FIRE!!! Floatswitches.net

[john1945]

Hi

I am a total newby here. But I would like to make a few useful points regarding electricity. I live in Victoria, Australia, which has one of the strictest rules regarding power/wiring (240V). The circuit of Sand does look good, but would never be approved by any authority. Yes, it is a solid state relay, sort of at least. Most likely a triac controlled my an optocoupler, which is the correct way to go. But, a wire from the 110V socket(s) could come loose and touch the low voltage supply. The whole idea of safety has been negated. 110V into a LV (12v?) does not mix well. Next, nobody should mix 110v home-made (DIY) stuff and water. A deadly combination. Only if it is UL approved. Anything else should be 12V only. Totally safe. And yes, the first mentioned float-switch is rated in DC and not AC.

 

John

[Physh1]

I know what your pointing out and I've read the specs and spoken to madison regarding it. I am using the M8000.....not the S model by the way. The pumps I sell and recommend draw less than .28 amps....I've tested this thoroughly and Rio 800's and MJ1200's pull less that this.

 

I see your point but I've stated my cases regarding my design, and my future mods if people want to pay more. I include a "waiver" of sorts that everyone reads as it's the largest thing in the box....lol

 

I can make different models, I have, and if enough people want it I'll design it. Simple as that....I will continue to say that I use madison switches well within their specs!!!!!

 

Cameron

[john1945]

Hi Cameron

I was not criticizing you. I was only pointing out the dangers to "nilly willy butchers". You might do as I do and go by specs etc.

Nothing wrong with that. How many small businesses or even handymen could afford an UL approval? Far too expensive. If you do have a safe and watertight "gizmo", whatever it is, you might as well connect it to 110V. Provided, whatever you insert into the water is watertight to begin with. My warning went straight to the run of the mill hobbyist. I do not know you, but by the way you talk, you seem to be a responsible person.

 

John

[Physh1]

Originally posted by john1945

Hi Cameron

I was not criticizing you. I was only pointing out the dangers to "nilly willy butchers". You might do as I do and go by specs etc.  

Nothing wrong with that. How many small businesses or even handymen could afford an UL approval? Far too expensive. If you do have a safe and watertight "gizmo", whatever it is, you might as well connect it to 110V. Provided, whatever you insert into the water is watertight to begin with. My warning went straight to the run of the mill hobbyist. I do not know you, but by the way you talk, you seem to be a responsible person.

 

John

My post was more regarding mnjlp27's post not yours. Your post was clear and makes complete sense.....sorry for the confusion....

 

Cameron

[mnjlp27]

Well the bottom line is that your switch is just as big of a fire hazard as te other one. Do you know what a fuse is? A fuse is used to break a circuit in case of a short. Thing about a fuse is that it is designed to burn up and break the connections. (Controlled Fire) You can say whatever you want. But here is the fact, If ANY powerhead, air pump that is connected to one of your switches shorts, your whole switch mechinism would indeed turn into a fuse and burn up, might just be a little burn to break the connection, might be a big fire. The fact that you do not understand how electricity works is a SCARY one considering you have sold 1000+ units that could kill people. PRETTY SCARY. Rest assured Physh1, This is not a personel thing, but I think it is absolutly insane that you tell people that they should feel safe with you setup. I ENCOURAGE ANYONE THAT BOUGHT THIS TO ASK THIER LOCAL ELECTRICIAN FOR THEIR $0.02......

 

As far as Madison telling you this I don't beleive you. I will be posting the response that our company gets from Madison after pointing out WHY this switch of theres cannot make contact with the 110VAC. I will have our engineer draw your way in a schematic pointing out the fire hazards and I assure you that they will say NO WAY!!! That is why they have Relays in their examples. You MUST isolate that switch so that it does not act as a FUSE in a short condition. You may have sold 1000+ of these, Makes me real sick that you don't even take the time to stop and THINK about the danger you are putting yourself into.

 

I think that ethecally I have a responsibility to see this through. I feel that anyone else that has any electrical knowledge speak up as well. After all if you Noticed a building was on fire would you tell someone? If you know a product has the potential to kill and did nothing that would be the equivelent of watching the fire burn and tell knowone.....

