(almost) self-sustaining macro tank

[altolamprologus]

A bit of background: my college's lab has a bunch of tanks, one of which is a temperate intertidal saltwater and the others are all freshwater. One of the freshwater tanks has been self-sustaining, except for top offs, for 2 years. No joke, the 2 fish never get fed. Sunlight grows algae which feeds freshwater copepods and rotifers which in turn feed the fish. We have an empty tank there and my marine bio professor really wants to do a self-sustaining saltwater.

 

The tank is a 30 tall and is next to a window that doesn't get direct sun, but gets indirect light all day, and it will have suppliment lighting as well, probably T5s or T8s. It will also have basic equipment like a heater and powerheads.

 

My idea was to stock it with non-calcerous macro-algae, live rock and sand and get a good micro-fauna population going before adding any fish. I was thinking 2 or 3 small gobies would make good inhabitants. Maybe a YCG and neon goby? Possible eviota gobies? For inverts, maybe a few dwarf ceriths and a couple sexy shrimp? Ideally, the sexies would eat up micro-algae that grows on rocks and stuff and would breed, producing food for the fish. The fish would also eat pods and such, and their waste would fuel more algae growth.

 

I apologize for the long post, but what do you guys think? Does it sound do-able? Has anyone ever done at least a semi-self-sustaining SW tank before?

[ednangel]

sorry don't know but it sure sounds fun, back in the days when I lived in the tropics I had a 100 gal tank self sustainable (freshwater obviously) It was sitting in my backyard the only top off were the ones made by the rain, the food was all the insects, specially mosquitoes that would lay eggs in the tank, the algae that grew in the tank and the fry of the live breeders that would spawn in the tank.

 

I don't think it helps but want it to share.

 

Keep us posted.

[keydiver]

A bit of background: my college's lab has a bunch of tanks, one of which is a temperate intertidal saltwater and the others are all freshwater. One of the freshwater tanks has been self-sustaining, except for top offs, for 2 years. No joke, the 2 fish never get fed. Sunlight grows algae which feeds freshwater copepods and rotifers which in turn feed the fish. We have an empty tank there and my marine bio professor really wants to do a self-sustaining saltwater.

 

The tank is a 30 tall and is next to a window that doesn't get direct sun, but gets indirect light all day, and it will have suppliment lighting as well, probably T5s or T8s. It will also have basic equipment like a heater and powerheads.

 

My idea was to stock it with non-calcerous macro-algae, live rock and sand and get a good micro-fauna population going before adding any fish. I was thinking 2 or 3 small gobies would make good inhabitants. Maybe a YCG and neon goby? Possible eviota gobies? For inverts, maybe a few dwarf ceriths and a couple sexy shrimp? Ideally, the sexies would eat up micro-algae that grows on rocks and stuff and would breed, producing food for the fish. The fish would also eat pods and such, and their waste would fuel more algae growth.

 

I apologize for the long post, but what do you guys think? Does it sound do-able? Has anyone ever done at least a semi-self-sustaining SW tank before?

 

If you could get all the components into perfect harmony, it might work, but I think it might be difficult to do so. I wouldn't count on the sexies breeding. Another potential problem is being able to replenish micronutrients and trace elements. even non-calcerous macro algae require iron and phosphate. The phosphate usually comes from the fish food, but fish poop would produce mainly ammonia, getting converted into nitrates, the staple of macro algae growth, but phosphate would still be needed.

 

Not trying to discourage you, but it would most likely take a bit of tweaking before you got the right balance between micro algae/ microfauna/light/macroalgae.

[midna]

Sounds pretty cool!

 

I like the green banded goby for easy no-maintenance care. I had one in a 10g and NEVER fed it. It was always fat. Similarly, I had a tailspot blenny in a 20g that was the same way. No feeding, yet always plump.

 

My sexies did well in the same no food environment for about a year and a half until I added an emerald crab. Then they slowly disappeared. Coincidence? I think not! lol.

 

I might add some stuff to stir the sand. Maybe a nassarius snail or two. Possibly a conch?

 

Either way, it should be pretty cool.

