New LED drivers

[Milad LEDGroupBuy.com]

he didnt say they were made here just that they were designed here , like crees, in durham NC

 

i dont think they are even designed in the USA. could be wrong, just reading info on the sites. TRP is just a re-distributer it seems.

 

btw im not knocking them, they look good.

[evilc66]

Sorry you may be half right and i was also a bit wrong

 

if you think they are made in the US you are wrong. CREEs arent even made the in USA.

 

TRP are same as http://www.inventronics-co.com

 

even thought I cant find a link between them an meanwell, they sure look like the HLG

 

Never said they were made here. There is a big "Made in China" note on the bottom corner of all of the product labels. The Inventronics link doesn't mean a whole lot IMO. TRP is listed as one of their partners, along with a host of other companies that either use the drivers, or supply components to them (like Foxconn). It still doesn't mean that TRP doesn't design the drivers here in the US. It just means the same drivers are available in two different parts of the world from two different companies. In all likelyhood, Inventronics manufacturers the drivers based on TRP's design, and a licensing agreement is in place to distribute in that part of the world. I can't 100% verify any of that at the moment, but are looking into it. We have been told on numerous occations before by the CEO of the company that these are US designed products. