RO and hard water

[81Shaun]

Hello, I just got the aqua fx RO unit and was curious about hard water going through the unit. I notice hard water is in my tap and was wondering what one could expect out of the unit as far as membrane life span? now I do understand that soft water is reccomended but do not have a water softener in my home and from what ive seen there a bit to pricy although I did see a electronic scale blaster device that wouldn't be to expensive but see mixed reviews about them and was wondering if one would benefit me or not ? so do any of you use hard water through your RO unit ? would replacing the sediment filter and the carbon block frequently help with keeping the membrane life span longer? im only going to be using RO for a 24 gallon nano cube only and my unit is the 4 stage 50 gpd . any help with this would be good. thanks

 

 

I just got my handheld TDS meter today and im getting a reading from 398 to as high as 450 ppm

[malawian]

ouch.

 

There are certainly others who know more and I hope they chime in (thats your que AZDesertRat) but my thought would be that you would want as much protection for your membrane as possible. I would maybe get another pair of stages (canisters are pretty cheap) and run something like a 5 micron sediment-1 micron sediment-carbon block-carbon block-RO-DI. With such high TDS it sounds like you may exhaust membranes faster than you go through underwear.

[mt4sure]

81Shaun you have some pretty high TDS incoming from your water source to your ro unit. You would definitely want to invest in a dual sediment filter as malawian suggested and replace those as needed when flow becomes too restricted over time from blockage (good thing is sediment filters are inexpensive). Other thing you might want to think about is investing in a dual stage di resin so that you don't burn through the di resin too fast. You can add a inline TDS meter between the di resins to check on the TDS readings for depletion. If you see a large number gain on the TDS (incoming to 2nd di resin used to be 78 and now its at 150) number then you should remove out the 1st stage and flip the 2nd stage in there and add the new di resin into the now empty 2nd stage. This is a good money saving tip. Others might be able to better chime in on other possible ways to help cut down your costs from the high TDS that you have though.

[81Shaun]

okay truthfully im confused by this . are you talking about me purchasing a couple of those ad on canister filter? sorry completely new to this. my ro hasnt been hooked up actually just purchased it and it should be here today sometime. would a water softener be the best route to go in a situation like this ? it would be expensive but in the long run if it would work it to me would be worth it plus tired white calcium all the time. would it fix the problem with the ro? plus my tank or nothing is set up just buying a little at a time. a couple guys on another forum has pretty high tds and told me id be fine he lives in arizona his reads 600-700 TDS and he doesn't use a water softener and he is using his. im just wanting to do things right just getting kind of stressful but im just wanting to do things right and what best. thanks

[malawian]

here are some RO canisters and clips to hold them together. canisters are $14 and clips to mount canisters are 8-15.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-reverse-osmosis-filters-systems/canisters-brackets-clips.html

 

Then you just get a couple filters to go in them. Here are some sediment filters and carbon blocks:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-reverse-osmosis-filters-systems/reverse-osmosis-filters/carbon-blocks-sediment-filters.html

 

where did you buy your current kit from? do you know its specs?

 

also I dont know if using softener helps much. seems to me like youre not really taking much out of the water its just another thing that has to be removed at the end of the day but maybe Im misunderstanding how softeners work. perhaps you can get away with what youre using however I can say that it is awfully nice not to have replaced an RO membrane or DI resin in 3 years because the water that goes into them is already so clean...

[AZDesertRat]

While all membrane manufacturers recommend using softened water if available many users don't have that option. Softeners are the absolute best thing you can do for a membrane, they love softened water since it has done much of the work for it already.

 

Things you can do to maximize the membrane life are to ensure the waste ratio is close to 4:1, waste to good. You can measure this with a measuring cup and watch or clock. First measure the waste flow for exactly one minute and record the level then do the same for the treated flow. The waste should be as close to 4 times the treated flow as possible. If its a little more that fine but if it is much less or quite a bit more then you might want to look into a capillary tube flow restrictor ($5-$6) that you adjust to fit your exact water conditions.

 

Another is to make larger batches of water each time versus frequent small batches. If you can make 3+ gallons at a time this allows the membrane to cleanse or rinse itself via the waste ratio, that 4 gallons or waste per one gallon of treated is carrying the TDS from tha treated gallon away and rinsing the membrane. When you make small batches it doesn't get cleaned and the TDS eventually builds up and solidifies on the membrane until it fails.

