting sedementation and colonization by detrimental algae and 2) aid in the capture of food items/uptake of nutrients.

 

Nothing I said was in the least bit "wrong"...its all well-documented scientific fact. Feel free to attempt and prove that anything I said was "wrong"...but you'll have a VERY hard time doing that.

 

Cheers,

Fred

[nalbar]

your post was BS for a VERY common mistake 'tech reefers' make. because they WANT to do something, that it NEEDS to be done. 800 gph in a 15g is in NO WAY needed. you just WANT to do it so when your reef buddies get together you can go 'ya but i have..' IMO this mistake is made because you need company in your devices, and feel foolish when someone advises against them

 

people put skimmers, calc reactors, and all sorts of other stuff on nanos because they WANT to. so yes, you are WRONG when you say high flow is NEEDED. a nano is NOT a 100g + tank. the animals in a nano are not 'spread out'. they are inches apart.

 

since we are talking 'science' lets talk a little science. most reefs, contrary to what is commonly thought, exist in seas that are more 'barren' than, to use an example, artic waters. in that enviroment, high flow MAY be NEEDED for their growth. but a reef tank is in no way 'barren'. you can control its nutrient supply. you can quite literally flood the tank with nutrients.

 

in that case, all you need is minimal flow. a simple PH would be enough.

 

 

it was not hard at all. but of course, its not 'proof' to you is it?

 

 

nalbar

[Xx_de_xX]

High flow is needed for most SPS corals, stated by FAC_WNY above.

 

Question of circulation depends on what you want to keep. Low to Medium flow is okay for most LPS and Mushrooms. Medium to High flow is necessary for most SPS. Although they will tolerate low flow, they tend to not thrive.

 

Why bother setting up a tank minimally? Why push the limits on what corals are capable of tolerating? Give them what they get naturally. Allow them to thrive.. not just survive.

[FAC_WNY]

Water Flow Rates in Coral Reef Area Habitats:

 

Reef crest, fast currents, wave surge = 7-34 cm/sec (3-13"/sec) up to 1m/sec

 

Lagoon = 1-16cm/sec (.5-6"/sec)

 

Deep Forereef = 5cm/sec (<2"/sec)

 

Mid to deep Forereef = 5-7cm/sec (2-3"/sec)

 

Shallow Forereef = 9-16cm/sec (3.5-6"/sec)

 

(from Borneman, "Aquarium Corals")

 

"In general, calcification rates are found to be significantly higher in more energetic water flow..."

 

"Increased water movement also allows for greater uptake of ammonium, phosphate, and other dissolved nutrients and aids in providing hydrostatic pressure to maintain expansion of polyps. This may be absolutely critical in maintaining the turgor or fleshy expansion of some soft corals that have few supporting skeletal elements."

 

"Perhaps second only to lighting, in terms of importance to coral health, is water movement."

 

(all from Borneman, "Aquarium Corals")

 

"For suspension-feeding animals, in most shallow water marine ecosystems, there is sufficient food available at all times to fulfill, the animals' basic needs. These basic needs, in order, are:

 

1. Simple tissue maintenance or basic respiration; this is the simple process of staying alive. If the organism has more than enough energy and materials to stay alive, the next priority is:

2. Repair of injuries. If the organism has more than enough energy and materials to stay alive and repair injuries, the next priority is:

3. Growth. If the organism has more than enough energy and materials to stay alive, repair injuries, and to grow, the next priority is

4. Reproduction. If the organism has enough energy and materials to stay alive, repair injuries and to grow, then virtually all the excess energy is put into reproduction.

 

In fact, once a basic size is reached so that sufficient resources can get collected and be allocated for reproduction, most animals cease much growth and put all of their excess energy into reproduction. The adult sizes of most marine invertebrates appear to be determined by the tradeoffs necessary to obtain sufficient food to reproduce.

 

In aquaria, food may often be considered to limit the growth of organisms. Often, hobbyists feed insufficient amounts of food or may only have inappropriate foods available to them. In the real world, as opposed to reef aquaria, food is never in short supply; on a coral reef, no coral, soft coral, or any suspension-feeding animal is likely to be limited by food. All other things being equal, the animals will have enough food to reach an adult size and persist to reproduce without any problems."

 

(Dr. Ronald Shimek from Reefkeeping, Sept. 2003, "Oh Bartender, I'll have a glass of 'Old Agression' on the rocks..")

 

 

Cheers,

Fred

[Xx_de_xX]

Originally posted by nalbar

its YOU who needs to do research

[EtOH_is_good]

i can't believe that nalbar and fac wny are so heatedly discussing the point i think both you guys have contributed some very good answers to the beginner section. imo, if we lost either of you because of this discussion it would be a major loss to nr. mariposa asked a very non-specific question esp since no tank inhabitants were included. everything is relative to what you are have and are planning to do.

[FAC_WNY]

No worries, EtOH, I'm not going anywhere..lol..its a forum. And he has every right to share his opinion, just as I do. And if we get more ACTUAL FACT into the discussion, maybe people will learn from it..

 

Cheers,

Fred

[EtOH_is_good]

thank god, fac. i didn't want to be left alone here in the beginner section dispensing my poor advice. now, what was the last question?

[mariposa11]

WOW!!!! I know how to ask the right questions to push buttons ehh? ANYWAY, I currently have a damsel and LR. I am moving in two weeks so when I get it transfered, I"m going to let it sit a week or so to make sure its stable from the move. ( No worries, we are moving right across the highway)

 

Here are the prospects:

Clean up crew

a few hermits

a few bumblebee snails

[mariposa11]

Ooopps:

 

cont.

a cleaner shrimp

a clown

a feather duster

zoos

I like christmas tree rock...but I may have to wait until I'm way more established.

