The 'Evil Cluster' revisited

[steve99999]

These leds have been used by the FLASHLIGHT guys with great results and there

are some great threads with pics showing great color at least in non aquarium

settings.

Dont sell short some of the info from the candlepower forums they really know there stuff

and this led appears to be the best nuetral white that i can find.

I believe the pcbs are from cutter on the site that has these for sale.

I will post some pics when i build my arrays.....

The 4up fit the bridgelux reflecters and the 7up work great with 50watt lenses.

[blasterman]

Keeping it real, the reason for the popularity of Nichia over at Candlepower is a because of the poor color rendering of 4k and higher Cree's and the rather irrational hatred of Luxeon over there.

 

Again, nothing against Nichia, but color wise I doubt if you'd see a color diffrence in neutral sets -vs- the better Rebel ESs. Not to mention the Rebels are cheaper, much easier to find, and have more efficiency.

 

With the Rebel M specs on a decent star you could match those with 1500lumen and higher Bridgelux neutrals. That's another point....you can over drive the Bridgelux clusters provided you have the heat sinking. You can't do this with a multi-star.

[Amdphenomx4]

I'm just glad to see you back.

 

The fortimo is basically a strip of Philips diodes? Pretty awesome.

 

The XM-L color does seem to be a quad package, and the datasheet was last updated in November of 2012, so maybe they're still in development? http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/XLamp/Data%20and%20Binning/XLampXML_Color.pdf

 

It looks like they're just calling the emitters 'blue' and not specifically royal blue, thought he spectral graph appears to peak at 455nm-ish. It also lists the output in lumens and not milliwatts.

 

 

As for the new contenders, Philips' Luxeon M royal blue is out. Future has a buttload of them unmounted, but no displayed pricing, so they must have JUST gotten them in. I've been waiting on their release since last October or so, maybe before. Can't remember when they first updated the datasheet and mentioned them, but I've been ogling ever since. The 'base' bin should get 4200mW of output at 700ma, and can be run at 1000ma to snag 5500+. The top bin hits about 5000mW at 700ma, which trumps the top-binned Rebel ES royal at 700ma (~640mW/w vs 540mW/w).

 

http://www.philipslumileds.com/uploads/354/DS103.pdf

 

The LXR8-SW50 has a large amount of cyan without having the giant hump in green like the LXR8-SW40. I will imagine that in a 'full-spectrum' setup that the LXR8-SW50 paired with two RB Ms and a few cool/standard blue Rebels will need no supplementation, except violet if wanted.

 

I emailed Steve at StevesLEDs and let him know that future has them, and he said that Philips hadn't even notified him of the release. He called and is getting bin information and will have some soon, in both NW and RB. I predict they'll retail for about what the XM-L retails for (but no one hold me to it, I haven't been told any numbers yet, so don't shoot the messenger ), and with higher efficiency and more total output they'd be the better deal.

 

Luckily, this is happening at a time when I'm moving a tank and setting up another, so I was going to change up the lighting, anyway, and can't wait to get my hands on them.

Actually I had been in contact with one of the sales managers from Future. He helped me greatly by putting the listings up but so far the web team hasn't done pricing yet. I shall message him today and see what the current status is. It may be that they can only be bought by quote but I am checking. Apparently they had a stock of 5000 in around new year.

 

Personally I was hoping the MK-R would be cheap enough to compete but the small difference of 16 lumens/watt at full power makes it not worth the extra few dollars.

 

Unfortunately they're not mounted but I've decided to do a bit of custom reflowing when the LDD come back in stock. My light plans are to output more than the Radion in white and about 30% more in royal blue while costing about 200 dollars each light. I also couldn't order them as the optics I wanted were out of stock at the time...

 

Another unfortunate thing is that I had emailed Steve about selling mounted Luxeon M early last year and there was a simple response of a wait for better binning. It has been months since and they are still not carried so I wouldn't consider them a priority on the store. Especially noted since they cost less per output than others and thus wouldn't make as much profit.

