uglyfish 65g sps tank

[jedimasterben]

I'm still using Reef fuel - it is good stuff. It won't fix stripped water though.

Not by itself, no.

 

The beauty of the liquid dosing is that now I can limit my carbon source to raise no3 and po4. You can't stop or slow down biopellets.

+1, after my research on biopellets I decided not to do it for this reason.

[heifinator]

Looking really good, I have a similar dimension tank coming soon!

[uglyfish]

Looking really good, I have a similar dimension tank coming soon!

 

Sweet. What are you doing for lights?

[xxbrianxx]

wow how have I not seen this tank before? following...keep up the good work!

[uglyfish]

I'm thinking of getting some t5's to see how it affects color. I know the radions will GROW sps... but that's not good enough anymore. I WANT COLOR!!!

 

Nice colour from top...

 

Blahhhh from the side...

[jedimasterben]

I'm thinking of getting some t5's to see how it affects color. I know the radions will GROW sps... but that's not good enough anymore. I WANT COLOR!!!

 

Nice colour from top...

 

Blahhhh from the side...

That's how a lot of SPS are, and why most pics are taken from top-down, but not to that extreme.

 

Ecotech really didn't do their research when it came to spectrum that they need to cover - they picked sub-optimal parts from a big name because it will sell only because of the name, and as such are suffering from the same lack of coloration that a proper DIY full-spectrum array based on neutral white doesn't succumb to.

[Paleoreef103]

I'm thinking of getting some t5's to see how it affects color. I know the radions will GROW sps... but that's not good enough anymore. I WANT COLOR!!!

 

Blahhhh from the side...

If you're going to do that, get 2-4 T5s and Keep the radions. Radions lack anything under 455 nm and there are huge photosynthetic peaks between 410 and 430 nm that blue + and true actinic bulbs nail. The Radion Pro has some 420 nm LEDs in it which should help greatly, but they're an extra 200 bucks a piece a piece over the standard radion.

[uglyfish]

If you're going to do that, get 2-4 T5s and Keep the radions. Radions lack anything under 455 nm and there are huge photosynthetic peaks between 410 and 430 nm that blue + and true actinic bulbs nail. The Radion Pro has some 420 nm LEDs in it which should help greatly, but they're an extra 200 bucks a piece a piece over the standard radion.

 

I was thinking about the 400-450 spectrum. I'm not sure adding violet will fix this. It almost as if the light doesn't wrap around the coral. T5's give you that very flat light that seems fill the tank. Maybe the radion design is that the leds are too concentrated on the puck? Maybe they should be spread out over 2 feet?

 

I remember a few years ago - there were light rails for MH that would move the light across the tank to even out the light distribution.

 

Could this work to mimic t5 diffusion of light?

 

[jedimasterben]

I was thinking about the 400-450 spectrum. I'm not sure adding violet will fix this. It almost as if the light doesn't wrap around the coral. T5's give you that very flat light that seems fill the tank. Maybe the radion design is that the leds are too concentrated on the puck? Maybe they should be spread out over 2 feet?

 

I remember a few years ago - there were light rails for MH that would move the light across the tank to even out the light distribution.

 

Could this work to mimic t5 diffusion of light?

 

Yes, it works well doing that. This is one reason I run my DIY LEDs with no optics and have several pucks spread out, so they have a 120 degree spread under them that hits the entire tank. My SPS have light coming in from all sides but the back of the tank, and have begun coloring up on the sides. The Radion only having two pucks definitely isn't optimal for keeping the light even across the tank.

[uglyfish]

Jedi - I have 2 radions - with no optics. Spread of the LEDs isn't the only problem.

 

Last week I raised the radions up to about 24" above the tank and increased intensity. We'll see if it helps. I'm looking for a cheap 4 bulb t5 to supplement in the meantime.

 

The radions are a great idea. It's a well built unit for sure. But I'm looking at the nicer "eye-popping" color sps tanks and they all have T5 in common. I don't think the LEDs are there yet - maybe the coral need more time to adapt?

[uglyfish]

Show me an LED tank that has this kind of crazy pop...

http://reefbuilders.com/2012/06/21/estherea-reef-video/

[jedimasterben]

Show me an LED tank that has this kind of crazy pop...

http://reefbuilders.com/2012/06/21/estherea-reef-video/

Once I can get the white balance of a camera to help prove it, my own - color rendition (which is the most important, IMHO, as what is the point in having corals of all colors if you can only truly see a select few) and 'pop' are unmatched by any halide or T5 set. No premanufactured LED array can match my system, either.