[altolamprologus]

If you could get all the components into perfect harmony, it might work, but I think it might be difficult to do so. I wouldn't count on the sexies breeding. Another potential problem is being able to replenish micronutrients and trace elements. even non-calcerous macro algae require iron and phosphate. The phosphate usually comes from the fish food, but fish poop would produce mainly ammonia, getting converted into nitrates, the staple of macro algae growth, but phosphate would still be needed.

 

Not trying to discourage you, but it would most likely take a bit of tweaking before you got the right balance between micro algae/ microfauna/light/macroalgae.

Thanks for bringing that up, I forgot to mention it. I did take into account that the tank would need some assistance for awhile and I figured I would need to feed small amounts and do monthly water changes for several months, then maybe some food and a water change every few months after that. You're right, though, it will take a lot of tweaking to get it right.

 

Sounds pretty cool!

 

I like the green banded goby for easy no-maintenance care. I had one in a 10g and NEVER fed it. It was always fat. Similarly, I had a tailspot blenny in a 20g that was the same way. No feeding, yet always plump.

 

My sexies did well in the same no food environment for about a year and a half until I added an emerald crab. Then they slowly disappeared. Coincidence? I think not! lol.

 

I might add some stuff to stir the sand. Maybe a nassarius snail or two. Possibly a conch?

 

Either way, it should be pretty cool.

Thanks for the stocking ideas! Your experiences are very encouraging. I remember wombat(a really awesome marine biologist) posted on my friend's thread that he had an eviota goby in a 1 gallon and never saw it eat but it always stayed fat. So I do believe it's possible to keep the fish fully self-sustaining. The main problem would be nutrients for the macros, especially as they grow and use up all the existing nutrients.

[ednangel]

think Mud, that might be the key to your nutrient problem.

[altolamprologus]

think Mud, that might be the key to your nutrient problem.

That would help with nutrients, but how would I have a mud substrate while still keeping the water clear?

[ednangel]

you can mix the mud with sand lay it first then add another layer of just sand. after that build your reef up and keep a log to see the progress.

[ApiratenamedJohn]

You should check out a channel by the name of newyorksteelo on YouTube. His thirty gallon nano has been running with no water changes for over 6 months. I think that might be a step in the right direction?

[Magiksurfman]

http://socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10545

 

maybe Bruce can help, hes got his sexies breeding in his macro tank, it seems more or less sexy shrimp sustaining. Either way it seems like a step in the right direction.

 

*dont personally know him just follow his thread.

[lizardfish]

it can be done, my biocube ran for over 6 months with out feeding , water changes, dosing, nothing ! other than topping off RO water.

[lawnmowerblenny]

it should be cold water stocking plans should be well researched...

[TheUnfocusedOne]

The bigger the tank the easier this would be to do. Might not be a bad idea to set it up and let everything grow for a bit before adding higher lever predators.

[drunkenmonk21]

You would prob have to trim the macro every so often too unless you add something that eats that too, although most will prob not stop with just a little bit and gorge themselves on the whole lot I know this might be frowned upon but you could also use declorinated tap water as top off to give trace and minerals back for the macro algae. Just a thought, it would also produce more micro algae and help with the micro fauna population IDK dont quot me on that like I said just a thought.

 

Good Luck

[altolamprologus]

you can mix the mud with sand lay it first then add another layer of just sand. after that build your reef up and keep a log to see the progress.

Do you know where I can mud? My college is right next to salt ponds so we might be able to get from there, I just don't want to bring predators with it.

You should check out a channel by the name of newyorksteelo on YouTube. His thirty gallon nano has been running with no water changes for over 6 months. I think that might be a step in the right direction?

That's pretty encouraging. Although not doing water changes is pretty different from having it self-sustaining, it's cool to see excess nutrients shouldn't be a problem.

 

http://socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10545

 

maybe Bruce can help, hes got his sexies breeding in his macro tank, it seems more or less sexy shrimp sustaining. Either way it seems like a step in the right direction.

 

*dont personally know him just follow his thread.