 

A positive though is there are a few Luxeon M mounted to 20mm stars sold on Future at the following links for $6.88 each. Optics are about $1.50 each depending on the one you buy.

 

4000K Luxeon M

 

5700K Luxeon M

 

Also a relevant chart comparing the performance of the Luxeon M to the 3W as well as price to performance. Estimates not on datasheet are estimated from graphs given. Values may be +- a few percent.

http://goo.gl/0nFzE

[steve99999]

Candlepower forums has comparions between all the leds you speak of and to my eyes

the NICHIA 4500k has the best color by far....WAY BETTER THEN THE REBELS

It may or may not make a difference but it looks like a resonable thing to try.

Mixing 1 white and 1 royal spaced evenly and having a CLUSTER or 2 works way

better to my eyes then adding rgb into mixes.

So finding a high cri white led thats very crisp in its color rendering is very important

and i have high hopes for the NICHIA.

I have had sometype of reef /sps tank for 20 years and have had every type of lighting

you could ever see......even had a mercury vapor 20 years ago.

My fav was a xm10000 overdriven on a HQI ballast with alot of blue light added.

PERFECT crisp white with a touch of blue.

Trying to get that crisp white......with 2 led mix

[jedimasterben]

Keeping it real, the reason for the popularity of Nichia over at Candlepower is a because of the poor color rendering of 4k and higher Cree's and the rather irrational hatred of Luxeon over there.

 

Again, nothing against Nichia, but color wise I doubt if you'd see a color diffrence in neutral sets -vs- the better Rebel ESs. Not to mention the Rebels are cheaper, much easier to find, and have more efficiency.

 

With the Rebel M specs on a decent star you could match those with 1500lumen and higher Bridgelux neutrals. That's another point....you can over drive the Bridgelux clusters provided you have the heat sinking. You can't do this with a multi-star.

Irrational hatred of Luxeon. Sounds familiar, it's like I've seen that on some other boards.

 

Actually I had been in contact with one of the sales managers from Future. He helped me greatly by putting the listings up but so far the web team hasn't done pricing yet. I shall message him today and see what the current status is. It may be that they can only be bought by quote but I am checking. Apparently they had a stock of 5000 in around new year.

 

Personally I was hoping the MK-R would be cheap enough to compete but the small difference of 16 lumens/watt at full power makes it not worth the extra few dollars.

 

Unfortunately they're not mounted but I've decided to do a bit of custom reflowing when the LDD come back in stock. My light plans are to output more than the Radion in white and about 30% more in royal blue while costing about 200 dollars each light. I also couldn't order them as the optics I wanted were out of stock at the time...

 

Another unfortunate thing is that I had emailed Steve about selling mounted Luxeon M early last year and there was a simple response of a wait for better binning. It has been months since and they are still not carried so I wouldn't consider them a priority on the store. Especially noted since they cost less per output than others and thus wouldn't make as much profit.

 

A positive though is there are a few Luxeon M mounted to 20mm stars sold on Future at the following links for $6.88 each. Optics are about $1.50 each depending on the one you buy.

 

4000K Luxeon M

 

5700K Luxeon M

 

Also a relevant chart comparing the performance of the Luxeon M to the 3W as well as price to performance. Estimates not on datasheet are estimated from graphs given. Values may be +- a few percent.

http://goo.gl/0nFzE

I spoke with Steve personally less than 24 hours ago and they will be testing their samples from Philips shortly.

 

What optics were you planning on using?

[Amdphenomx4]

Keeping it real, the reason for the popularity of Nichia over at Candlepower is a because of the poor color rendering of 4k and higher Cree's and the rather irrational hatred of Luxeon over there.

 

Again, nothing against Nichia, but color wise I doubt if you'd see a color diffrence in neutral sets -vs- the better Rebel ESs. Not to mention the Rebels are cheaper, much easier to find, and have more efficiency.

 

With the Rebel M specs on a decent star you could match those with 1500lumen and higher Bridgelux neutrals. That's another point....you can over drive the Bridgelux clusters provided you have the heat sinking. You can't do this with a multi-star.

 

I have added a Bridgelux emitter tested at 8.5W to my chart which shows how it has lower efficiency than a Luxeon M at full power as well as lower price to performance. It is a fantastic emitter but the Luxeon M is more efficient and is a bit cheaper for optics as well. If you do drive the emitter at 14W then it wins for price to performance, but loses to efficiency by a large amount.

Irrational hatred of Luxeon. Sounds familiar, it's like I've seen that on some other boards.

 

I spoke with Steve personally less than 24 hours ago and they will be testing their samples from Philips shortly.

 

What optics were you planning on using?

I was going to use these 65 degree ones. There's not much in the 60-90 degree range though so there is a disappointment for some people. They should be better than a majority of the optics sold at the various DIY LED stores.

 

Also in case of a further question, Future has no plans to sell premounted Luxeon M royal blues and the minimum order for premounted ones is 1000. It's a great thing though that they took their time to tell me about these emitters. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask as I may have had them answered already.

 

I planned out a fixture using just the Luxeon M and posted it on a couple forums for review a few weeks ago. Link. Not much activity but I wanted to also spread the word about the royal blues coming. It's a work in progress and I need my dealxtreme order to arrive before I can do anything as well. It is overall an extremely tight cluster which leaves spaces for 6 20mm stars to be added for color and such while keeping all the emitters as far away as just 40mm. It will look good and probably would get rid of any disco on the Evil cluster.

[jedimasterben]

I was going to use these 65 degree ones. There's not much in the 60-90 degree range though so there is a disappointment for some people. They should be better than a majority of the optics sold at the various DIY LED stores.

 

Also in case of a further question, Future has no plans to sell premounted Luxeon M royal blues and the minimum order for premounted ones is 1000. It's a great thing though that they took their time to tell me about these emitters. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask as I may have had them answered already.

 

I planned out a fixture using just the Luxeon M and posted it on a couple forums for review a few weeks ago. Link. Not much activity but I wanted to also spread the word about the royal blues coming. It's a work in progress and I need my dealxtreme order to arrive before I can do anything as well. It is overall an extremely tight cluster which leaves spaces for 6 20mm stars to be added for color and such while keeping all the emitters as far away as just 40mm. It will look good and probably would get rid of any disco on the Evil cluster.

Yeah, super-ultra-mega-wide optics like we use in the hobby are trumped in number by 14-20 degree lenses that everything else uses.

 

I'm looking at using the Ledil Minnie reflectors, myself, but I'm not sure if they'll need a holder to keep them on or if hot glue will work like I use on the plastic lenses.

 

It's interesting, I missed your previous post about them! While it should be plenty of light and corals will look great, it won't have a very high color temperature. I like my stuff to have a bluer look (but not like actinic only crap). For my 80g, I'm planning 4x 5000K M, 10-12x of the RB M, 10x Rebel cool/standard blues, and 24x violets. The NW, RB, and CB run on 1000ma drivers, the violet on 700ma.

 

Right now I'm running 12x Rebel ES 5000k and 32x Rebel ES RB and with both at 1000ma, there is very little blue look to the tank. I had figured with nearly a 1:3 ratio of the LEDs would lend to at least a blue tint but nope.

[Amdphenomx4]

Yeah, super-ultra-mega-wide optics like we use in the hobby are trumped in number by 14-20 degree lenses that everything else uses.

 

I'm looking at using the Ledil Minnie reflectors, myself, but I'm not sure if they'll need a holder to keep them on or if hot glue will work like I use on the plastic lenses.

