FIRE!!! Floatswitches.net

[mnjlp27]

pyrrhus

 

Well I have not taken apart an air pump lately but one way it could get a short is from corrosion, salt creep.... Any electric device has the potential to fail and short. Other reasons could be, Defect in the insulating wiring, Chafed wire, Defective seal around where the wires go into the pump and water could get in. Lots of ways for something to short. Chances are very low that this would happen, more likely on a submerged water pump though.

[mnjlp27]

John,

 

This is NOT the exact setup my brother used, but similar electrical specs for the switches. He wired his up like this becuase so many other people had done it so he figured it was safe. Wasn't till after it started the fire till we bothered to investigate this switch, and others like them. They are designed to be used in DC applications. If you look at the pictures in the link you will see how it is wired, basically wired inline with the power cable for the pump.

 

http://www.californiareefs.com/forsale.htm

[artooman]

A circuit using a relay is still 1000 better than using a $5 float switch connected to a wall outlet. I think that is point that mnjlp27 is trying to make. Why are people flaming him?

 

zzpw3x,

 

There you go with your stupidy, again. How are you qualified to talk intelligently about electrical circuits? I have an M.S in electrical engineering, so I think I know what I am talking about...

 

Powerheads, heaters, and other tank equipment are designed to be submersed in water. Repeat: DESIGNED FOR USE IN AN AQUARIUM WITH 110 VAC. They use thick wires that wont melt in the event of a short circuit. A GFCI and possibly a breaker will trip before the wire melts. Obviously, there is always a risk with electricty and water.

 

If the float switch wire is too thin to power the PH. I don't care what kind of current that the power head is rated at. If there is a short in the PH, the floatswtich wire will carry a lot more current than the floatswitch. mnjlp27 is also trying to get this point across. The website even says that the float switch is NOT APPROPRIATE FOR 110 AC APPLICATIONS. There is a reason that every single appliance in the world has much thicker gauge wire. ALL WIRES CARRYING 110 VAC ON A 15 AMP BREAKER MUST BE RATED AT 15 AMP VAC.

 

Given that the wire is so thin, it will heat up and act like a big old resistor. This resistance has a good chance of keeping both the GFCI and breaker from tripping because it will effectively limit the current going through the short circuit.

 

 

A GFCI is not a 100% guarantee. You can't trust that GFCI will always save you. mnjlp27 just told you a story of someone with a GFCI who had a fire. Hmmm... Others have cited experience with shock with a GFCI. Hmmm... A GFCI is an extremely good idea, but it is not perfect.

 

Tell you what, drop that toaster in the water, and let us know how that works out for you. Maybe you can help rid us of your ignorance and stupidity.

[john1945]

Hi

I did go to the Madison site and looked at their float switches. One of them, the 30VA version can carry about 7W of load. That is a Penguin 330 for instance. It can switch AC at 120V or 240V. But I would not connect it directly as is, without a relay which carries the load. All the load at the moment goes through the switch I saw, right through the switches wiring. A bit dicey for me. Yes, you can hook it up to 120V AC but only with a smallish load.

I personally would only use this particilar levelswitch with a relay only. Then any load, would only effect the relays "ratings". Which in turm can carry AC, DC, single phase or 3 phase or whatever. Then, and only then is the switch 100% safe and load independent.

John

[Physh1]

Wow...this turned into quite a little war didn't it.

 

The few setup I've tested with relays have not always triggered properly....sometimes they trip on fine and trip off fine....sometimes they don't shut off and sometimes they don't trip on.

 

One reason why I don't have one out now is that I haven't found a relay that will work correctly more often. I've just been so busy I haven't been able to test a variety of relays to find one that works the way I want it to.

 

Secondly, this little flame war about how unsafe my switch it I'd like to remind some of you guys about other electrical devices are in aquariums without fuses as well! Powerheads! Heater! Pumps! For those of you who've ever seen a powerhead fire and the oil slick they expell which can catch fire you know what I'm talking about!