Thanks. The more I see what people have already successfully done, the more I think this project will work

 

it can be done, my biocube ran for over 6 months with out feeding , water changes, dosing, nothing ! other than topping off RO water.

What livestock did you have in there?

 

it should be cold water stocking plans should be well researched...

Unfortunately I can't do it coldwater. There's no way my college would buy another chiller just so I can play around with it.

 

The bigger the tank the easier this would be to do. Might not be a bad idea to set it up and let everything grow for a bit before adding higher lever predators.

Yeah I know a bigger tank would be much easier. Ideally I would do this on a few hundred gallon tank, but the 30 is the only empty tank my professor has. And yes, it will be without predators for quite a while.

 

You would prob have to trim the macro every so often too unless you add something that eats that too, although most will prob not stop with just a little bit and gorge themselves on the whole lot I know this might be frowned upon but you could also use declorinated tap water as top off to give trace and minerals back for the macro algae. Just a thought, it would also produce more micro algae and help with the micro fauna population IDK dont quot me on that like I said just a thought.

 

Good Luck

If the macros end up growing really fast, I may considering adding a macro algae eating predator like a small urchin or something. Hmmm the tap water is something to consider. The city I'm in uses reverse osmosis bay water so it's not full of a bunch of crap like some other cities' water.

[ednangel]

i think you can get miracle mud for less than $20

 

EDIT:

 

miracle mud: $26-$78

walt smith's fiji mud: $8-$48

mineral mud: $28

[metrokat]

Have you looked at ecospheres from brookstone? sustainable ideas can be found from that small system.

[mmcguffi]

I dont ever feed my tank and I have 2 clowns and a sun coral. as long as you have a mature, balanced tank I really dont think you need to feed or do ANYTHING really

 

I havent done anything besides top off in a few months and all of my corals and fish (and mirco fauna) seem to love it. I was doing a 1-2 gal WC every week and I noticed that when I stopped I got all kinds of pods, worms, and other little guys I had never seen before.

 

so I say yes, doable

 

(check my Edge in my sig for stock and equipment list)

[altolamprologus]

Have you looked at ecospheres from brookstone? sustainable ideas can be found from that small system.

Yes, I have seen those and they're quite amazing. Too pricey IMO though. I actually did a self-sustaining freshwater system as a science project a couple years back. It survived 16 weeks completely sealed. It never actually died, that was just the time frame my teacher gave and it was dismantled after that.

 

It would be interesting if that company made saltwater versions of those spheres, but I'm not sure what you put in someting that small.

 

I dont ever feed my tank and I have 2 clowns and a sun coral. as long as you have a mature, balanced tank I really dont think you need to feed or do ANYTHING really

 

I havent done anything besides top off in a few months and all of my corals and fish (and mirco fauna) seem to love it. I was doing a 1-2 gal WC every week and I noticed that when I stopped I got all kinds of pods, worms, and other little guys I had never seen before.

 

so I say yes, doable

 

(check my Edge in my sig for stock and equipment list)

Good to know! I guess I'm not so crazy for wanting to this after all.

 

 

 

I'm in the process of writing up a whole stocking list that I will post soon to see what you guys think and what needs to be changed.

[metrokat]

It would be interesting if that company made saltwater versions of those spheres, but I'm not sure what you put in someting that small.

 

I thought those ecospheres were salt water? They have dead coral, some have brine shrimp. I could be wrong.

[altolamprologus]

I thought those ecospheres were salt water? They have dead coral, some have brine shrimp. I could be wrong.

I just googled it and yeah ecospheres are saltwater. I was thinking of a different company tat makes freshwater ones, I can't remember the name though

[tako]

I also think it might be possible. I feed my 17g macro tank with two clowns, a goby, and a cleaner shrimp everyday, but I still only change the water every 3-4 weeks. However, I run a skimmer and dose alk and iron. With a light bioload and little feeding you could probably get away with every few months.

 

One major issue you may encounter is macros dying due to the lack of food. I've had several species of macros die off on me because I believe my water is too clean or other species are out competing them. However, when some of the macros start decaying you'll get a nutrient spike. Even after six months I'm still seeing certain species that were dying before now thriving and others stop growing.