 

It's interesting, I missed your previous post about them! While it should be plenty of light and corals will look great, it won't have a very high color temperature. I like my stuff to have a bluer look (but not like actinic only crap). For my 80g, I'm planning 4x 5000K M, 10-12x of the RB M, 10x Rebel cool/standard blues, and 24x violets. The NW, RB, and CB run on 1000ma drivers, the violet on 700ma.

 

Right now I'm running 12x Rebel ES 5000k and 32x Rebel ES RB and with both at 1000ma, there is very little blue look to the tank. I had figured with nearly a 1:3 ratio of the LEDs would lend to at least a blue tint but nope.

Yea, I would love if my tank had a color similar to one of the photos I took. I think it looks incredible. I figured a 1:1 would be close. So far on my tank I have started with 15000K XM bulbs, went to 14000K Ushio lamps, and are now using 12000K Coralvue.

 

Do you have a link to the optics you were looking at? On the topic of blue LEDs, I'm pretty sure the Cree XP-E were better than the Luxeons for output. I'd compare datasheets before buying them.

[jedimasterben]

Yea, I would love if my tank had a color similar to one of the photos I took. I think it looks incredible. I figured a 1:1 would be close. So far on my tank I have started with 15000K XM bulbs, went to 14000K Ushio lamps, and are now using 12000K Coralvue.

 

Do you have a link to the optics you were looking at? On the topic of blue LEDs, I'm pretty sure the Cree XP-E were better than the Luxeons for output. I'd compare datasheets before buying them.

Rebel ES are superior in output to the XP-E - 1600mW at 1000ma vs 1200mW, in favor of the Rebels.

 

Ledil C12097 'Minnie' http://www.futurelightingsolutions.com/en/Technologies/Semiconductors/Lighting-Solutions/Optics/Single-LED-Optics/Pages/1021791-C12097_MINNIE-WWW.aspx?ManufacturerName=LEDIL&isFLS=true&IM=0

[Amdphenomx4]

Rebel ES are superior in output to the XP-E - 1600mW at 1000ma vs 1200mW, in favor of the Rebels.

 

Ledil C12097 'Minnie' http://www.futurelightingsolutions.com/en/Technologies/Semiconductors/Lighting-Solutions/Optics/Single-LED-Optics/Pages/1021791-C12097_MINNIE-WWW.aspx?ManufacturerName=LEDIL&isFLS=true&IM=0

I was talking about the blue, not the royal blue. I'm pretty sure the XP-E blue were better.

 

Optics probably will work with hot glue as they themselves say glue. I don't think there is a holder for it though.

[blasterman]

 

I have added a Bridgelux emitter tested at 8.5W to my chart which shows how it has lower efficiency than a Luxeon M at full power as well as lower price to performance.

 

Bridgelux's phospor tech has always lagged behind Cree's and Philips, hence the lower RAW efficacy numbers. We can all read the datasheets I would assume, so testing is like preaching to the choir. What you may find though in terms of royals is Cree tends to over-rate their XTEs a bit. At least that's what I found.

However, the point I'm trying to make is the Bridgelux can surpass 1,000lumens with ease with a mono package, and not even breath hard. The Rebel M can't unless driven well beyond manufacturer spec. RAW efficacy is not the goal here, but decent efficacy and simplified system design.

Also, the 4000k and 5700k Amdphenomx4 linked to are *70* CRI versions. Not exactly fair comparing them to 80-85CRI Bridgelux. While this is obviously a harmless oversight, it proves an irritation I have with the general Rebel market, and that's low and high CRI version lumped together and requiring some savy tech sheet reading to find the good ones. I've tested the 70CRI / ANSI white rebel color mixes, and they are flat out terrible on reef tanks. Even the Aquastyles do better. You have to have 80 CRI or better to get the strength of the Neutral mix.

The good news is that there isn't THAT much difference in efficacy between the 70CRI Rebel M's and the 80CRI, and they'd still beat the Bridgelux in system efficiency....if that's the paper goal. I'd rather have a 1500-2000lumen Bridgelux circled by royal M's and stick some regular blues in between. Send some 400watt power sucking halides to their grave with half a dozen solder welds and better color.

