red sea alkalinity test end color

[NanoTopia]

Thanks for this thread. i'm struggling with my kit. My card shows Orange, and the color slowly changes to orange, not immediately. This is image here is the first switch to orange, and it's quite pale. The Orange on the card is much deeper, which i can get to with much more added. But it's certainly not a one drop sudden color change. This photo makes the fluid look more orange than the card, which is odd, because the card looks accurate.

 

 

Mine is orange too, not pink. Are we looking for that pale orange or the dark orange? There is a huge difference between the two. I do get that almost colorless stage talked about in Nanotopias post.

 

 

If you add drops slowly, one at a time and mix, you should see the initial blue change to a pinkish colour before going to orange. Orange is too far, you would have passed the end point by maybe 2-5 drops or so. If you are not seeing a change from blue to blue/pink to a more pinkish colour you may have an old test kit. Check the expiry dates, I only trust test kits for 6 months after I start using them, regardless of the expiry date.

 

If you are not seeing pink at all I would contact RedSea regarding your test kit if it is newly opened and within the expiry date.

[NanoTopia]

Almost at the end point, add one drop at a time, swirling between each drop.

This is the end point equivalence point.

This is too far, you passed the end point equivalence point and are now at or beyond the end point.

[eolith]

nope, no red or pink ever shows up, one drop at a time. Further, the card is ORANGE, not red or pink. Until I call Red Sea tomorrow, anyone have any info on that?

[NanoTopia]

 

Alkalinity. you are looking for a pink colour as opposed to an orange colour ( Dazza 1304 has posted some pictures in a thread started by Sheep600fx , picture 1 in post 6 is what you’re looking for and many thanks to Daryl for posting them) In fact the true end point of the KH test is one drop before the pink which is an almost colorless point which really is difficult to see. Since one drop of KH is equivalent to 0.15 dKH, (which is insignificant for aquariums) we decided to set the end point at the one drop passed the true end point as we thought that it is much easier to identify. Therefore look out for an almost colourless liquid in the vial and stop at the first sign of pinkness.

 

Magnesium . One of the important issues with the magnesium kit is being able to recognize the end point. When the blue end point is first reached is disappears very quickly. We write about this in the instructions but many do not fully understand the importance of this information. The blue color of the end point disappears and the liquid returns almost to the previous color. Most titrations maintain the end point when it is reached and therefore this is a very unusual instruction and differs from many other makes. Stop at the first sign of a blue liquid in the vial.

 

Calcium There doesn’t seem to be any concerns with identifying the end point on the Calcium test but for completeness, stop when you see a blue liquid in the vial.

 

 

Kevin at RedSea wrote this above ^^, he also confirmed the end point photo I attached as the end point for the Alk test yesterday. I would not go by the colour on the card, it is wrong, and I agree very deceiving.

 

 

This is also of interest regarding titrations...

 

"Though equivalence point and endpoint are used interchangeably, they are different terms. Equivalence point is the theoretical completion of the reaction: the volume of added titrant at which the number of moles of titrant is equal to the number of moles of analyte, or some multiple thereof (as in polyprotic acids). Endpoint is what is actually measured, a physical change in the solution as determined by an indicator or an instrument mentioned above.^[25]

There is a slight difference between the endpoint and the equivalence point of the titration. This error is referred to as an indicator error, and it is indeterminate." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titration

 

 

So End Point is not really what we are looking for anyway, we are looking for the equivalence point in the reaction.

[Archaic37]

Just did the test and was.able to get that color telling me my tank is at 8.5.

[eolith]

we'll see what they say tomorrow. If they solution is coming out orange, and the card is orange, then the supposed error is consistent within their product, which is unusual. Either way, they'll give me the answer tomorrow.

[GTi]

I have suffered in silence about this for a while - I thought it was just me! I did chemistry at high school and never remember titrations being this difficult to determine when complete!

 

I think this is why I haven't been testing as often as I should - the basic tests of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and not needed on my mature systems and the titrations for Mg, Ca and KH are more hassle and I'm not always sure of the result anyway!

 

My Hanna meter does a nice job for phosphate but is always 0.00 (maybe I should test some tap water as a sanity check).

 

Thanks for starting the thread.

[eolith]

So I spoke with Hannah at Red Sea, she said we should definitely be getting a "Salmon" color (pink-red). I sent here my picture and a link to this thread (she's the one that tests the aquariums in the office) and she said she's unaware of any orange kits. They're sending me a replacement kit (mine also had the Ca "A" bottle clearly leaking at some point).

[NanoTopia]

So I spoke with Hannah at Red Sea, she said we should definitely be getting a "Salmon" color (pink-red). I sent here my picture and a link to this thread (she's the one that tests the aquariums in the office) and she said she's unaware of any orange kits. They're sending me a replacement kit (mine also had the Ca "A" bottle clearly leaking at some point).