 

DO NOT add extra stages in front of the system, more is not better! Less is better with RO as everything you add infront reduces the pressure available to the membrane lowering its efficiency or rejection rate even further. At the first filter change I would look at better replacement filters, not more.

 

My tap TDS is as high as 850 and never below 530 and I used unsoftened water for the first 15 years I had RO and RO/DI systems. It does shorten the membrane life but you can help the situation using the steps above.

[jedimasterben]

I would shy away from running multiple prefilters unless you have very high TSS (suspended solids, not dissolved solids). That is the only thing that sediment filters can remove.

 

Use one 0.5 micron sediment filter and one 0.5 micron carbon block and change them every six months and you will protect your RO membrane.

 

AZdesertrat's incoming TDS is somewhere in the 700 range IIRC. He uses the above recommended single sediment and carbon blocks and he's had his membrane for five years, and it continues to have a 99%+ rejection rate.

 

What is your line pressure? What is the TDS of the RO only (not the DI)? Are you running the recommended 4:1 waste ratio?

 

EDIT: DAMMIT HE BEAT ME TO IT lol

[malawian]

good point, hadn't thought about the drop in pressure that would happen. glad you chimed in AZ.

[81Shaun]

here are some RO canisters and clips to hold them together. canisters are $14 and clips to mount canisters are 8-15.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-reverse-osmosis-filters-systems/canisters-brackets-clips.html

 

Then you just get a couple filters to go in them. Here are some sediment filters and carbon blocks:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-reverse-osmosis-filters-systems/reverse-osmosis-filters/carbon-blocks-sediment-filters.html

 

where did you buy your current kit from? do you know its specs?

 

also I dont know if using softener helps much. seems to me like youre not really taking much out of the water its just another thing that has to be removed at the end of the day but maybe Im misunderstanding how softeners work. perhaps you can get away with what youre using however I can say that it is awfully nice not to have replaced an RO membrane or DI resin in 3 years because the water that goes into them is already so clean...

I purchased it from drsfostersmith for like 144 on sale. here are the specs are they good ?

 

4-stage RO/DI units produce ultra pure water for aquarium hobbyists that demand the best. AquaFX Barracuda RO/DI Units adds another filtration stage to its premier water filtration technology for TDS rejection rates beyond 90%! Standard unit comes with a high efficiency, 1-micron sediment pre-filter (Stage 1), high-capacity chlorine and Volatile Organic Compound (VOC's) removing Carbon Block (Stage 2) and a special TFC/HI-S RO membrane (Stage 3). The RO membrane is a TFC sheeted element boasting high silicate rejection. Mixed bed DI resin filter (Stage 4) polishes RO water for ultra pure water of the highest quality.

[81Shaun]

I would shy away from running multiple prefilters unless you have very high TSS (suspended solids, not dissolved solids). That is the only thing that sediment filters can remove.

 

Use one 0.5 micron sediment filter and one 0.5 micron carbon block and change them every six months and you will protect your RO membrane.

 

AZdesertrat's incoming TDS is somewhere in the 700 range IIRC. He uses the above recommended single sediment and carbon blocks and he's had his membrane for five years, and it continues to have a 99%+ rejection rate.

 

What is your line pressure? What is the TDS of the RO only (not the DI)? Are you running the recommended 4:1 waste ratio?

 

 

EDIT: DAMMIT HE BEAT ME TO IT lol

it has a 1 micron sediment is that bad? as far as my lines pressure im not sure as I just got this thing in the mail today. and how would I test the TDS from RO only? I don't have a tds meter that is built in ive just got one of those EZ TDS blue units. how am I suppose to use that thing ? getting different readings from different temperatures. instructions didnt say so I went to the website it says 77 so I sat my water to that temp and checked. one last thing im not sure how much pressure im getting if my water doesnt have high enough pressure what do i do with the filters ? do they need to stay wet? or just empty the thing ? sorry so many questions. oh and according to the manufacture using hard water pretty much voids warranty.

[81Shaun]

While all membrane manufacturers recommend using softened water if available many users don't have that option. Softeners are the absolute best thing you can do for a membrane, they love softened water since it has done much of the work for it already.

 

Things you can do to maximize the membrane life are to ensure the waste ratio is close to 4:1, waste to good. You can measure this with a measuring cup and watch or clock. First measure the waste flow for exactly one minute and record the level then do the same for the treated flow. The waste should be as close to 4 times the treated flow as possible. If its a little more that fine but if it is much less or quite a bit more then you might want to look into a capillary tube flow restrictor ($5-$6) that you adjust to fit your exact water conditions.