[trmiv]

Well there is some serious allegations being thrown around here. Someone needs to figure something out for the people that are using this system.

[TiGs]

Hmmm kind of scary. What kind of relay should we buy from the store?

[onthefly]

Ok, I'm going way back to 3rd quarter Physics here, but isn't Amperage the "flow rating" of electricity? Therefore, you could think of it as water flowing through a tube (and that's how my electrical engineer friend descibes it)......The amount of amperage that is capable of coming out of the 120V wall socket could be huge.....if you had a big enough source to pull it out. In this case, we're using low amperage pumps (Cameron CLEARLY states on all his switches the Amp limits and I cross referenced this with my air pump, which isn't even in water...and it's well within limits!)

 

So my example, If I have a 4" pipe coming out of a wall, and it is capable of delivering a "full stream" of water that a 4" pipe can deliver.......but then put a reducer on the end of said pipe such that a 1/2 tubing is connected......The amount of flow (or with electricity...amperage) is limited by the size of the tubing and device pulling the water through it......regardless of the source!

 

The floatswitch.com switches and Camerons are not the same devices at all......I've heard repeated complaints about their (FS.com) switches sticking (causing floods or no top off) and now fire. I have only nothing but PRAISE for Camerons product, workmanship, and customer service.

 

Just because the tires on some Ford Explorers blew out, doesn't mean all SUV's are unsafe.........

[irabren]

Cameron - you mention that your set-up with a relay is less reliable. Could you explain?

I am interested in 2 of your units but would want them with relays.

Could this be done and still be reliable ??

[MakoMan36]

if your outlet is connected to a GFI then you're safe. Dont know how your friend got a fire in the basement but im pretty sure the outlet his using dont have a GFI or a circuit breaker. you said something about GFI protect you from shock ,i got shock couple time and what the GFI did? NOTHING . Well dont know what electronic company you work for but you sounds funny.

[mnjlp27]

onthefly

 

Well you theory's are half correct. Indeed the power that pumps are "drawing" is within the stated specs. But If after the switch, the circuit shorts, (powerhead or airpump shorts) that switch would be required to carry the FULL load of the circuit (usually 15 amps in a house) I totally understand that this will work, but it has 0 fault tollerence. Any electrical switch that is not isolated from the main house circuit must be able to withstand the full load of that circuit it is connected to. If everything is perfect you it will work as stated, I am not debating that. I am pointing out the fact that this is NOT CODE IN ANY STATE and IS fire hazard. If anyone has ANY doubt about what I am saying please feel free to test my theory. This is a fact, not my opinion: If you are plugged into a socked that has the potential to unleash 15 amps and you short that circuit it WILL unleash 15 amps. This is exactly what makes the breaker pop. If you have a little switch that is rated for a max of .28 amps and 22 gauge leads on that switch it now becomes the fuse/breaker because it is the weakest chain in the link. I have explained this a few times now and I guess if you guys want to trust that your power head or air pump could NEVER posssibley short out, sitting in a tank of water, hmmm. Go ahead..... This is fact, not my opinion. I will post the reply I get from Madison on monday, but anyone that knows about electricity knows that if a circuit is shorted it will carry the full load of the potential untill something gives, fuse, breaker or a fire. If we don't need to isolate this switch, then ####, we don't even need breakers on our home wiring. I mean, #### my stereo only "draws" 400 watts, that's not 15 amps, what the hell do I need a breaker for? All I am saying is if you don't beleive either ask the manufactuer, or an electrician. Or you can trust your families and/or neighbors lifes to someone you met on the internet. All I am saying is check it out for yourself, don't ask me, ask an electrician or madison....

[mnjlp27]

Got Reef AI

 

 

GFI will is Ground Fault Interupt, not a breaker, which means that yes it will protect YOU if you ground the circuit, instead of shocking you it will pop the GFI..... PS I never said I worked for an electric company READ THE WHOLE THREAD.......

 

 

I am done argueing this point, WHAT I AM STATING IS A FACT, THIS IS A FIRE HAZARD..I NEVER SAID THAT IT DOESN'T WORK, I AM JUST POINTING OUT THAT THIS IS NOT CODE IN ANY STATE AND THAT THIS IS A FIRE HAZARD PLANE AND SIMPLE....