[uglyfish]

Once I can get the white balance of a camera to help prove it, my own - color rendition (which is the most important, IMHO, as what is the point in having corals of all colors if you can only truly see a select few) and 'pop' are unmatched by any halide or T5 set. No premanufactured LED array can match my system, either.

 

OK, now you have my curiosity piqued. What are the radions missing?

[jedimasterben]

OK, now you have my curiosity piqued. What are the radions missing?

Well, Ecotech got from the DIY community that LED setups are typically missing in the cyan and deep red spectrums, 490-510nm and 660nm, respectively, and that it's also beneficial to add small amounts of cool blue, 470nm, while all kept on a base of neutral white (4-5000k) and royal blue (440-455nm).

 

They decided on:

8x cool white

8x cool blue

10x royal blue

4x green

4x red

 

It seems that they didn't try all that hard to match that. They went with cool white (7-8000k, their biggest slip-up) because they have a higher luminous output versus neutrals, royal blue, cool blue, green (530nm), and red (630nm). They're still missing cyan and amber (about 590nm), which are crucial when it comes to color rendition, and neutral hits much more amber than cool white. The lack of neutral white is the biggest downfall when it comes to certain colors, cool white just doesn't cut it.

 

If I were making the fixture, I'd choose

8x neutral white

4x cool blue

14x royal blue

4x cyan

4x deep red

 

And the fixture would fare better. I'm actually going to build one like that and send it to Sanjay Joshi to have it tested.

[uglyfish]

Well, Ecotech got from the DIY community that LED setups are typically missing in the cyan and deep red spectrums, 490-510nm and 660nm, respectively, and that it's also beneficial to add small amounts of cool blue, 470nm, while all kept on a base of neutral white (4-5000k) and royal blue (440-455nm).

 

They decided on:

8x cool white

8x cool blue

10x royal blue

4x green

4x red

 

It seems that they didn't try all that hard to match that. They went with cool white (7-8000k, their biggest slip-up) because they have a higher luminous output versus neutrals, royal blue, cool blue, green (530nm), and red (630nm). They're still missing cyan and amber (about 590nm), which are crucial when it comes to color rendition, and neutral hits much more amber than cool white. The lack of neutral white is the biggest downfall when it comes to certain colors, cool white just doesn't cut it.

 

If I were making the fixture, I'd choose

8x neutral white

4x cool blue

14x royal blue

4x cyan

4x deep red

 

And the fixture would fare better. I'm actually going to build one like that and send it to Sanjay Joshi to have it tested.

 

I don't believe the yellow spectrum has that much to do with it. Look at the super SPS T5 combos... Lots of purple and actinics. (maybe 1 or 2 white out of 8 bulbs). What about the 390-430 spectrum? The radions are clearly lacking there. Your setup has no violet?

[jedimasterben]

I don't believe the yellow spectrum has that much to do with it. Look at the super SPS T5 combos... Lots of purple and actinics. (maybe 1 or 2 white out of 8 bulbs). What about the 390-430 spectrum? The radions are clearly lacking there. Your setup has no violet?

Mine is actually heavy in violet - I missed that in my last post guess that's what I get for typing in a rush.

 

The extra yellow spectrum actually is used more than you think as far as coloration goes - as not all colors are simply reflected some are absorbed and then reflect a totally different color depending on the pigment they hit. Most of the colors reflected by blue spectrum are shades of green, which is a theory on why most corals have green on them.

 

White T5 bulbs are a completely different animal compared to white LEDs. A 10,000K T5 bulb has significantly more spectral coverage than a 10,000K LED does, which has one spike at 450-460nm and almost no other spectrum at all, to the point where I'm surprised it even looks white.

 

And as far as what violet provides is less in the manner of coloration, but they cause corals to fluoresce more, giving a black-light effect on almost all fluorescent proteins, and, in addition, hit a significant peak in chlorophyll a that is otherwise missed. Hobbyists have noticed some impressive growth after adding violet to their fixtures, but they are so powerful that they can easily bleach out corals if they are ran too high too quickly.

[uglyfish]

So in my case, what's your opinion on supplemental lighting?

A strip of violet, warm white, amber, turquoise LEDS? or a couple of T5's?

[jedimasterben]

So in my case, what's your opinion on supplemental lighting?

