Let's try and Find a Solution for Red Slime

[Mekanic]

This would be one of those times when it would get much worse before it could get better, as the cyanobacteria is most likely carbon limited, as well. How long did you try it for, what did your skimmate look like during dosing, what dose did you use, and what skimmer are you using?

 

Albert, cyanobacteria is red in color, therefore it reflects red spectrum. I see that all the time that people attribute lower-kelvin lighting to helping it grow, but it just can't work that way from my understanding of it.

 

I tried carbon dosing for about 2 weeks, using the dose that RHF suggested (I can pull it up if needed) along with the recommended dose of MB7. SKimmate was darker and stinkier, I liked that a lot, but the cyano EXPLODED with growth, my thoughts are since it was established it soaked up the excess carbon before the other bacteria had a chance. I'm using a SWC 160 Xtreme Cone.

[albertthiel]

This would be one of those times when it would get much worse before it could get better, as the cyanobacteria is most likely carbon limited, as well. How long did you try it for, what did your skimmate look like during dosing, what dose did you use, and what skimmer are you using?

 

Albert, cyanobacteria is red in color, therefore it reflects red spectrum. I see that all the time that people attribute lower-kelvin lighting to helping it grow, but it just can't work that way from my understanding of it.

 

Ben Cyanobacteria come in several colors not just red. They can be green or blue and there are some that are even yellow, all depending on the species, and there are many.

 

The color is determined by the relative presence of phycobilin pigments, the reddish phycoerythrin and the blue phycocyanin, which explain the color of cyanobacteria.

 

Microscopically, the blue phycocyanin pigment, the green chlorophyll, and the accessory pigments give rise to blue-green algae. Species of cyanobacteria differ in their ratios of phyocyanin and phycoerythrin and therefore in color.

 

And yes, if you do some more research, you will find that as the nanometer spectrum of a light diminishes that the ones we see in our aquariums is facilitated and that they grow faster and in greater abundance.

 

The whole topic of what color they are and what the ideal spectrum for their growth is happens to be a very complex topic as Cyanobacteria can adapt to different light frequencies, CO2 availability as their carbon source, phosphate levels, their ability to store phosphates, etc ... It is a very very complex matter ...

 

I don't think that the purpose of this thread is to get into that, as it is way too complex and differs not only by what I wrote above, but also whether they are uni- or multicellular, and what particular species is being discussed.

 

So although I am not going to disagree with you, as in some cases what you wrote is indeed correct, in many cases it is not what happens in our aquariums.

 

In addition to the spectrum, the irradiance is involved and the photoperiod of course as well.

 

I would prefer to keep this thread going as it was with hobbyists reporting on whether they had them or not and if they did how they got rid of them.

 

Note that most of my information comes from "The Biology of Cyanobacteria

 

 

 

a nearly 700 page book on everything one can possibly want to know about Cyanobacteria, and is a compendium of just about everything that has to do with cyanobacteria.

 

So I would like to stick with what I posted in the opening message to this thread and ask for all who read this to continue to submit their contributions ... and yours too of course ...

 

Thanks

 

Albert

 

 

 

 

I tried carbon dosing for about 2 weeks, using the dose that RHF suggested (I can pull it up if needed) along with the recommended dose of MB7. SKimmate was darker and stinkier, I liked that a lot, but the cyano EXPLODED with growth, my thoughts are since it was established it soaked up the excess carbon before the other bacteria had a chance. I'm using a SWC 160 Xtreme Cone.

 

Thanks for the clarification Mekanic ... so Ben knows what you based your statement on.

 

I have made a note of what you experienced.

 

Ben ... if you have any comments on why Mekanic may have had this negative experience with adding a carbon source, please do share it with us.

 

Albert

 

 

Wanted to add that UV sterilization is directly impactful to cyano if the uv is sized right

 

You would manually remove via siphon all the cyano in the tank, then install an oversized UV to burn out what's in the water

We've done this with pics in the pest algae challenge thread in nanos forum at Rc.

 

Cyano is quite impacted by it, consider a UV cheat ran as needed, nobody says it has to always be on although it would in my tanks

 

 

I've had people hook up UV sterilizers for a 300 gallon tank on a BC 14, talk about sized right...

 

 

UV is a non chemical option that should be considered, anyone posting pics would see nice after pics if you can borrow one from a local reef meeting or pond keepers club/shop

 

Cyano has a transitory phase between the air, water and substrate to be intercepted by a uv filter whereas obligate hitchhikers like dictyota invasions do not

 

Brandon :

 

You are 100% correct that UV usage is definitely one way to prevent slime algae from appearing but of course the bulb needs to be cleaned regularly (well the enclosure that it is in making sure not to touch it with your fingers as it is a special one and if oily spots are left on the quartz glass the spectrum will change (just as one should not touch MH bulbs with their bare hands).

 

Also the actual bulb needs to be changed as recommended by the manufacturer or it will not continue to perform as expected (but you knew that).

 

Thanks for that input. I was aware of that but it needed to be pointed out and you did, so thanks.

 

It's one more piece to the puzzle we now have.

 

 

Albert

 

 

Does your tank prefer vodka martini shaken or stirred? - sorry I couldn't resist! I'll try to stick to the topic. lol

 

Yes indeed ... have you had any experience with them and if so what have you done, and if not what do you attribute the fact that you did not have any to ?

 

Thanks for clarifying

[albertthiel]

I did not mean to disagree with Ben, as explained in my previous message because the topic of Cyanos is so complex and complicated ... just wanted to make that clear

 

However I would like to ask for more input from all who read this and have not yet contributed ...

 

Thanks

[jedimasterben]

He hit the nail on the head - cyanobacteria must be carbon-limited as well. I think that one would have success if they siphoned out as much as humanly possible and then began carbon dosing. I think that the cyano would definitely use the carbon, but after time the abundance of denitrifying bacteria would take over.

 

 

I wish I could test this, but I have never had cyano before.

 

I did not mean to disagree with Ben, as explained in my previous message because the topic of Cyanos is so complex and complicated ... just wanted to make that clear

 

However I would like to ask for more input from all who read this and have not yet contributed ...

 

Thanks

No offense was taken, albert. I've never seen cyano of a different color, I always thought it was funny that it was called cyanobacteria if it was actually deep red.

[albertthiel]

He hit the nail on the head - cyanobacteria must be carbon-limited as well. I think that one would have success if they siphoned out as much as humanly possible and then began carbon dosing. I think that the cyano would definitely use the carbon, but after time the abundance of denitrifying bacteria would take over.

 

I wish I could test this, but I have never had cyano before.

No offense was taken, albert. I've never seen cyano of a different color, I always thought it was funny that it was called cyanobacteria if it was actually deep red.

 

I agree with you Ben that using the carbon dosing approach may indeed be one of the solutions and that initially, since they (the cyanos) need a carbon source, there may be more of them but as more and different bacteria populate the tank the cyanos will be outcompeted and slowly disappear.

 

The other piece of the puzzle that I think we need to take into consideration is the CO2 that enters the water that the cyanos can use (according to my textbook) as a carbon source (and of course it affects the pH as well).

 

Which brings me back to a subject I covered on my other main thread ... CO2 scrubbing to remove as much of it as possible from the air that goes into the skimmer, and making sure that the inside of the house or apartment is properly vented and that there is no accumulation of CO2 inside, as that will enter the water as well.

 

Two factors we need to think about some more I guess ...

 

I have to do some more reading on the CO2 usage of cyanos and see what I can find out and how it actually affects their appearance and growth/proliferation.

 

I'll post what I find out as soon as I can make sense out of the technical parts of the cyano book and the algae books I have.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Green Cyanobacteria Picture ... they come in several colors depending on the Species

 

This is what Green ones look like:

 

 

 

 

These are the green ones that grow in a very strong patch and adhere to LR and cannot be siphoned off but need to be scraped off after removing the rock from the tank

[Mstefa1]

Albert, let me chime in here as your test subject. I've previously said that I ordered Chemicure online but yesterday my wife wanted to stop at Petco. To my suprise they had it (a little overpriced but I wanted to start early anyway). So since my order from Marine Depot already shipped, I have another bottle coming so let me know if you need a new bottle. Oh, I also want to point out that my replacement Phoenix 14k MH bulb arrived yesterday and I installed that as well. Pretty blue!

 

Yesterday I preformed a larger 6 gallon water change so that I could suck up as much cyano as possible. My parms were good before the change (except ALK down to 7 naturally) but I still try and practice good habits. Still, I don't think I was very effective at syphoning these buggers. After a few hours with the light on they started growing again.

 

I started Chemicure treatment @17:30 yesterday. I wasn't able to estimate my water volume exactly so I purposely underdosed. My tank is 24g and I dosed just under 2 scoops (each scoop is for 10g). Every crash I've read about was from people over medicating. I shut off my reactor and my Aquafuge as I said I was going to do. I left mechanical filtration in and dropped an airstone behind my false wall. Damn I hate salt creep!

 

This morning everything looks fine even though my Zoas are not open all the way. Normally after an hour with the lights on, I can already see the crap growing and producing air bubbles. So far so good! I'll have a better idea tonight if there is growth or not after a longer light peroid. I plan on changing about 8 gallons of water @ 17:30 tomorrow (48 hours) and then turning on my Aquafuge & reactor. I'll monitor until I go to work and report back on the results.

 

Just an advisement that if the treatment does erradicate the cyano however it comes back in my setup I'll contribute it to the water stored in my Aquafuge that I'm intentionally isolating to hope on keeping as much good bacteria as possible. There is absolutley no signs of Cynao in there however I'm sure there are spores suspended in the water column.

 

Albert, in that 700 page book where is the chapter that says how to annihilate these buggers in an aquarium?

 

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention. 0 ammonia yesterday, 0.25 today. hmmm

[albertthiel]

Albert, let me chime in here as your test subject. I've previously said that I ordered Chemicure online but yesterday my wife wanted to stop at Petco. To my suprise they had it (a little overpriced but I wanted to start early anyway). So since my order from Marine Depot already shipped, I have another bottle coming so let me know if you need a new bottle. Oh, I also want to point out that my replacement Phoenix 14k MH bulb arrived yesterday and I installed that as well. Pretty blue!

 

Yesterday I preformed a larger 6 gallon water change so that I could suck up as much cyano as possible. My parms were good before the change (except ALK down to 7 naturally) but I still try and practice good habits. Still, I don't think I was very effective at syphoning these buggers. After a few hours with the light on they started growing again.

 

I started Chemicure treatment @17:30 yesterday. I wasn't able to estimate my water volume exactly so I purposely underdosed. My tank is 24g and I dosed just under 2 scoops (each scoop is for 10g). Every crash I've read about was from people over medicating. I shut off my reactor and my Aquafuge as I said I was going to do. I left mechanical filtration in and dropped an airstone behind my false wall. Damn I hate salt creep!

 

This morning everything looks fine even though my Zoas are not open all the way. Normally after an hour with the lights on, I can already see the crap growing and producing air bubbles. So far so good! I'll have a better idea tonight if there is growth or not after a longer light peroid. I plan on changing about 8 gallons of water @ 17:30 tomorrow (48 hours) and then turning on my Aquafuge & reactor. I'll monitor until I go to work and report back on the results.

 

Just an advisement that if the treatment does erradicate the cyano however it comes back in my setup I'll contribute it to the water stored in my Aquafuge that I'm intentionally isolating to hope on keeping as much good bacteria as possible. There is absolutley no signs of Cynao in there however I'm sure there are spores suspended in the water column.

 

Albert, in that 700 page book where is the chapter that says how to annihilate these buggers in an aquarium?

 

Mstefa1:

 

Not sure how much you paid but I have seen it sold for $17.99 for the smallest size but it may be less expensive on line indeed.

 

Good of you to replace the light and hopefully that will eliminate that possible source of growth.

 

Yes doing what you did by siphoning out as much as you could before starting the treatment is what is recommended, and I agree that some patches can be so well attached to rock that one cannot siphon them out.

 

Remember that cyanos come in various forms: mat-like, filament-like and thin patches that are attached to rocks and other items in the tank (e.g. a barnacle shell).

 

But removing what you could was a good thing to do ... means the product has to deal with less of them in the tank.

 

You say that you started yesterday and that this morning they were back, and that is based on conversations I had with Boyd Enterprises normal. The product has not had a chance to "work" on them and start killing them off by whatever means it does (and since we do not know the composition, we do not know exactly how it works on them).

 

Note that you will not see much effect until about the second day when you water starts to produce foam at the top, and a lot of it, that kind of floats around and the bubbles of which pop but after a long time I am told.

 

Two scoops for you 24 is IMO the right dose and I would certainly not add more.

 

Let everything run its course for the full 48 hours and then siphon out whatever slime you see (it should have changed color somewhat and come loose rather easily). You can also brush some of it off if it does not come lose easily.

 

Then perform the recommended water change and put the carbon (fresh) back in the filters and start up your skimmer but watch what it does (foam heavily and sometimes I am told put tiny air bubbles in the water).

 

It should take a good 24 hours for all the product to be removed from the water.

 

Blow off your rocks to clean them some more (you should have done this before as well or if you have not done it yet you can do so today).

 

Do another 20 percent water change 24 hours later and your water should just about be back to where you should have it.

 

Test for nitrates and phosphates just to make sure they have not crept up. With all the water changes they should be really low or undetectable.

 

That is the total procedure so give it some time and you should be rid of them. Make sure to have fresh carbon in the filters when you start removing the compound and put your skimmer back in operation.

 

You could also add a Poly Filter pad from Poly Bio Marine as if it changes color, after the treatment is completed it will be an indication that there was still compound and that it is being removed by the Poly Filter (9.99 at an LFS).

 

I would not feed during the treatment although I don't think it will harm anything but why increase pollution if some of it does not get eaten.

 

Boyd Ent. does not state that you cannot feed, so the decision is up to you.

 

You should not have seen any negative reaction in the tank, and if the Zoas are closed, they should open after a few hours if not sooner.

 

And on the book ... it deals with everything that relates to them but it does not deal with cyanos in aquariums unfortunately.

 

Hope all of this helps, if not just post some more questions.

 

Albert

[Mstefa1]

Update: We are certainly winning the battle! There has been no signs of growth - no growing slime or air bubbles produced. I'm going to blow the remainder off again tonight so that the medicine can get in well and hope the filter pad pulls it out of the water column. Tomorrow when I perform the larger water change I'll have my tooth brush, turkey baster, and syphon on full alert.

 

Your absolutely right about the foam though! My airstone is foaming up the back chamber like crazy. I know you said fresh media in my reactor... What I was planning on doing was running the old media for 24 hours (after 48 hour medicated cycle) to absorb the filth & medicine as I'm sure it will get exhaused quickly then replace it with fresh stuff. Not a good idea as your recommending fresh immediately?

[albertthiel]

Update: We are certainly winning the battle! There has been no signs of growth - no growing slime or air bubbles produced. I'm going to blow the remainder off again tonight so that the medicine can get in well and hope the filter pad pulls it out of the water column. Tomorrow when I perform the larger water change I'll have my tooth brush, turkey baster, and syphon on full alert.

 

Your absolutely right about the foam though! My airstone is foaming up the back chamber like crazy. I know you said fresh media in my reactor... What I was planning on doing was running the old media for 24 hours (after 48 hour medicated cycle) to absorb the filth & medicine as I'm sure it will get exhaused quickly then replace it with fresh stuff. Not a good idea as your recommending fresh immediately?

 

You can blow whatever comes loose around, and get your mechanical filter to capture it. Clean the filter pad or floss after an hour or so, and blow water on the rocks again and get rid of whatever settled on there, and let the mechanical filter trap it, and clean it again after about an hour or so.

 

The more "stuff" you get out the better ... Also stir up the sand as that may contain a lot of detritus as well (that is if you have sand at the bottom).

 

Yes you should see a lot of bubbles on the top ... that is the result of the product you added and a sign that it is working.

 

On the carbon, if you had not used it for a long time yet then I think that would be fine for 24 hours and then replacing it with fresh carbon would be the way to go.

 

Also if you have a Poly Filter put that in once your 48 hours are over and you have done your large water change as the Poly Filter will pull out meds etc ... as well

 

Sounds like things are going well ...

 

Now all you need is patience till the 48 hours have elapsed.

 

When you put the skimmer back in service it may produce very tiny little air bubbles for a while and if that happens I would run the carbon for a few hours and then try the skimmer again ...

 

Remember the more times you blow off the rocks and behind and in between the rocks and let your mech. filter trap dirt, the better (just clean it after about an hour each time you cloud up the tank with loose detritus that comes off the rocks and from in between and behind them

 

Thanks for the update.

[albertthiel]

Recommendation for reducing the incidence of Red Slime Algae growth:

 

Based on some additional reading done, I would recommend to all who read this that the more often you clean rock Live rock and sand by blowing everything that accumulates on it and having your mechanical filter trap it, the better off you are.

 

How often: I think that every day or two is IMO not too much.

 

Just make sure you clean your mechanical filters about an hour or two after you blow the rocks off (and blow on them, between them and behind them).

 

Also clean your sand or substrate, maybe not all of it at one time, but say 1/4 and then a few days later another 1/4 and so on.

 

The less detritus remains in the tank the better off your water chemistry will be and the less of it can decompose and provide nutrients for slime and other algae.

 

FWIW

[albertthiel]

Using the VSV method of dosing a Carbon Source and Cyanos

 

There have been few posts about what those who use or have used the VSV (Vodka, Sugar, Vinegar) of carbon dosing have experienced when it relates to Cyanobacteria.

 

Did you find that it kept them at bay, or did it make them grow, or if you had them did it increase their growth?

 

Any input would be appreciated to add to the DB I already have compiled.

 

Thanks for any contributions

 

Albert

[Mstefa1]

Albert I'm going to cut to the chase... Chemicure treatment... Short term: Absolute success. Long term: TBD

[NanoTopia]

Never had cyanobacteria in any of my tanks, ever, (knock on wood), here's my recommendation based on nothing but pure speculation and a bit of reading.

 

Do not dose liquid carbon products, you are feeding the cyano bacteria. Bio-pellets should be okay if they are already running in the system.

 

Dose Zeobac or MB7 and coral snow product mixed together, (dosages can vary). Add (Zeobac/MB7) bacteria to coral snow in a test tube, mix gently. Wait 5 minutes, just let it sit. Dose mixture at night, lights off. Do this every day. I would dose very small amounts of Zeobac or MB7 and run a good skimmer 24/7. You can turn the skimmer off for 30 minutes after dosing, just don't forget to turn it back on.

 

I do this twice a week for maintenance in my tank. The theory behind this is to out compete the (good) bacteria with the (bad) cyanobacteria. The coral snow gives the bacteria a surface in which to attach before it is dosed. The snow, when added to the tank, helps the (good) bacteria settle on surfaces/substrate in the tank. Over time this will out compete the cyano. It also helps to lower DOC in the tank which helps overall.

 

I have always thought problems with cyano were more of a imbalance of bacteria that lives in the tank. Once the balance is returned, cyano should not be a problem provided you keep good maintenance of the tank and run correct spectrums.

 

Again, Albert, I have not read that bible you pictured a few posts ago, nor am I a biologist, I just thought I would offer another possible remedy for cyanobacteria.

[albertthiel]

Albert I'm going to cut to the chase... Chemicure treatment... Short term: Absolute success. Long term: TBD

 

Thanks for the feedback which is positive. Long term if you filter out the compound with carbon and do a few water changes and run your skimmer you should be just fine IMO

 

When you run the skimmer at first watch it carefully as it may foam real strongly and you may have to turn it down or you will be skimming out a lot of water

 

Also it may produce very tiny bubbles .. if it does that switch it off and let the carbon clean up the water for about 12 hours or so and then run your skimmer again.

 

I think that in the long term everything will be fine.

 

Now you need to clean the rocks and sand a few times to make sure that you remove as much detritus as possible so you do not get the red slime to come back and have to do a second treatment

 

The better you clean the rock and the sand the less the likelihood of it re-appearing.

[albertthiel]

Never had cyanobacteria in any of my tanks, ever, (knock on wood), here's my recommendation based on nothing but pure speculation and a bit of reading.

 

Do not dose liquid carbon products, you are feeding the cyano bacteria. Bio-pellets should be okay if they are already running in the system.

 

Dose Zeobac or MB7 and coral snow product mixed together, (dosages can vary). Add (Zeobac/MB7) bacteria to coral snow in a test tube, mix gently. Wait 5 minutes, just let it sit. Dose mixture at night, lights off. Do this every day. I would dose very small amounts of Zeobac or MB7 and run a good skimmer 24/7. You can turn the skimmer off for 30 minutes after dosing, just don't forget to turn it back on.