 

Don't point at my switches and call me out when there are other products that are void of the same precautions. I'm not saying that I would never do anything to upgrade my design but like I've stated, currently every "upgrade" I've attempted has increased the less than 1% failure rate.

 

One other thing I'd like to point out that hasn't been addressed yet! In many of the DIY pictures I've seen one here and a variety of other sites people use the switch raw as is and clip it to the tank with the wires hanging free. While these wires have an epoxy in the case this is FAR FROM WATER TIGHT!!!!!!! I've checked and ~1 of every 3 will absord water through some imperfections in the epoxy fill! Secondly, after seeing some of the floatswitch.net popular ones I can say the same case for theirs. Every single switch unit I sell is encased in a tube and FULLY SEALED from any water....that is sealing it from water and moisture that can cause some serious issues on any unprotected switch unit!

 

With the way I encase mine and seal them the only way to get water into it if it beomes completely mangled which won't happen hanging onto a tank. I would never sell anything to anyone if I wasn't running them myself and wasn't comfortable with them being safe!

 

While this is turning out to be quite a conversation, keep it a conversation....seems to be getting a bit nasty and I see no reason for that to occur....for one not as much will be learned and secondly, I've never hesitated to help and answer questions regarding any top off system....whether it's mine or any of the other dozens out there.

 

Nothing can be made 100% safe....there is failure with anything. From what I've seen and heard, the floatswitch.net units are being used beyone their capabilities. This is the very first large problem with them I've heard. But that is one out of how many thousands of units they've sold?!?! Nothing is perfect and nothing can be expected to be. I think a less than 1% failure rate is excellent in any product.....can't ask for much better than that.

 

To emphasize the owners of my units....I use them well within Madison specs and they are well tested and proven reliable. I won't shy from answering questions (as always), will always entertain ideas (as always), and help anyway I can.

 

Just keep those things in mind.....

 

Cameron

[Sly]

Hi,

 

I'm a newbie here but i'm a looong time reader.

 

I'm also an active "Nano Reefer". Just like you i'm constantly battling evaporation. I've been running my tank with a relay box that i built and is similar to what sandsrfr showed in his last post. I added a 1 amp fuse on the 125v and one on the 12v circuit (the madison floatswitch). I'm presently using this relay box to shutoff the main pump if something goes wrong with the tank overflow (makes my wife happy). Since that this seems to work ok, i was planning to build another one similar for a topoff system.

 

At the same time and since that i will be using this topoff system only when i'm away for a few days, i was wondering if a system like Physh1 sells wouldn't be enough. I'm not an electricity expert and i'm not pretending to have a solution for everything. But since that there's experimented people reading this thread i thought i might ask.

 

If i understand correctly, the risk of fire resides in the fact that the floatswitch and the wire that it's using is simply too small to handle 15amps. I don't know if this has been said or if i'm going to say something completely stupid but if you forget the relay for a second and just add a 1amp fuse inline with the switch? I mean, a small powerhead draws .25amp - no? A 22gauge wire can handle 1amp as well?

 

Finding a fix for all those who are already using the system would be nice...

 

Please comment. Thanks.

 

 

/Sly

[matt the fiddler]

"Yes, you can hook it up to 120V AC but only with a smallish load."

 

 

btw. for what it is worth- i talked to a certified electritian and electrial engineering graduate.. he siad i did not have to worry as long as i properly sealed it, connections, etc. kept the load small , etc. he said the switch looked exactly built for safe operation under water for low load operations and the possibility os 120 V ac.