A strip of violet, warm white, amber, turquoise LEDS? or a couple of T5's?

Pretty much any option is going to lose the aesthetics of the Radions. Warm white or amber would both lower your color temperature (unless you added some royal blue in addition) and violet would probably have the greatest impact on the look through fluorescence, though it probably won't improve coloration much. What color temperature do you keep your Radions at?

[uglyfish]

Pretty much any option is going to lose the aesthetics of the Radions. Warm white or amber would both lower your color temperature (unless you added some royal blue in addition) and violet would probably have the greatest impact on the look through fluorescence, though it probably won't improve coloration much. What color temperature do you keep your Radions at?

 

Well, I'm not thinking of adding a light for aesthetics viewing purposes. If the corals were fully pigmented, the radions would make them look just fine.

 

I need to improve my lighting so that it might improve pigmentation on the coral.

 

Ramp up 4H 14K to 80% peak, 2H 20K @ 80%, 2H fade to night

[Paleoreef103]

Well, Ecotech got from the DIY community that LED setups are typically missing in the cyan and deep red spectrums, 490-510nm and 660nm, respectively, and that it's also beneficial to add small amounts of cool blue, 470nm, while all kept on a base of neutral white (4-5000k) and royal blue (440-455nm).

 

They decided on:

8x cool white

8x cool blue

10x royal blue

4x green

4x red

 

It seems that they didn't try all that hard to match that. They went with cool white (7-8000k, their biggest slip-up) because they have a higher luminous output versus neutrals, royal blue, cool blue, green (530nm), and red (630nm). They're still missing cyan and amber (about 590nm), which are crucial when it comes to color rendition, and neutral hits much more amber than cool white. The lack of neutral white is the biggest downfall when it comes to certain colors, cool white just doesn't cut it.

Just an FYI. Radions use 660nm reds. They aren't Cree Reds, they're osrram hyper reds. I think Radions really need more in the violet range and Cyan LEDs seem to be better than straight greens. Neutrals are a part of the problem, but not as big as you make it. Look at the graphs between a cree neutral and a cree cool white. It's a bit higher of a peak in the yellow/amber range, but not hugely different, but the Radion PRO is using a 590 yellow to add to that spectrum. Rebel NW and CW are much more different than Cree NW and CW.

 

Honestly, add 4 T5s. Look at disasters 100 gallon tank. 2 T5s definitely increased the color he got from his LED array. For you, I'd add a Purple + bulb, and fill the rest out with a mix of Blue+ and True Actinic T5s. Purple+, Blue+ and Actinic bulbs are what makes T5 fixtures hum. If you want to boost in the amber range Coral + bulbs are a viable replacement for one of the blue/actinic bulbs. Another thing to consider is that your radion might be too far from the corals and you're not getting enough punch from them. Anything more than a foot off the water and you're really losing PAR to the distance. You said you just jacked up the power and moved them further away. Try keeping them in place and increasing the power. Increasing the power on the fixtures would have been the first thing I would have tried.

[uglyfish]

Honestly, add 4 T5s. Look at disasters 100 gallon tank. 2 T5s definitely increased the color he got from his LED array. For you, I'd add a Purple + bulb, and fill the rest out with a mix of Blue+ and True Actinic T5s. Purple+, Blue+ and Actinic bulbs are what makes T5 fixtures hum. Another thing to consider is that your radion might be too far from the corals and you're not getting enough punch from them. Anything more than a foot off the water and you're really losing PAR to the distance. You said you just jacked up the power and moved them further away. Try keeping them in place and increasing the power. Increasing the power on the fixtures would have been the first thing I would have tried.

 

That's my gut feeling. Spirofucci has T5 supplements - seems like it works.

I've got an eye out for a used fixture.

 

I've had the lights down 4" off the water, 10" off the water, now I'm trying way up. (?)

I had them high and low intensity. It's always about the same with little effect.

I change the settings every 30 days or so.

[jedimasterben]

Just an FYI. Radions use 660nm reds. They aren't Cree Reds, they're osrram hyper reds. I think Radions really need more in the violet range and Cyan LEDs seem to be better than straight greens. Neutrals are a part of the problem, but not as big as you make it. Look at the graphs between a cree neutral and a cree cool white. It's a bit higher of a peak in the yellow/amber range, but not hugely different, but the Radion PRO is using a 590 yellow to add to that spectrum. Rebel NW and CW are much more different than Cree NW and CW.

That's right about the reds - I had completely forgotten that.