 

Let me know more specifically of what I need )

 

Thanks

[FAC_WNY]

Never talk about flow, skimmers, lighting, calcium supplementation, or refugiums on reef forums..lol.

 

 

Cheers,

Fred

[nalbar]

i dont take any of this personally EtOH. however, it is interesting that i am told to research, yet when the reseach is posted it in no way disputes my position. Xx, once again, mis stated a position, and perhaps that is my fault. he, like others, confuses what is NEEDED to thrive with what people want to provide. what FAC and i are talking about i consider VERY high flow. it is my position that 10X is all you could possibly need in a nano, SPS or no. there is a HUGE difference between a 100+ tanks flow needs and a nanos needs.

 

but people think, 'if 10X is good, then 30X must be better'. my REAL problem is they state that to beginners like it is written in stone. like all the science is 'proven'. when it comes to open ocean reefs absolutely VERY LITTLE is 'proven'. virtually all of it is conjecture. for instance, just because a particular coral is in a high flow area (open ocean) does NOT mean it cant thrive in lower flow in controlled conditions. in fact, MANY tanks do just that! but that also is anectodal, NOT 'science'.

 

and borneman above? he would be the first to say just that!

 

my original statement still holds... the need for high flow in most tanks is a myth.

 

 

btw, most high flow tanks look like crap because of all the equipment. can i 'prove' that? no i cannot. but then, no one can 'prove' they look good.

 

 

nalbar

[EtOH_is_good]

see. mariposa doesn't even have corals right now. mariposa, planning on keeping a fish only tank or adding some coral? unless you really like the damsel, better remove it when you take down the tank for the move. real bugger to take out in the future.

 

edit not to sound too stupid but my response was being formulated while mariposa "finished" the list.

[nalbar]

Originally posted by FAC_WNY

Never talk about flow, skimmers, lighting, calcium supplementation, or refugiums on reef forums..lol.  

 

 

Cheers,  

Fred

 

myths, the 'need' for EVERY single one is a myth. well, you do need SOME light. but not as much as some say.

 

 

nalbar

[FAC_WNY]

I think the "looks like crap" thing is very disputable. I'd wager that my new tank will be much "cleaner" looking than most nanos, as all of the "junk" will be in a sump. And I never said that very high flow is a necessity in every setup...however...in certain setups it is an absolute necessity. High flow has certain undeniable benefits in certain systems...and as a rule, most people don't have nearly enough flow in their diplays. But, like most things in reefing, one person can do something one way and it may work for them, while another can do the exact opposite and it will work for them. All we can do is offer advice on what has worked for us in the past, its up to the new reefer to decide which method works better for them or that they prefer. I'll defer to Borneman again for my last comments...

 

"To repeat, corals require an aquarium, seawater at the right temperature and salinity, waterflow, light, food, bicarbonate/buffer, and calcium."

 

Everything else just makes life a little easier (sometimes..lol).

 

 

Cheers,

Fred

[mariposa11]

So how about the rest of the future critters? Will the stock and the rio 50 be enough and the stock lighting...plus, right now my temp is stable at 83, so I hope that isn't too hot. Not really saavy with a power drill for fan installation...but heard that its not horrible for the temp to be higher, just might be less oxygenated and possible diseases thrive better....it is tx summer heat...who knows! )

[EtOH_is_good]

the quality of your set up depends on who you ask. there are so many "successful" ways of running with what you want. you know who supports low/high tech. i forget what the lights are on the current cube, but i'm pretty sure it'll keep the zoanthids alive, but not necessarily with their best coloration. don't know about the feather duster. x-mas tree rock (Porites sp.) will need more lights. you're beginning to push into the higher temps for reefs which will cause stress. be careful

 

edited a typo

[mariposa11]

Yeah, I know...I'm hopeing with my new home, that I will fix that problem with the a new placement of the cube. Hopefully under a fan or vent or something. As experienced and noted amoung nanoers, it is a heat pit! ) If worse comes to worse I'll get a mini fan and have it on low next to it and see how that works...will be able to tell in a month or so

[nalbar]

Originally posted by FAC_WNY

I think the "looks like crap" thing is very disputable.  I'd wager that my new tank will be much "cleaner" looking than most nanos, as all of the "junk" will be in a sump.  And I never said that very high flow is a necessity in every setup...however...in certain setups it is an absolute necessity.  High flow has certain undeniable benefits in certain systems...and as a rule, most people don't have nearly enough flow in their diplays.  But, like most things in reefing, one person can do something one way and it may work for them, while another can do the exact opposite and it will work for them.  All we can do is offer advice on what has worked for us in the past, its up to the new reefer to decide which method works better for them or that they prefer.  I'll defer to Borneman again for my last comments...

 

"To repeat, corals require an aquarium, seawater at the right temperature and salinity, waterflow, light, food, bicarbonate/buffer, and calcium."

 

Everything else just makes life a little easier (sometimes..lol).  

 

 

Cheers,  

Fred

 

 

there is not a single thing i can disagree with here FAC. well maybe the 'as a rule most dont have enough flow' part. i think most have more than enough! (notice i did not say 'too much', there is a difference!)

 

i just hate it when it is implied that this hobby is complicated and/or expensive. it CAN be neither. in fact, it can be VERY cheap (as hobbies go) and simple as hell. the 'complications/expenses' are almost always voluntary, a choice a reefer makes because of what they want to keep. you want clams? well, you are going to dose all sorts of silly stuff AND you better have metal halide lights. but the person who makes that CHOICE should not then tell beginners 'you have to dose and you have to have metal halide'. yet they do.

 

nalbar