Last, I'm not excactly 'diggin' the star PCB Future is using for their M's. If you really want to drive an amp / 10watts through those things be my guest. I won't, and I woulnd't sell a light using M's on those stars without hard data on their thermal resistance or it's 700mA max for me.

 

I figured a 1:1 would be close. So far on my tank I have started with 15000K XM bulbs, went to 14000K Ushio lamps, and are now using 12000K Coralvue.

 

One little nit I have with Royal Rebels is they have a shorter wavelength than typical binned Royal Crees. The Rebels are just a bit more violet, and while some people don't care it can result in neutral tanks being just a bit too purple for others. However, this can be offset with cool whites or cyan mixed in the right amount. A few Cyans seem to do a bit better to offset royal rebels.I tend to mostly use XTE-s, and cool blues work fine. Resulting color is between 10-14halides with better reds and greens.

[Amdphenomx4]

 

 

 

Bridgelux's phospor tech has always lagged behind Cree's and Philips, hence the lower RAW efficacy numbers. We can all read the datasheets I would assume, so testing is like preaching to the choir. What you may find though in terms of royals is Cree tends to over-rate their XTEs a bit. At least that's what I found.

However, the point I'm trying to make is the Bridgelux can surpass 1,000lumens with ease with a mono package, and not even breath hard. The Rebel M can't unless driven well beyond manufacturer spec. RAW efficacy is not the goal here, but decent efficacy and simplified system design.

Also, the 4000k and 5700k Amdphenomx4 linked to are *70* CRI versions. Not exactly fair comparing them to 80-85CRI Bridgelux. While this is obviously a harmless oversight, it proves an irritation I have with the general Rebel market, and that's low and high CRI version lumped together and requiring some savy tech sheet reading to find the good ones. I've tested the 70CRI / ANSI white rebel color mixes, and they are flat out terrible on reef tanks. Even the Aquastyles do better. You have to have 80 CRI or better to get the strength of the Neutral mix.

The good news is that there isn't THAT much difference in efficacy between the 70CRI Rebel M's and the 80CRI, and they'd still beat the Bridgelux in system efficiency....if that's the paper goal. I'd rather have a 1500-2000lumen Bridgelux circled by royal M's and stick some regular blues in between. Send some 400watt power sucking halides to their grave with half a dozen solder welds and better color.

Last, I'm not excactly 'diggin' the star PCB Future is using for their M's. If you really want to drive an amp / 10watts through those things be my guest. I won't, and I woulnd't sell a light using M's on those stars without hard data on their thermal resistance or it's 700mA max for me.

 

One little nit I have with Royal Rebels is they have a shorter wavelength than typical binned Royal Crees. The Rebels are just a bit more violet, and while some people don't care it can result in neutral tanks being just a bit too purple for others. However, this can be offset with cool whites or cyan mixed in the right amount. A few Cyans seem to do a bit better to offset royal rebels.I tend to mostly use XTE-s, and cool blues work fine. Resulting color is between 10-14halides with better reds and greens.

Actually, I didn't even realize I had used minimum flux vs typical on the Luxeon M. I have fixed the numbers to compare typical output between the emitters now and the Luxeon M at 80 CRI has a slightly higher output than what I had listed. So it is even more efficient now. Mind you I also gave the best numbers to the Bridgelux chip to give it a chance against the Cree and Luxeon.

 

The Luxeon M can easily pass 1000lm as well, with a bit over 1200 hit at 11.4W. Yes, if ran at 500mA it is a bit higher price to performance, but then the optics are about $1 more making them only worthwhile for tanks without optics needed. Higher wattage Bridgelux chips can output more of course, and if you must have a single LED outputting 2000 lumens, an LED array from Cree or Bridgelux is the best option, but if you only need 1200, the Luxeon M is better.

 

On the topic of the LED emitters on 20mm MCPCBs. The newer LEDs have better thermal properties and transfer heat more effectively, especially in a specific Cree model which I can't remember which one. When you compare the size of the 20mm star to that of the 100W emitters, it's not much of a different in size. Less than 10mm in each direction actually, and those are 10X higher in output with unknown materials. I see no reason a 10W LED with better thermal transfer than the XM-L would have ANY issue on a 20mm MCPCB of any quality.

 

 

[jedimasterben]

I was talking about the blue, not the royal blue. I'm pretty sure the XP-E blue were better.

 

Optics probably will work with hot glue as they themselves say glue. I don't think there is a holder for it though.

The Rebel blue is on par with the XP-E, but there is a Rebel ES blue that is better.

 

Hot glue it is!

 

Bridgelux's phospor tech has always lagged behind Cree's and Philips, hence the lower RAW efficacy numbers. We can all read the datasheets I would assume, so testing is like preaching to the choir. What you may find though in terms of royals is Cree tends to over-rate their XTEs a bit. At least that's what I found.

And the Cree sellers will always say that comparing XT-E to Rebel ES in output isn't fair for the 85C vs 25C ratings.

 

 

However, the point I'm trying to make is the Bridgelux can surpass 1,000lumens with ease with a mono package, and not even breath hard. The Rebel M can't unless driven well beyond manufacturer spec. RAW efficacy is not the goal here, but decent efficacy and simplified system design.

At 700ma (baseline), the 5000k LXR8-SW50 should throw 880 lumens in the base bin. At 1000ma it hits about 1150lm. I see what you're saying, though, cause the BXRA 40E0950-B hits 1020lm at 500ma and 1730lm at 1000ma. Drive it at 1400ma and shits out over 2000lm.

 

Also, the 4000k and 5700k Amdphenomx4 linked to are *70* CRI versions. Not exactly fair comparing them to 80-85CRI Bridgelux. While this is obviously a harmless oversight, it proves an irritation I have with the general Rebel market, and that's low and high CRI version lumped together and requiring some savy tech sheet reading to find the good ones. I've tested the 70CRI / ANSI white rebel color mixes, and they are flat out terrible on reef tanks. Even the Aquastyles do better. You have to have 80 CRI or better to get the strength of the Neutral mix.

That's one reason I asked Steve to make sure he gets the LXR8 M chips.

 

The good news is that there isn't THAT much difference in efficacy between the 70CRI Rebel M's and the 80CRI, and they'd still beat the Bridgelux in system efficiency....if that's the paper goal. I'd rather have a 1500-2000lumen Bridgelux circled by royal M's and stick some regular blues in between. Send some 400watt power sucking halides to their grave with half a dozen solder welds and better color.

I'm gonna throw a couple together once I can get some spare drivers and take them around to LFS in the area and watch them shit their pants.

 

Last, I'm not excactly 'diggin' the star PCB Future is using for their M's. If you really want to drive an amp / 10watts through those things be my guest. I won't, and I woulnd't sell a light using M's on those stars without hard data on their thermal resistance or it's 700mA max for me.

I had sent Steve what you said about the PCBs earlier to make sure he gets a good board.

 

One little nit I have with Royal Rebels is they have a shorter wavelength than typical binned Royal Crees. The Rebels are just a bit more violet, and while some people don't care it can result in neutral tanks being just a bit too purple for others. However, this can be offset with cool whites or cyan mixed in the right amount. A few Cyans seem to do a bit better to offset royal rebels.I tend to mostly use XTE-s, and cool blues work fine. Resulting color is between 10-14halides with better reds and greens.

I'm hoping that the 5000K + RB Ms don't need anything other than some cool blue, otherwise I'll have to add another driver for cyan.

 

On the topic of the LED emitters on 20mm MCPCBs. The newer LEDs have better thermal properties and transfer heat more effectively, especially in a specific Cree model which I can't remember which one. When you compare the size of the 20mm star to that of the 100W emitters, it's not much of a different in size. Less than 10mm in each direction actually, and those are 10X higher in output with unknown materials. I see no reason a 10W LED with better thermal transfer than the XM-L would have ANY issue on a 20mm MCPCB of any quality.

