The Lightning Clown is Spawning!

[supernip]

LOL! Eligible breeder. I remember when he couldn't breed Victorian Haps. He would bring them to the LFS to breed.

 

surely you understand the dynamics of american politics by now old guy. the loudest mouth wins. and history is rewritten in the image of winners

[awpong]

LOL! Eligible breeder. I remember when he couldn't breed Victorian Haps. He would bring them to the LFS to breed.

 

Lol, well he was on BZA's "short list of possible independent breeders." And he was a good customer, so he got priority over other breeders.

[wombat]

how could it not be genetic?

 

External factors during pigment development. Viral infection, for instance.

 

There are a whole host of fish species that show aberrant color/pattern forms in the wild that revert to "normal" coloration in captivity. So there are clearly external factors that can influence the appearance. It could just be that the change is permanent in this example.

 

For what it's worth the patterning really reminds me of an abberant Acanthurus lineatus that Luiz Rocha has posted about:

 

He suspected this was from a disease of some sort:

 

I collected all with hand nets, took tissue samples and released them. One thing that made me suspect it was some kind of disease was that the scales on the aberrant ones were falling off very easily compared to the normal ones. After handling them for a few seconds just to clip a piece of fin, my hands were covered with scales.

 

LOL! Eligible breeder. I remember when he couldn't breed Victorian Haps. He would bring them to the LFS to breed.

 

The elephant in the room is that Matt is not all that great at keeping fish. The track record of preventable diseases, water quality issues, and failed treatments is out there for all to see.

[RayWhisperer]

surely you understand the dynamics of american politics by now old guy. the loudest mouth wins. and history is rewritten in the image of winners

 

 

Lol, well he was on BZA's "short list of possible independent breeders." And he was a good customer, so he got priority over other breeders.

 

 

The elephant in the room is that Matt is not all that great at keeping fish. The track record of preventable diseases, water quality issues, and failed treatments is out there for all to see.

Wow. And here I thought everyone had bought into the MWP is fish breeding god, shtick.

[supernip]

naw being a reefbuilder's contributor....association with that jake adams guy anyways, automatically discredits him.

 

I read his little spew on the hawaiian fish ban thing and was like

[iprayforwaves]

^ This

 

Although the chances of the lightning pattern being genetic are fairly good. The patterning is most likely the result of a mutation in the HOX genes and neural crest cells, resulting in the unique expression of it's bar. It also helps that the lightning maroon is wild, essentially ruling out poor nutrition and water quality. This is also, to my knowledge, the second lightning maroon that has been found/entered the hobby.

 

Yeah, there was another clown found with the same pattern. Chances are it is genetic.

[wombat]

Wow. And here I thought everyone had bought into the MWP is fish breeding god, shtick.

 

Nah. Matt is a genuinely nice guy but human like the rest of us.

[mwp]

LOL! Eligible breeder. I remember when he couldn't breed Victorian Haps. He would bring them to the LFS to breed.

 

I have a GUESS what this ^ BS is all about, because last time I checked, way way back in the day, we had 45 species/variants of Vics on the wholesale list. Some we purchased from other breeders, but others we did in house. Maybe "RayWhisperer" is familiar with the good old days of Strandells?? We sold out the newly released juveniles for GROW OUT in their foot-level retail space (worthless for retail, so we gave them a way to generate income from it). We did this program because we didn't have enough capacity to raise everything we spawned. At least, that's where I assume you're basing this nonsense off of - classic case of a complete misunderstanding. But I will say, we never could get Haplochromis sp. "Mbita Gold Chest" to spawn, but from my deeper understanding now they were probably just senescent by the time we got them.

 

Maybe, *MAYBE*, this comment stems from a colony of Haplochromis sp. "Flameback" I brought to a store I worked at and sold when I was 16 or 17??? I DO remember deciding to give up on that group, but man...you gotta dig back 19 years to pull up that kind of basis for smack talk. I'm impressed that you'd have that kind of memory, given I have no clue who you even are

 

The elephant in the room is that Matt is not all that great at keeping fish. The track record of preventable diseases, water quality issues, and failed treatments is out there for all to see.

 

Hmm...unlike most I'm actually more than happy to openly talk about my failures becaues we ALL have them. That, and no doubt some folks here remember that I LIKE to push the boundaries. Heck, I even wrote an article about nothing but failures:

 

 

Of course, for all the baseless shots above, I suggest you keep the snarky envious commentary to yourselves until you do something like, oh, push the boundaries and wind up being the first to breed and rear Oyxmonacanthus longirostris... - http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/ne...lequin-filefish.

 

Or for that matter, anyone else here working with Parrotfish eggs right now?

 

Sparisoma automarium,0 hph

 

Didn't think so.