 

Another is to make larger batches of water each time versus frequent small batches. If you can make 3+ gallons at a time this allows the membrane to cleanse or rinse itself via the waste ratio, that 4 gallons or waste per one gallon of treated is carrying the TDS from tha treated gallon away and rinsing the membrane. When you make small batches it doesn't get cleaned and the TDS eventually builds up and solidifies on the membrane until it fails.

 

DO NOT add extra stages in front of the system, more is not better! Less is better with RO as everything you add infront reduces the pressure available to the membrane lowering its efficiency or rejection rate even further. At the first filter change I would look at better replacement filters, not more.

 

My tap TDS is as high as 850 and never below 530 and I used unsoftened water for the first 15 years I had RO and RO/DI systems. It does shorten the membrane life but you can help the situation using the steps above.

wow pretty high TDS. okay wont mess with the extra stages. Yeah I would be making 5 gallon or more each time. do I need a flush kit? this system didnt come with one and there $16.00 so I would need 4 gallon of bad water to each gallon of good.? im not sure how much pressure ive got what should I do if hook uni up and im not getting the minimum 40? what should I do with the filters? ive never messed with this kind of stuff before and according to the manufacture using hard water pretty much voids warranty. anyhow thanks much here are the specs ,

 

4-stage RO/DI units produce ultra pure water for aquarium hobbyists that demand the best. AquaFX Barracuda RO/DI Units adds another filtration stage to its premier water filtration technology for TDS rejection rates beyond 90%! Standard unit comes with a high efficiency, 1-micron sediment pre-filter (Stage 1), high-capacity chlorine and Volatile Organic Compound (VOC's) removing Carbon Block (Stage 2) and a special TFC/HI-S RO membrane (Stage 3). The RO membrane is a TFC sheeted element boasting high silicate rejection. Mixed bed DI resin filter (Stage 4) polishes RO water for ultra pure water of the highest quality.

[AZDesertRat]

No, don't waste your money on a flush kit, they have no proven documented value other than to lighten your wallet.

Aqua FX are average quality, not bad but not the best. If it did not come with an inline pressure gauge you will want one, it is an important troubleshooting tool along with a handheld TDS meter.

 

I noticed you did not post the micron range of the carbon block, it should be equal to the sediment filter or also 1 micron for good performance and unit life. Hopefully the DI is a full size vertical 20 oz refillable type and not a horizontal that short circuits or channels and does not hold as much resin.

[81Shaun]

hi, ya unit has a built in gauge on front. the di canister is refillable. didnt no that until a little bit ago though. the carbon doesn't say in the specs what micron range the carbon block is but it came with a replacement that says 5/10 micron rating. as far as a TDS meter goes I got one of the TDS EZ handheld units. doesn't say on the package what temperature to use on so I looked it up from my understanding is that you need to use 77 degree temperature for the most accurate results?

[AZDesertRat]

The TDS-EZ is a very low end meter, it is not temperature compensated so lacks the accuracy of their TDS-3, TDS-4TM or AP-1 which only cost $5-$10 more which are ATC compensated, 2% accuracy versus 3% and have built in digital thermometers.

 

First filter change at 6 months replace the sediment and carbon block filters with either both 1.0 micron versions or 0.5 micron which is much better.

 

COLD water only, never ever, let me repeat, never use warm or hot water or try to blend or temper the two. This is the quickest way to ruin a membrane there is. Remember being in the shower nd someone flushed the toilet or started the washing machine? You got your tush scalded! Same thing happens to the RO membrane when you try to blend for 77 degrees and they cannot take anything over 113 degrees which is not really that hot. They work better and give you lower TDS with cold water only. Open the cold water supply all the way and use as is.

 

77 degrees is a number used by all membrane manufacturers as a stadard, it has nothing to do with best performance.

[81Shaun]

hello, actually 77 I was referring to the tds unit to get the best accuracy. to be honest I was going to go for a a warm but not no where hot temperature. i never heard of anyone just running strait cold water through one but then again I don't know anything regarding this stuff but im glad you told me about that. so I should pick up a atc handheld instead of the one I got? ughh wish id just asked here in the first place. oh and about the replacement filters wonder what would interchange? also when you were asking about the di container what is that about ? I went to the manufacture site and they want $28.00 for 1.5 refill change and I can just purchase it for 1 refill on drsfostersmith and looks like all id have to do is just exchange the old di unit out for the new one. anyhow thank you very much for helping me because id have everything screwed up.