A good point.

[blasterman]

I see no reason a 10W LED with better thermal transfer than the XM-L would have ANY issue on a 20mm MCPCB of any quality.

 

...And is utterly contrary to the some of the recent tests I've seen over at Candlepower. The Future PCBs look exactly like the ones I get $1.19 Satistronics LEDs on. Fine for driving flashlights - not fine for driving long term reef lights.

 

Also, I should have done the math before agreeing with you guys Assuming the specs on Luxeon's data sheet are legit, an 860 lumen LXR8-SW40 comes out to slightly less than 110 lumens per watt. Jedi should probably check my math, but if that's correct then the numbers are *less* efficient than some of the bigger Bridgelux Neutrals.

 

To get >1000lumens from a 80CRI, neutral white Rebel M will require over-driving the emitter beyond the manufacturer's spec. I've learned the hard way not to do this with typical 3rd party PCBs. The Royal Blue M's on the other hand allow for some seriously potent clusters built around 1500 lumen and higher Bridgelux.

 

I currently have Eight BXRA-35E0800-Bs running on a 3x1 rail, and using a $45 fixed voltage Mean Well to drive them. I'm over driving the array at ~5amps, and just pushing south of 10,000 lumens. I use this for house plants...err, Coleus because 250watt HIDs aren't bright enough. The Bridgelux are rock solid being driven this way, and unlike the XP-Gs I tried previously at 1.4amps they aren't dimming because the PCB with the XP-Gs coulnd't handle the heat.

[Amdphenomx4]

 

...And is utterly contrary to the some of the recent tests I've seen over at Candlepower. The Future PCBs look exactly like the ones I get $1.19 Satistronics LEDs on. Fine for driving flashlights - not fine for driving long term reef lights.

 

If you don't mind, I'd appreciate a link to where people are saying the MCPCB is not enough for an LED to run properly.

 

Also, I should have done the math before agreeing with you guys Assuming the specs on Luxeon's data sheet are legit, an 860 lumen LXR8-SW40 comes out to slightly less than 110 lumens per watt. Jedi should probably check my math, but if that's correct then the numbers are *less* efficient than some of the bigger Bridgelux Neutrals.

 

When driven at 1000mA, it is outputting about 110 lumens per watt. This is however, at the maximum specified current for the LED. A Bridgelux emitter may be above it when driven at or below the test current from Bridgelux, but at least with the one I chose to compare the Luxeon M to, it is not as efficient even at test current. Is there a specific Bridgelux LED that you would like me to add to the chart for comparison?

 

To get >1000lumens from a 80CRI, neutral white Rebel M will require over-driving the emitter beyond the manufacturer's spec. I've learned the hard way not to do this with typical 3rd party PCBs. The Royal Blue M's on the other hand allow for some seriously potent clusters built around 1500 lumen and higher Bridgelux.

 

 

In my table which I wished would help in this situation, I have a Luxeon M 4000K with 80CRI outputting a typical lumen amount of over 1200 at 1000mA of current and about 11.5W. The manufacturer specifications of the LED allow up to 1050mA.

 

I currently have Eight BXRA-35E0800-Bs running on a 3x1 rail, and using a $45 fixed voltage Mean Well to drive them. I'm over driving the array at ~5amps, and just pushing south of 10,000 lumens. I use this for house plants...err, Coleus because 250watt HIDs aren't bright enough. The Bridgelux are rock solid being driven this way, and unlike the XP-Gs I tried previously at 1.4amps they aren't dimming because the PCB with the XP-Gs coulnd't handle the heat.