 

And to everyone else - thanks! This is definitely only the beginning. A lot of genetic information bantied about in this thread but I must stress that it is ALL speculation. I too share the opinion that this could be genetic because not one, but two wild fish were found so far, and in the same location (think about it this way..if you're going to find albino fish in the wild, most likely they're going to come from the same parents, and thus probably be in the same general geographic vicinity should they grow up).

 

This trait, if it is genetic, could be recessive, partially dominant, dominant, co-dominant, or who knows what else. If we're lucky it's partially or fully dominant and otherwise straightforward. Wouldn't that be nice?

 

Of course, the news tonight that I haven't even posted yet - they ate the nest. I guess Ray and Wom will blame me for that too

 

Nah. Matt is a genuinely nice guy but human like the rest of us.

 

Feel free to retract the "genuinely nice guy" part if you like after reading the above ^

[wombat]

No retraction necessary. Your reaction is understandable. I'm not trying to be mean, just honest. Your accomplishments with O. longirostris are a huge deal, of course.

 

But the track record that you've posted on your blog shows to me a lot of very preventable and very simple to fix problems with many of your fish, some causing deaths.

[BustytheSnowMaam]

All the education I'm getting here is fascinating, and I can see both sides.

[RayWhisperer]

I have a GUESS what this ^ BS is all about, because last time I checked, way way back in the day, we had 45 species/variants of Vics on the wholesale list. Some we purchased from other breeders, but others we did in house. Maybe "RayWhisperer" is familiar with the good old days of Strandells?? We sold out the newly released juveniles for GROW OUT in their foot-level retail space (worthless for retail, so we gave them a way to generate income from it). We did this program because we didn't have enough capacity to raise everything we spawned. At least, that's where I assume you're basing this nonsense off of - classic case of a complete misunderstanding. But I will say, we never could get Haplochromis sp. "Mbita Gold Chest" to spawn, but from my deeper understanding now they were probably just senescent by the time we got them.

 

Maybe, *MAYBE*, this comment stems from a colony of Haplochromis sp. "Flameback" I brought to a store I worked at and sold when I was 16 or 17??? I DO remember deciding to give up on that group, but man...you gotta dig back 19 years to pull up that kind of basis for smack talk. I'm impressed that you'd have that kind of memory, given I have no clue who you even are

 

 

 

Hmm...unlike most I'm actually more than happy to openly talk about my failures becaues we ALL have them. That, and no doubt some folks here remember that I LIKE to push the boundaries. Heck, I even wrote an article about nothing but failures:

 

 

Of course, for all the baseless shots above, I suggest you keep the snarky envious commentary to yourselves until you do something like, oh, push the boundaries and wind up being the first to breed and rear Oyxmonacanthus longirostris... - http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/ne...lequin-filefish.

 

Or for that matter, anyone else here working with Parrotfish eggs right now?

 

Sparisoma automarium,0 hph

 

Didn't think so.

 

And to everyone else - thanks! This is definitely only the beginning. A lot of genetic information bantied about in this thread but I must stress that it is ALL speculation. I too share the opinion that this could be genetic because not one, but two wild fish were found so far, and in the same location (think about it this way..if you're going to find albino fish in the wild, most likely they're going to come from the same parents, and thus probably be in the same general geographic vicinity should they grow up).

 

This trait, if it is genetic, could be recessive, partially dominant, dominant, co-dominant, or who knows what else. If we're lucky it's partially or fully dominant and otherwise straightforward. Wouldn't that be nice?

 

Of course, the news tonight that I haven't even posted yet - they ate the nest. I guess Ray and Wom will blame me for that too

 

 

 

Feel free to retract the "genuinely nice guy" part if you like after reading the above ^

Yes, I'll blame you for the clowns eating their first clutch. That's how I roll. Just like I'll blame you for ALL your failures...

 

Actually, I wouldn't blame you for failures, because everyone has them. Hell, I've failed at so many things in my life, I could never count them all.

 

What I would bring issue with would be the many possibly preventable fish loss. Due in large part to what myself, and many others would describe as poor husbandry, or flat out neglect. I'll stick with poor husbandry, since I don't really see you as the type of person who would neglect fish.

 

I don't know how you do things now, however, I would hardly call that old Nano Cube of yours a boundary pusher.

 

As far as what you called BS... Well, you'll remember it how you will, I guess. I do know who you are from Strandells. You wouldn't know who I am, though. At least I rather doubt it. I was, quite frankly, always astounded by the colonies of rare fish you managed to get ahold of. However, I tended to stick with breeding Tanganyikans. I don't remember the hap types, however, I do remember you bringing them to Dan, saying you couldn't get them to breed. Only to have them breed in Strandells tanks. I found it quite amusing, TBH.