 

THIS IS HOW TO CONNECT IT SAFELY AND TO CODE

its their switch, I hope they know what they are talking about.. Both illustrations of how to connect to circuit cleary show relays to isolate from 15 amp circuit.

 

http://madisonco.com/reference/electrical.htm

[mnjlp27]

onthefly

 

"Just because the tires on some Ford Explorers blew out, doesn't mean all SUV's are unsafe........."

 

No but this is a perfect example.... Wasn't the ford that was the problem IT WAS THE FIRESTONE TIRES!!!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/20/...ain519201.shtml

And if everyone listened to firestone about how there tires were SAFE, think of how many other people could have died. I have nothing against anyone here but think about it, by not investigating this information with someone other then the manufactuer (Physh1) then you are getting a one sided opinion from someone that has an agenda. That agenda is to sell kits, and even more important not to have to refund money or send out "fixes".

[sandsrfr]

Originally posted by john1945

......But, a wire from the 110V socket(s) could come loose and touch the low voltage supply. The whole idea of safety has been negated.....

 

LOL, yup, the same could be said about the drywall falling off the wall, the staples coming out of the studs, and the slack in the 110 wire falling into the tank, and the insulation dissolving in the salt water...... If we are going to start contemplating 'What-Ifs' that is.....

 

The 'Solid-State Relay' you are talking about is just that, a DIY, not UL approved. It is however 1000 times safer than running 110volt thru your tank and a little float switch. Tho, precautions need be made WHENEVER working with 110, so do indeed make sure nothing can come loose and short out.

 

I offered up the idea as a solution what mnjlp27 was trying to diagram.

 

I'm not taking sides or anything, I just get freaked out about the idea of some little plastic float switch shorting out and either floading my home or setting it on fire. After all, most of us can't keep a watch on the sytem 24/7.

 

mnjlp27,

I can't be positive on how much I have into the box, but I did buy all the items from a late night trip to a 'fry's electronics' store. I suspect the project box ran $10, the DC transformer prolly $15, triac/opto/resistors maybe $20?. The other misc stuff like the jacks/electrical connectors/bread board I had laying around.

 

You can buy a 'Solid-State Relay' prebuilt, but it was much cheaper to build it DIY, as the only ones that Fry's had were like $50 and really made for larger items.

[john1945]

Hi Sand

You may laugh as much as you like. No authority in the world approve it. I mikght look 100% safe to you, but "they" think of every possible eventuality. A GFI will not stop a fire. But it will stop from you getting a shock. Ptovided it has been correctly installed. Here is an excerpt FQA:

 

Q4 - What is the difference between a safety switch and a circuit breaker?

 

A safety switch is for protection of life and a circuit breaker is for protection of property.

I have nothing againt you sir, but it could easily be like a case here in Australia. A woman lobbied to have milbottles banned, because her brother-in law fell down, broke bottle and nearly died from the wounds. Just because a fire broke out in "your brothers? " house, does not mean all items are bad. One has to look at the whole situation. Were there other items plugged in? Were there too many items plugged in? Could there be another reason for the fire? One should not condemn one person because of a "vaguely explained incident, however tragic". BTW, one of our most beloved Petshop burned down. The finest fish, tame birds, reptiles....all perished. The cause, an overloaded power-board (extension-cable-type). No shoddy workmanship, no suspicious "float-switch". Just sheer thoughlesness on the owner. Pluggin too many electrical items into one powerboard. And there could be a chance the same happened to your brother.

Sorry if I called the person the wrong relation.

Think about it before you make accusations too quickly.

 

John

[zzpw3x]

Lets make this clear for al of you calling me stupid:

 

You act liek putting AC around water is a big no no, but all of us do it everyday. The powerheads, heaters, lights (some cases) are all 120VAC devices. Why do I see no panic about those?

 

Artoonman-

 

I don't care what the wire guage is. make it as thick as your arm or as thin as your hair, if it comes in contact with water your breaker is not going to pop fast enough - they are slow devices in terms of electronics. That is why we all should have GFI's. If you don't have one and your house burns down, you are the stupid one, not the float switch designer.