 

Those emitters are nice, but the point is that they are both more expensive, and less efficient than the Luxeon M 80 CRI equivalent. Using 8 3500K Luxeon M give about 9600 lumens while costing a few dollars less for the emitters and a few dollars less on optics as well as less power. At 1200 lumens the Luxeon M is about 106 lm/W while at 1000 the Bridgelux array is 103 which will drop below 100 at 1200 lumens.

[zemuss]

There is so much data in this thread.

 

Thanks!

[rO.oster]

really great discussion here, feeding my hunger for info on the diffent options for color rendering on 4-5k NWs.

[steve99999]

A couple of beamshots of some interest.

The nichia has sick color and crispness and great efficency and power.

Trying to find the shots of the rebel5k there around somewhere.

A nichia 7up or 4up with a 50watt glass lense in a cluster with rb has real potental.

[jedimasterben]

More people need to see this.

[farkwar]

/bump

 

What is the current recommended center LED array for an evil cluster?

[blasterman]

I missed a lot of this thread because I get sick of making the same points over an over and arguing with somebody who knows ziltch about color science. Flashlight people are the *worst* people to ask in regards to color rendition.

 

First, comparative beam shots for color rendition are silly...aka retarded. If you can't afford a camera with a white balance, then stay on the porch. Digital cameras have RGB sensors that don't see color like our eyes do, and there's nothing more pointless than comparing sRGB color space pictures at less then identical CCT on the internet. If you want to shoot RAW with side by side profiled camera and monitors, we might have something to talk about.

 

Second, any flashlight beam shots with Luxeon Rebel ES' -vs- Nichia or Cree will be the low CRI Rebels. I've given up asking people to define if it's a low CRI Rebel or a high CRI Rebel they are using. The rule is.... need to make Cree look as good as possible.

 

A have some of the Nichia's, and I have some of the Rebels LXW8-PW40s. There is little difference in perceptual color rendition, although the Nichias are a tad better with yellow / green. If I were to shot side by side shots, and white balance the differences you wouldn't be able to spot them.

 

Comparing a generic 5000k Cree XML and a 4500k high CRI Nichia is like comparing a high pressure sodium light to a Philips Stadium series metal halide with a CRI of 90. We know the nichia is better, and the XML is going to be green tinted and lack red/amber rendition.

 

If you were to compare the Nichia to other high CRI LEDs in the same general CCT range you'd have to really squint to see differences. You certainly woulnd't be able to see the differences under normalized CCT in a sRGB browser space. I doubt if you'd see it over a reef tank.

[Horerczy]

Could you rephrase that for us simpletons blasterman?

[jedimasterben]

A Bridgelux BXRA chip. The BXRA-40E950-B is around $6 and is around 1500 lumens at 700mA, 2000 lumens at 1000mA. The 1350-B is around 2200 lumens at 700ma and around 3000 lumens at 1000mA. The 2200-B is around 2700 lumens at 700mA, and around 3700 lumens at 1000mA. Surround them with Luxeon M royal blue, 2x or 3x at the same current as the 950-B, 3x or 4x for the 1350-B, and 4x or 5x for the 2200. Lower numbers get you around 10-12K final color, higher numbers give 14-16K. Add one cool blue Rebel per M.

[farkwar]

Thank you jediben,

 

If I wanted to use this power supply would it work with the 2200

http://www.newark.com/bridgelux/bxra-40e2200-b-00/es-rect-array-neutral-white-2200lm/dp/73T6208?in_merch=Popular%20Products&in_merch=Popular%20Products&MER=PPSO_N_C_EverywhereElse_None

 

http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/inventronics-25w-driver-700ma/ ?

 

If not,

What would be the least expensive dimmable(10v analog) power supply/driver to drive it at 1000ma?

[jedimasterben]

The 2200 pulls an average of 37v at 700mA, so that driver most likely won't work. If looking for a plug n play like the Inventronics, you'd need to use the 75w driver, but you could run two from that.

 

What size tank do you have? I've got PAR numbers in my evil cluster thread using the 1350-B, and judging by those, I doubt you'd ever need the 2200.