 

I wouldn't call my statements nonsense. I was there. What I would call nonsense would be what happened to your old breeding operation. Not to mention what, allegedly happened to your partner. I heard rumors, but I took them as just that, rumors. Had I brought that up, that would have been fair to call nonsense.

[Acielot]

Genetically, the best chance for offspring to express the lightning phenotype will be in the F2 generation. In other words, once the first generation of offspring has been reared and raised to breeding age, their offspring will have the greatest percentage of the lightning pattern.

 

I'm sure he'll start selling the F1 generation to major breeders such as ORA and what not, but it'll be a while before the lightning pattern is introduced into the mainstream.

Yep, just like in humans the phenotype don't necessarily get passed on from parents but instead from grandparents so these are not going to be available soon especially depending on the dominance of the genes.

 

"Inbreeding would produce the highest chance of seeing the repeated lightning pattern but you risk other genetic problems"

[mwp]

But the track record that you've posted on your blog shows to me a lot of very preventable and very simple to fix problems with many of your fish, some causing deaths.

 

Which blog are you referring to???? Who's blog are you reading?

 

If you're talking about the Maroons from PNG specifically, and the "blog" in question is the Lightning Project, I gotta be honest and call that opinion out - very easy to say when you're not living it, and not dealing with wild caught fish. It only bothers me in so much as you're not even backing up your claims to begin with, and meanwhile I've been applauded by aquarists I know and respect regarding the challenges I've overcome with this project.

 

I think sometimes the abundance of captive bred clownfish helps us forget that there are far more problems with wild caught fish. I stand by my track record with the fish on hand, knowing that there was a disease problem straight away, particularly with the wild female, who did not make it and literally had everything in the book. Then, the "morse code" who came in and instantly got mouth rot...you say "preventable and simple to fix", I say it's easy to be an armchair quarterback, particularly when it was treated with gram-negative antibiotics from the get go.

 

I know Jake wrote that the fish got "it's butt kicked" many times..that's not really true. And in fact, the one time the Lightning did get beat up it escaped a dual-lid cage, wasn't noticed by EITHER caretaker (as I was away speaking),and was in fact beat up by pygmy angelfish, not the massive female maroon in the tank. And it fully recovered. Sure, lost the Labrador Maroon through a stupid, stupid mistake where water circulation got cut off to the chamber housing it. Totally my fault.

 

I stand by this record, and I stand by my full transparency of the story from day one. Be critical if you wish, but maybe get the facts straight? How many tanks in your house? How many fish in your care? Same questions to me...and I'll also proffer, How many fish here are alive and well that I never write anything about?

 

Water quality issues? Ha...you make it sound as if I've had ammonia and nitrite killing off fish or something. Give me a break...the only water quality issues I've dealt with are fully immaterial to a clownfish...matters of SPS husbandry and color expression mostly (which, BTW, I opted to do in an effort to ensure that I would keep this tank relatively pristine). Sure, I have pH swings that I don't like, but that has everything to do with good coral growth and a small tank volume. I find it funny that you'd imply I'm having something like beginner mistakes, when in reality I'm being particularly nit-picky about this system and viewing things as "problematic" that truly aren't in the grand scheme of things.

 

I DO find this occasionally criticism very curious, and while most everyone would say to ignore it, I love a good debate but always do want to learn more about what drives the opinions when I can....maybe through discussion there's misunderstandings to be cleared up, or common ground after all. I remember Boomer calling me 2 years ago screaming "you're doing it all wrong, you're killing the fish"...and by the time he left my house a few hours later, he left saying "you totally have this under control" (and I didn't change a darn thing I was doing). So yeah, I've found people do misunderstand things from time to time.

[HVani]

I've been following the blog for a while and I think this deserves praise not more criticism. I'm not even sure where the criticism comes from half the time.

 

I love the fish, blog and tank! I even ended up getting a ecoxotic cube myself and it's aweosme!

[mwp]

What I would bring issue with would be the many possibly preventable fish loss. Due in large part to what myself, and many others would describe as poor husbandry, or flat out neglect. I'll stick with poor husbandry, since I don't really see you as the type of person who would neglect fish.

 

Please do spell them out, because my memory must be terribly foggy here. Oh,and do back up the claim of "poor husbandry" too, because I'd very much appreciate the opportunity to explain or counter. Mostly because "poor husbandry" is, to say the least, vague.

 

As far as what you called BS... Well, you'll remember it how you will, I guess. I do know who you are from Strandells. You wouldn't know who I am, though. At least I rather doubt it. I was, quite frankly, always astounded by the colonies of rare fish you managed to get ahold of. However, I tended to stick with breeding Tanganyikans. I don't remember the hap types, however, I do remember you bringing them to Dan, saying you couldn't get them to breed. Only to have them breed in Strandells tanks. I found it quite amusing, TBH.