 

And by the way, if someone throws a radio in my bath-tub I will not die. I have GFI's. They protect me.

 

The float switch is perfectly capable of handling the PH current. Just don't be stupid about it. Everything is going to fail at some point, and you have to make allowances for the cases when it fails to a short circuit or resistive short circuit.

 

Dale

[TroyT]

Ok, I can't take it anymore.

 

mnjlp27,

 

I can understand that your brother is going through a difficult time after burning down his basement. You said you had been researching this site for some time as well. I remember seeing a post about floatswitches.com months ago saying they were for only DC applications.

 

You have also asked for people with electrical experience to speak up so I will.

 

First - I would like to point out that the diagrams you keep pointing to only shows how a relay is wired to the switch. What you fail to state is that this relay provides protection to the switch and only the switch. In my 20 years of working with electricity I have seen relays burn open and closed. If they remain open they are acting as a fuse and the current path is broken, but if they relay is in operation and burns closed, you have many problems if this "short" you keep mentioning does happen you have the same problem as not having a relay. A relay has moving parts and can malfunction. Last I checked relays are used to open or close an electrical circuit and can be used to protect those circuits but breakers and fuses are used to protect complete electrical systems and property. I am willing to bet that the relay you are throwing around is used to protect the float switch and only the float switch since they have reeds which will fail if exposed to overvoltage or spikes.

 

Here is the relay from the same source you keep posting. http://madisonco.com/accessories/R1-relays.htm

Please note the rated load value of 10A. This is still enough to cause major damage before it will protect anything.

 

My solution would be to take the top off system you are using and measure the current under normal load conditions. Once I have my reading I would install a fuse rated at 50% to 100% over my current draw. For example, if the current draw is .5 amps I would install a fuse rated at 1 amp to protect my equipment and house from any damage. So, when this "short" happens and the source is greater than 1 amp it blows the fuse and the electrical path is broken resulting in saving my tank, fish, corals, and house. Electricity needs a path to travel and if a portion of that path does not exsist it wont flow.

 

By the way the best top off system I have found so far is the water bottle method. It works like this, when my tank is needing water, I walk over to the water bottle and pour some in the tank. Never fails or over flows.

 

I can understand your desire to be ethical and follow something through to the end but be careful as well. Slander and ethics can be a blurry line sometimes.

 

Too lazy to spell check tonight, sorry. EDIT Had to change some obvious typos.

[john1945]

Hi

You say:

 

Lets make this clear for al of you calling me stupid:  

 

You act liek putting AC around water is a big no no, but all of us do it everyday. The powerheads, heaters, lights (some cases) are all 120VAC devices. Why do I see no panic about those?  

 

Artoonman-

I for one don't call you stupid. You do misunderstand. Manufacturers have to go through a rigorous testing procedure and pay a lot of money to obtain the UL certification. Yes, all their equipment runs in 110V/240V environments under water. Yes, they made it doubleinsulated, subsequently inherently safe. But not any run of the mill socalled "handyman" who dabbled on his 12V car stereo and calls himself a qualified electrician. Btw, one should always turn off the power if you put your hand in the tank. However many UL certificates are on it. One never knows. A safety switch GFI, called differently here in Australia, but have the same effect, are safe because if there is a broken or exposed wire inside the tank, the fish would not know about it because they are not grounded like you. How many turn the power off when the put their hand inside the tank? Very few, me included. But, it is wrong unless you have a safetyswitch. (here it is called something like residual earth leakage dedector). You are the earth which is dedected and subsequently switches the power off.

I think this subject should be covered enough by now.

 

John

[zzpw3x]

I did not mean to imply that everyone thought I was being stupid. Sorry.

 

I do think that many people are going off the deep end with this issue. Troy T is right, if you don't know what you are doing, don't mess with it, because it will burn down your house. But to imply and flat out campaign against a device that is safe when used appropriately is wrong. I guess that's all I am really getting at here.

 

We are beating a dead horse. (I take the blame for that too!)

 

Dale

[john1945]

Hi

Me again. I could not resist.

 

Troy

By the way the best top off system I have found so far is the water bottle method. It works like this, when my tank is needing water, I walk over to the water bottle and pour some in the tank. Never fails or over flows.

 

I just love it.