 

I do this twice a week for maintenance in my tank. The theory behind this is to out compete the (good) bacteria with the (bad) cyanobacteria. The coral snow gives the bacteria a surface in which to attach before it is dosed. The snow, when added to the tank, helps the (good) bacteria settle on surfaces/substrate in the tank. Over time this will out compete the cyano. It also helps to lower DOC in the tank which helps overall.

 

I have always thought problems with cyano were more of a imbalance of bacteria that lives in the tank. Once the balance is returned, cyano should not be a problem provided you keep good maintenance of the tank and run correct spectrums.

 

Again, Albert, I have not read that bible you pictured a few posts ago, nor am I a biologist, I just thought I would offer another possible remedy for cyanobacteria.

 

Very good points indeed and obviously it has worked for you so your theory definitely applies to your tank.

 

Now for those who are not using the Zeovit system carbon dosing may achieve the same result but based on a link to an article I posted on my main thread, what is recommended to prevent feeding the cyanos is to use Vinegar and not Vodka or sugar or glucose. Apparently the use of vinegar allows the bacteria that grow to out compete the Cyano ones.

 

Here is a link to that article ... (using Vinegar)

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...t&p=4034709

[albertthiel]

Albert I'm going to cut to the chase... Chemicure treatment... Short term: Absolute success. Long term: TBD

 

How is the tank doing now that some time has gone by ?

 

Thanks for an update

[Mstefa1]

How is the tank doing now that some time has gone by ?

 

Thanks for an update

 

My tank is beautiful again.

 

If I had rebloom, how soon could these buggers show up again theorerticaly? Remember my fuge was not medicated even though it never had visible cyano.

[albertthiel]

My tank is beautiful again.

 

If I had rebloom, how soon could these buggers show up again theorerticaly? Remember my fuge was not medicated even though it never had visible cyano.

 

They should not re-appear if you practice the maintenance that has been recommended and clean the rock and the sand every couple of days or at least once a week.

 

The manufacturer says repeat after 1 month but that may just be marketing.

 

Clean the rocks and the gravel / substrate and clean your mechanical filters regularly and in my opinion it should not come back ...

 

It is really all a matter of good and regular tank maintenance and keeping the nutrient levels as low as possible.

[albertthiel]

Blowing detritus off the LR and behind them and underneath them

 

Here is what my tank looks like after I dusted rocks listed above ...

 

All that will not be removed in one time by the filter and skimmer, but doing it a few times will definitely get a lot of it out.

 

An alternative is to blow it all in the water column and then siphon out water to do a large water change and a lot of the floating detritus and particulate will be removed that way as well

 

The more often you clean the tank the better off you will be IMHO

 

 

I started a water change and removed about 3 gallons from my 20 G and removed some of it that way and then let my HOB filter suck out some more and after about 30 minutes I cleaned the floss I have in the HOB, and it was full of particulate ... that is now gone ...

[albertthiel]

Here is how slime algae begin when on your substrate ....

 

 

 

When this happens you "know" that if you do not intervene the red slime will soon be in other spots as well and the problem will just get worse.

 

You can find many suggestions on what to do in previous messages that were posted

[Mstefa1]

Its funny because the cyano wasn't interested in my sand bed but it did take over my rock. I don't have a lot of critters stirring it up either.

[albertthiel]

Its funny because the cyano wasn't interested in my sand bed but it did take over my rock. I don't have a lot of critters stirring it up either.

 

It may just be that the parts of the rock it settled first was a low flow area as cyanos are oxygen phobic and will start up on those areas where oxygen is lower and then start to spread from there.

 

You may have had good flow over the substrate and so they did not start there but if you had let them run their course they would have been on it too.

 

Thanks for the input

[albertthiel]

So I blew off the dirt on the rocks 2 days ago and again today :

 

Here is what the tank looked like after blowing on the rocks, between and behind them ...

 

Just proves IMO that it has to be done every few days to avoid detritus build up that loads the water with nutrients and can then lead to cyano outbreaks

 

 

 

 

I let the HOB filter suck out a good deal, sucked some out to do a water change and let the skimmer pull out some as well ...then about an hour later I cleaned the mechanical filters

[Mstefa1]

Just an update: I'm still clean.