[AZDesertRat]

Everyone uses cold water only, or should be anyway.

Your system uses standard 10" replacement filters. I would look at replacements from vendors like Spectrapure or Buckeye Hydro as I know both only use high quality, low micron replacements in their reef quality systems. Spectrapure custom blends all of their own DI resins in house based on thousands of hours of testing so you know you are getting only the freshest, best performing resin for your money. You can buy bulk refills or individual replacement cartridges or even super capacity replacements with 30% more capacity than anyone else offers for only a few $$ more. Don't buy DI from a LFS or online fish store vendor, buy only from a RO vendor who does that as their primary business so you get fresh resin and not something sitting on a shelf since it has a short shelf life anyway.

[81Shaun]

great so I just checked aqua fx website and it says they now offer a"ultra high capacity carbon block " but doesn't say how many micron so im going to email them and find out. if its not a 1 or lower im just going to purchase it from spectrapure as you suggested. now how much water pressure should I keep ? I see its suppose to be anywhere from 40-80 but does it really matter? if so what should I aim for ?

[AZDesertRat]

Yes, pressure is very important. More is better in this case as membranes function better the higher the pressure is up to about 150 psi. The difference between 40 psi and 80 psi makes the DI resin last twice as long since the RO membrane gains about 2% to 3% efficiency at the higher pressure. Turn your cold wate rsupply all the way on and see what you have available at the membrane. If it is less than 40 psi you may need a booster pump, anything over 40 is servicable and anything over say 60 up to 100 is great. I run my RO booster pump at 100 psi even though I have 68 psi at the tap to increase the removal efficiency and to increase the flow too.

 

You really have no control over the pressure at the tap other than to add a RO booster if it is too low. It is what it is.

[Rehype]

Yes, pressure is very important. More is better in this case as membranes function better the higher the pressure is up to about 150 psi. The difference between 40 psi and 80 psi makes the DI resin last twice as long since the RO membrane gains about 2% to 3% efficiency at the higher pressure. Turn your cold wate rsupply all the way on and see what you have available at the membrane. If it is less than 40 psi you may need a booster pump, anything over 40 is servicable and anything over say 60 up to 100 is great. I run my RO booster pump at 100 psi even though I have 68 psi at the tap to increase the removal efficiency and to increase the flow too.

 

You really have no control over the pressure at the tap other than to add a RO booster if it is too low. It is what it is.

 

 

Hey AZ could you recommend a good booster pump? (i have a 75gpd unit)

[jedimasterben]

The Aquatec 8800 is a good one, but AZ may know of any that are better. I love mine.

[81Shaun]

thanks so much man. hey would the spectrapure 90 be better? thinking about just returning this unit and going after a spectrapure 90

[Rehype]

The Aquatec 8800 is a good one, but AZ may know of any that are better. I love mine.

 

thanks ben I was thinking of buying the aquatec 6800. How many gpd is your unit?

[jedimasterben]

thanks so much man. hey would the spectrapure 90 be better? thinking about just returning this unit and going after a spectrapure 90

Spectrapure is better than pretty much all the others, but as for the physical unit they're about the same, only the membrane and DI resins are different. Sediment and carbon blocks (except for the very, very expensive ones) are pretty generic, just get 0.5 micron in each.

thanks ben I was thinking of buying the aquatec 6800. How many gpd is your unit?

You'll need the 8800, not the 6800. The 6800 is for very low output RO units (in the 30GPD range). My unit is around 150GPD with the booster pump.

[AZDesertRat]

Housings and fittings are as different as the filters, membranes or DI resin. You will often find no name varieties that are not ANSI/NSF or Unifrom Plumbing Code rated or tested and that can be a deal breaker, literally.

Systems are not all the same even though they may look like it physically. Let someone like Spectrapure do the research and development for you. They have a huge FAQ and tech section on their website or take a look at their Sponsors DForum over on RC for many many articles on why they are different and why they cost you less to own and operate.

 

Yes, the Aquatec 8800 is the correct pump for a 75 GPD system, you will burn up a 6800 as it cannot keep up under pressure. The 8800 is rated to around 125 GPD, 150 is pushing it.

[81Shaun]

okay thanks guy at the local fish shop has one left suppose to be hold for me. he told me that is what hes using in his shop but should have gotten it then. might just keep both units and set aqua fx up at my parents. just see good things about those spectrapure units and thought id give it a try. wonder if the spectrapure units would perform better using the hard water .