 

Titrants are sensitive to temperature, air, time, and yes leaking bottles.

 

Glad RedSea is sorting you out. They are a first rate company and have good customer service. They are not perfect but their effort is well noted in my books and I support any company making an honest effort in this business

[Archaic37]

So I spoke with Hannah at Red Sea, she said we should definitely be getting a "Salmon" color (pink-red). I sent here my picture and a link to this thread (she's the one that tests the aquariums in the office) and she said she's unaware of any orange kits. They're sending me a replacement kit (mine also had the Ca "A" bottle clearly leaking at some point).

Mine had the leaking Ca A bottle too.. but yet i get the salmon color in my test. At least they are sending you a new one. What I don't understand is why the final color on the card is no where near what we are getting (salmon vs orange gold on the card).

[NanoTopia]

Mine had the leaking Ca A bottle too.. but yet i get the salmon color in my test. At least they are sending you a new one. What I don't understand is why the final color on the card is no where what we are getting.

 

I agree, but with most colour cards the colours are off and open to interpretation. The colour on the Alkalinity card is way off and should be corrected IMO to avoid further confusion IMO. Something they could, or maybe already have changed for the the next print batch.

 

As a note: I think the pink colour is the equivalency point and the orange colour is the end point of the titration. The difference between the two (indicator error) is marginal and maybe less than 0.5 dKH. As a comparison, the ELOS Alkalinity test measures in increments of 0.5 dKH (0.5 = one drop), most people are not be overly concerned with this interpretation or margin of error of +/-0.5 dKH created by the indicator error.

[eolith]

That would make since if I was getting a pink color. Mine goes straight from blue to orange.

[NanoTopia]

That would make since if I was getting a pink color. Mine goes straight from blue to orange.

Likely expired or faulty reagent. The new one should produce the stages as described in this thread.

[eolith]

ok, I got my new kit, and guess what? The Ca "C" bottle was frozen, and the Mg "C" bottle was leaking inside the kit. Also, the new kit has orange cards, the rep I talked to this time (Pinky) said it's supposed to be a Peach color.

 

Here's a photo of my first card, and the new card, which have different numbers at the top, but are both showing a teal start and an orange finish. Pinky said you should keep adding reagent until you get the color matching the car as closely as possible, not the first time it changes color.

 

 

Here's the email I sent with my photo attached:

Pinky & Hannah,

 

I just spoke with Pinky over the phone, so I’m sending this to both of you.

 

Here is the new card I received, also orange. Pinky tells me it’s a “peach” color, which implies orange.

 

Hannah told me it’s supposed to be a salmon (pink) color, your youtube video (from Nov 2010:

) shows the color going from blue to a dark purple to a pink color.

 

Pinky tells me to keep going through the gradual change until I get a color that matches the card, which should be a deep orange.

 

Here’s the thread (I post as “eolith”) where other users have deep pink/red colors, and Steve apparently told this person that pink is the desired end color:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/339429-red-sea-alkalinity-test-end-color/

 

Further, in my replacement pack:

1. The Mg “C” bottle has leaked inside the container (which was packaged very nicely and undamaged). Whereas last time my Ca “A” bottle had leaked.

2. The Ca “C” bottle was frozen (granted, it’s rather cold outside right now, was below zero overnight here). Will this affect my tests, is it usable once it thaws?

 

As a consumer, this doesn’t breed confidence in your product when I keep getting containers with fluid leaked throughout, and your own website video doesn’t match my product. I was referred to red sea as a reliable source for testing, frankly I’m not so sure right now.

 

 

Bottom line, there is a lot of confusion about how these test kits are supposed to be used (including among you folks at Red Sea). We just want to know that we’re getting solid, accurate results, and that we’re using the test kit appropriately. Please issue some kind of statement, or make a new video, showing what is the correct method and color to use when making these kits. There are many of us that are confused about your products, and that means people will likely switch to some other product, which you certainly don’t want. Also, it might be a good idea to make sure all the Red Sea employees are on the same page and know what your products look like, how they’re to be used, and what color the results should be.

 

Thanks for your help on this!

 

Finally, I plan on posting a video of my results tonight.

[eolith]

Ok, so the new kit worked according to the video shown above, and NanoTopia's pictures. The new card, #22770.B13 (old was #22770A11) still shows an orange color, though with more of a red tint.

 

So, if you are getting the orange end color, call them and get a new kit. I also had a bad Calcium test in this same kit, new kit resolved that, too.