 

Have you seen the difference between a 1:1 CW/RB and 1:2 NW/RB fixture in person? It's pretty clear-cut the difference that neutrals make, even Cree vs. Rebel. On paper, the differences are slight enough to dismiss. In person, not so much.

 

Another reason I prefer Rebel neutrals vs Cree neutrals is that the difference between the cool white and 4000k is bigger. Over triple the amount of cyan, over double in the yellow-amber spectrum, and three times the deep red, to the point where they don't need much supplementation.

[uglyfish]

Have you seen the difference between a 1:1 CW/RB and 1:2 NW/RB fixture in person? It's pretty clear-cut the difference that neutrals make, even Cree vs. Rebel. On paper, the differences are slight enough to dismiss. In person, not so much.

 

Another reason I prefer Rebel neutrals vs Cree neutrals is that the difference between the cool white and 4000k is bigger. Over triple the amount of cyan, over double in the yellow-amber spectrum, and three times the deep red, to the point where they don't need much supplementation.

 

I think it's important to make a distinction between spectrum affecting "appearance" of colour and spectrum affecting pigmentation. I am only concerned with pigmentation. After fooling around with the radions, the radions don't lack yellow - I can make the tank look like urine if I just turn down the blue. I can actually get pretty much any colour I want (except violet). The supplementation would be 390-low 400's, violet spectrum.

 

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/d_riddle_042698.html

Here's an interesting article on sps coloration from 1998.

 

It talks about lower PAR to increase coloration. I've seen NR user Marc3lo's tank in person and I noticed how "weak" his lights seemed in comparison to mine... and how colourful his coral was, in comparison to mine. It was at this time that I decided to dim my lights. I don't have a light meter to check PAR so i'm just eyeballing the light and going from memory... not very scientific.

 

Another part of the article refers to alkalinity. I run at 8.5-9, I think I will bring it up to 10 to see if it helps with colour.

[Paleoreef103]

That's right about the reds - I had completely forgotten that.

 

Have you seen the difference between a 1:1 CW/RB and 1:2 NW/RB fixture in person? It's pretty clear-cut the difference that neutrals make, even Cree vs. Rebel. On paper, the differences are slight enough to dismiss. In person, not so much.

 

Another reason I prefer Rebel neutrals vs Cree neutrals is that the difference between the cool white and 4000k is bigger. Over triple the amount of cyan, over double in the yellow-amber spectrum, and three times the deep red, to the point where they don't need much supplementation.

Yeah. I have seen tanks lit with cools and with neutrals. The neutral tanks are better, I'm just saying that with the rest of the colors, the differences are more muted. I do think that Rebels are better for color rendition.

 

Ugly, Violets are in this weird zone where you can barely tell if they're on if you're running other lights at the same time, but really do influence total coloration.

[jedimasterben]

I think it's important to make a distinction between spectrum affecting "appearance" of colour and spectrum affecting pigmentation. I am only concerned with pigmentation. After fooling around with the radions, the radions don't lack yellow - I can make the tank look like urine if I just turn down the blue. I can actually get pretty much any colour I want (except violet). The supplementation would be 390-low 400's, violet spectrum.

 

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/d_riddle_042698.html

Here's an interesting article on sps coloration from 1998.

 

It talks about lower PAR to increase coloration. I've seen NR user Marc3lo's tank in person and I noticed how "weak" his lights seemed in comparison to mine... and how colourful his coral was, in comparison to mine. It was at this time that I decided to dim my lights. I don't have a light meter to check PAR so i'm just eyeballing the light and going from memory... not very scientific.

 

Another part of the article refers to alkalinity. I run at 8.5-9, I think I will bring it up to 10 to see if it helps with colour.

It talks indeed about some pigments not needing strong light to 'shine through', so-to-speak. Pigments are a defense mechanism that helps prevent too much light (and certain wavelengths of light) from damaging the coral. Some pigments can take more of a beating than others before giving way, but then again, this deals with the wavelengths they absorb, a PAR measure is not truly enough. For instance, I can blast a coral all day with 400mE of PAR of only blue wavelengths, but will kill it if I swap out 100mE of that for red light if the pigments that absorb red light are overwhelmed.

 

LEDs are particularly difficult to get a measure of light from just looking at them - as by their nature, they are bright pretty much no matter what. I can evenly light my tank using six 3w LEDs, and it will appear very bright, but PAR would be pretty dismal throughout.