[mnjlp27]

Well this has been a GREAT thread... Alot of information has come out here from alot of views. LETS BE CLEAR, I NEVER SAID ANY OF THESE SWITCHES WERE THE PROBLEM. It is the manner in which they are beeing connected in circuits that is the problem. I did however state that there are safer circuit designs to protect your property from fire hazards. So far I haven't seen anyone on this post say, "This is 100% safe and this is exactly what this switch is designed for". But I have seen a lot of posts with ideas how to make a safer circuit. The fact that there is even a debate about this issue should be enough for people either thinking about hooking one up along with the people that allready have one hooked up like this with no isolation to really think about what they are doing. I understand that people want to save some money. I am sorry if I upset anyone with this post. I did not intend for anyone to get called stupid. Someone had a good point too, about the fuse. One could just wire up a 1 amp fuse inline with the switch. This could be a pain because it would blow while your away but and then the system wouldn't work anyway. Hope this post may have opened some eyes to fire safety.

 

Physh1,

You keep responding to how you have had low failure rate and so you don't want to fix anything cause it isn't broken kind of answer. I am not talking about functionality. I am talking about safety. Bottom line Physh1, this device you sell would not be allowed to sell if you were a real company and had to go through real testing. Any electronics engineer would point out the saftey flaws in your design before even plugging it in.

 

PS> Love the snaill gaurd though....

 

 

Also alot of mention of GFI's here too. These are good ideas, I can't tell you how many times I go to someones house to look at thier setup and see the wire mess, without GFI power outlets and no drip loops. So just please be careful is all I am saying.

 

Sorry to ruffel any feathers, was just wanting so share my brothers experience and maybe get people to think a little bit about the issue. I know personally before this fire happened to my brother my wiring on all my tanks was a nightmare. As soon as that happend to him I went out and bought GFI power strips as well as changed two wall outlets with GFI outlets.

[zzpw3x]

MSEE means nothing. They don't teach residential wiring. I am well educated also artonman, but I am not going to sit here and list my degrees to prove how smart I am.

 

IMO, if you don't have a good understanding of wiring / electronics, a relay will make a bigger mess, not a smaller one. I respectfully disagree w/ John regarding a GFI not protecting you in newer homes. GFI's work on the idea that any current leaving must return (KCL for you artonman). If there is any imbalance they trip.

 

I am done beating this horse.

[john1945]

Hi zz......

Too long a name to remember. You say:

I respectfully disagree w/ John regarding a GFI not protecting you in newer homes. GFI's work on the idea that any current leaving must return (KCL for you artonman). If there is any imbalance they trip.

Maybe I expressed myself badly.

Not every GFI is 100% foolfroof (safe) in 100% of condidtions.

Take a powerpont and hook up globes, resistors etc. It will not trip. Stamd on a rubber mat and use 2 fingers (resistor), put it to active and neutral. Don't forget you are standing on a totally non-earthed rubbermat. Touch it and see if it trips.

Love you all .

 

John

[zzpw3x]

ok, your right.

[HobokenAddict]

After reading this thread and commenting, i emailed David at Floatswitches.net for a response about the AC /DC issue. This is what I got back from him. Vague eh? Can someone with electronic talents post a simple design for a relay for us DIY'ers?

 

Thanks

 

Flananuts the HobokenAddict

 

 

 

a/c or d/c.

 

Thanks......David

www.floatswitches.net

 

Is your website #1 on the search results

www.floatswitches.net/number1.html

[john1945]

Hi David

Tell me in an email and I'll design someting 100% safe. Provided you do exactly as I tell you without cutting corners. That is, I need the ratings of the switch, relay and if possible the maximum load. Then the whole lot goes into a good box. Preferably a waterproof one.

 

John

[sandsrfr]

Hoboken,

 

The relay design I posted is safe, well from what I gather, in John1945's mind assuming you have quality DIY skills, waterproof box, Isolate 110 so it absolutely cannot come loose and touch anything, etc... etc... etc...

 

The design is simple and is the basic componentry of the mass produced solid-state relay (better than any mechanical relay, imo, that CAN and DO stick).

 

Albeit, i'm not expert, but do some research, google a bit, and see what you see..... Bottom line is safe is a subjective term when it comes to anything DIY...

 

Good luck,

Sands