 

 

Videos as promised:

 

Incorrect, Teal -> Green -> Orange:

 

Correct, Teal -> Purple -> Salmon/Pink:

[basser1]

These are why I went with the Hanna Alk checker. I have found it to be very reliable and don't have to mess with color changes, just my 2 pennies.

[Eisernes]

Ok, so the new kit worked according to the video shown above, and NanoTopia's pictures. The new card, #22770.B13 (old was #22770A11) still shows an orange color, though with more of a red tint.

 

So, if you are getting the orange end color, call them and get a new kit. I also had a bad Calcium test in this same kit, new kit resolved that, too.

 

 

Videos as promised:

 

Incorrect, Teal -> Green -> Orange:

 

Correct, Teal -> Purple -> Salmon/Pink:

Mine isn't like either one of those. Mine goes teal-purple-orange. I never get green and I never get pink. I emailed them to see what I have to do to get a new one.

[RedSeaKev]

Hi Folks, I'm going to add a little more confusion sorry.

 

The important colours here are the start and end point colours, if at the start of the test you get a blue colouration then the test is fine, both the yellow and peach end points are correct, if however you get a yellow at the start of the test there is an issue with the reagent.

 

We have tested extensity the batches that give the yellow end point and the results are accurate.

 

It is very important to ensure caps are replaced on reagent bottles ASAP after use, also ensure they are closed tightly air (which carries moisture) can ruin the shelf life of the reagent.

[eolith]

Agreed, take good care of your equipment, also mark/label each vial/syringe so you don't cross-contaminate; and clean thoroughly with RODI or distilled water after each use. Then prior to each test, rinse each container with the sample water to be tested. In my case, both kits are brand new, shipped to my house. The first kit that had two bad tests in it was from drsfosterandsmith.com, the second was sent directly from Red Sea.

 

Kev, I'm concerned about your statements of "Yellow" end colors. I've only seen cards with orange on them, and people report having red/pink cards, but I've not seen anything about "yellow" yet. Can you provide a reference number on the card itself for the kits that have yellow end colors? (For instance, the A11 and B13 identifiers on my cards)

 

Finally, is this variation in colors due to changing the tests themselves, or batches from different vendors?

[penfold2]

Agreed, take good care of your equipment, also mark/label each vial/syringe so you don't cross-contaminate; and clean thoroughly with RODI or distilled water after each use. Then prior to each test, rinse each container with the sample water to be tested. In my case, both kits are brand new, shipped to my house. The first kit that had two bad tests in it was from drsfosterandsmith.com, the second was sent directly from Red Sea.

 

Kev, I'm concerned about your statements of "Yellow" end colors. I've only seen cards with orange on them, and people report having red/pink cards, but I've not seen anything about "yellow" yet. Can you provide a reference number on the card itself for the kits that have yellow end colors? (For instance, the A11 and B13 identifiers on my cards)

 

Finally, is this variation in colors due to changing the tests themselves, or batches from different vendors?

 

I think he's saying that oxidation (or some other chemical reaction) may cause the end color to change from red/pink to orange/yellow, but targeting the distinct change in color will give you accurate results regardless of what the final color is. The end color on my alkalinity kit changed from red to orange over time, much like the colors you showed above. The color change still seemed to occur at the expected alkalinity value however, so the kit may still have been accurate when targeting the sudden change in color rather than a particular hue. Just to be safe though, I switched to a LaMotte kit that uses a separate dye tablet which doesn't seem to suffer from oxidation over time. It's easier to read with a color card that always matches, and it gives me peace of mind.

[eolith]

Right, I was agreeing with the need to take care of your testing kits (as part of your equipment)

 

awesome avatar of Penfold, btw.

[GHill762]

interesting thread. I always have trouble with deciding when I'm done.. I might "call it" at the wrong time, but I'm consistent about it, so if I'm doing it wrong, I'm doing it wrong consistently.

 

any idea where I can get new plastic tips for the syringes? I somehow managed to break my calcium one.. does red sea offer replacements? or is this something I can get from somewhere local? like a medical supply shop?

[buddythelion]

And this is why I switched to Salifert.

[NanoTopia]

interesting thread. I always have trouble with deciding when I'm done.. I might "call it" at the wrong time, but I'm consistent about it, so if I'm doing it wrong, I'm doing it wrong consistently.

 

any idea where I can get new plastic tips for the syringes? I somehow managed to break my calcium one.. does red sea offer replacements? or is this something I can get from somewhere local? like a medical supply shop?

Email RedSea, I'm sure they will send you one by mail.

[GHill762]

And this is why I switched to Salifert.

are salifert tests easier? I thought about them but they are pretty pricey IIRC..?..

 

maybe I'll try them next go-around.. I'm sure this kit will expire before I use it up.. I test once or twice a month on a good month