 

Wow...you can't even remember what the fish was, you claim it was a "vic" that we couldn't breed, and he did. Wow, that's damning if I ever heard it. I'm a hack. Must be.

 

What I would call nonsense would be what happened to your old breeding operation. Not to mention what, allegedly happened to your partner. I heard rumors, but I took them as just that, rumors. Had I brought that up, that would have been fair to call nonsense.

 

What another round of empty BS Ray. Tons of innuendo and misinformation. I'll gladly clear some stuff up for you. First, I was not a "partner", I was an employee. Second, all I know, and all that probably matters, is that John Baker and his wife got a divorce, and he couldn't keep the business going through that divorce (I believe his exact words were "neither of us can buy the other out, so we have to liquidate). Whatever other stuff John did, whatever rumors you may have heard, are inconsequential to me. I handled sales and helped ramp up the breeding aspects of what John did. Never claimed more than that.

 

Of course, why the heck you feel a need to bring any of that up here in a public forum some 15 years later, in the context of the work I'm doing now with the Lightning Maroon, can only speak to the caliber of person casting the disparaging remarks anonymously.

 

Yes, nonsense, because you're an outsider acting as if you have inside information when you don't because you couldn't. LAME way to spend your time Ray.

 

I even ended up getting a ecoxotic cube myself and it's aweosme!

 

You know what sucks?! They don't sell them anymore! But you can still get the slightly larger Current Solanas, which are the same basic thing. All my JBJ nanocubes are crumbling at this point, but I don't think I have to worry about this Ecoxotic tank holding up. The stands on the nanocubes were SO BAD that when I took the tanks off them for the last time (put them on a rack I built) one of the stands actually fell apart on the spot...just collapsed.

 

NO MORE PARTICLEBOARD STANDS please. They are not made to be around water. EVER.

[Euphyllia]

Okay... Everyone take a step back out of the reefing world and look at this from a regular person's standpoint...

 

The lighting clown is spawning.

[C.I._Reefer]

Okay... Everyone take a step back out of the reefing world and look at this from a regular person's standpoint...

 

The lighting clown is spawning.

 

 

^ This!

[G0nePhishin]

God so much knowledge was dropped in this thread it is making my head spin! I have the utmost faith in Matt, and do believe this to be a true genetic mutation. Chances of it being a recessive trait? Very high. Fact that an amazing new maroon has switched to a female? priceless.

 

Can't wait to hear more.

[bues0022]

Okay... Everyone take a step back out of the reefing world and look at this from a regular person's standpoint...

 

The lighting clown is spawning.

 

Yet if we take another step back....

 

A clownfish is spawning!

 

wow. that's earth shattering

 

Also remember, while the fish is physically in Matt's care, it was Mitch May who actually got the fish to spawn. Congradulations Mitch in the successfull spawning of a fish 500 miles away! THAT is a good breeder!

[Deckoz2302]

.....I want dibs on a f1 offspring..

[herranton]

Am I the only one that things that fish is kinda ugly.

[Deckoz2302]

Am I the only one that things that fish is kinda ugly.

 

Nope, maroons in general are ugly lol...I just want one so I can get Ibluewater to mate it up with an occ and make babies

[xDetroitMetalx]

Fantastic information, great debate, juicy drama, endless amounts of jealousy. 5 stars. Will read again.

 

Seriously Matt, great job! Thank you for sharing your information and experience publicly. Keep up the good work and know we all appreciate it.

[awpong]

Nope, maroons in general are ugly lol...I just want one so I can get Ibluewater to mate it up with an occ and make babies

 

I'm not sure if ibluewater would pair them. They generally like to keep the lineage of rare species pure. Although this is technically your average, run of the mill maroon species, I'm not sure if they'd want to muddy the gene pool.

[ericm1205]

I blame MP for all my clown breeding issues!! especially when my pairs stop breeding and 90% of my hatches die within hours of hatching.......J/K!! i read the lightning blog scores of times and would give my first born to see the lightning clown in person.

 

What i really blame MP for is ACTUALLY getting me interested into clownfish breeding. kinda addicted to it now with my 12 pairs. and i want to add more until i go out of my mind!

we all have our failures and triumph's and it goes with the territory. i actually killed a beautiful pair of snowflakes that i was hoping to get to spawn....nothing like killing $400 pair of fish..

I would love to buy a the runt and half dead of the offspring...the cheapest one! Lol!! if you successfully raise these, i know it will take me a few years to get one after a few outlets might start selling them. hope you raise buckets full of them!

what i think would be cool is getting an offspring of the lightning maroon and pair it with a blue spot maroon that Ibluewater has been finding and collecting. a blue lightning maroon would be killer!