 

Dale

We are beating a dead horse

Nicely put.

 

John

[mnjlp27]

I never called anyone stupid and never said any of these switches suck. All I have stated is that wiring a switch like that without some protection is a fire hazard plain and simple. Untill someone gives me the name of a licensed electrical contractor that will sign off on installing this device I stand by the fact that they are not safe to use in THIS APPLICATION. I would agree your chances of a fire are less then 1 in a 1000, but still, I guess my family is worth more than that. So if you guys want to ignore safety in the name of a few dollars go ahead, I just pray to GOD that you do not live next to me where the flames could spread. If anyone can give me the name and telephone number of a licensed electrical contractor that will sign off on this I will be next in line to order 2 of them. It is really scary that so many people would buy something like this, the fact that there is even a debate about it's safety is enough not to use it. If I was incorrect about this issue, I would have been corrected with some hard cold fact. Instead all I have seen is the, well mine works fine, response. I will be posting the Name and Telephone number of the person I speak with at madison controlls regarding the safe use of this switch. (Physh1, do you have the name and number of your madison contact? You have stated that you have spoken with them several times, If so I would like to talk to the same person.) Sorry if I seem like a big a**hole but I think it is very serious issue that should get a definate answer. (And the question is not if this will work, we have allready established that it will. The question is how safe is it in the event of failure.)

[john1945]

Hi

Before, I only glanced over some posts and gave general answers. This time I looke at the link from Troy, regardig the Madison stuff. There is nothing wrong with the floatswitch. Safe because it is most likely approved. Then there is the relay. If you connect the floatswitch to the relay and it does activate thousand of times per minute, would not last long but cannot do much harm. If it is fused open or closed. But now comes the important part. What are you connecting to the realy? A small torchglobe? The relay would probably last a lifetime. or are you connecting a 1000W load? Then it will not last forever. But whatever happens, there will not be any fire risk whatever happens to the relay. It is the load you have to watch out for. If it were 10A I would not put 10A on it. I would put less on it for safety. Nothing wrong with that. I don't exactly know how your brother wired his unit up. The relay has exposed connections. maby a wire was not insulated enough and made a short. Who knows. I don't know about America, but here in Australia, any item causing concern will be recalled by the manufacturer. But not if an amateur made a mess of it.

 

John

[mnjlp27]

John,

 

My brother did NOT use a relay, he hooked it up in the same manner as Physh1 does. Just wire this switch directly inline with the powerhead or airpump. That is the point I have been trying to make. This switch is NOT designed to do this. It may work but that doesn't mean that is what it's intention was. Question: when is it ever SAFE to wire 22 gauge wire leads to a 110VAC outlet. Answer: NEVER

 

I also understand the these pumps do not draw much power, but what if one shorts out. If the circuit shorts, then that switch should have some sort of isolation so that it is not the WEAK link in the chain.

 

You seem like a pretty intelligent person John. Would you wire this switch up without any kind of motor control circuit, relay or isolation from the main house circuit?

[pyrrhus]

just have to put in my .02 here GFI WILL NOT i repeat WILL NOT protect you from a shock. i have been shocked many a time by a properly installed and grounded device connected to a GFI. and zzpw3x you would die if someone threw a toaster in your bathtub the GFI would not save you. mnjlp, could you explain to me how an air pump used on one of these switches could short? i havent taken an electronics class since the third grade so i am a bit rusty on the subject but i just dont see how it could happen.

[john1945]

Hi mnjlp27

Sorry, I don"t know you by name, but is there any chance that you email me the complete setup? All the parts used in a diagram format if possible. Then I can give an unbiased view. I will not hold any punches back. As soon as I have more definite information, I will be able to judge it better. At the moment I do hear conflicting stories.

BTW, a GFI in an modern house with all plastic (PVC) piping system will not safe you from a shock in a "bath-tub-situation". Only if you either physically stand on a good ground (earth) or if the bathtub is earthed. Otherwise the current cannot go from the power to ground if there is no ground!!. But a normal GFI senses "earth", your body and the ground, subsequently trips a safety device. In approx 0.03 of a second. Save to you or anybody who touches a live wire.

But only in these circumstances. Earth must be there to make it work.

 

John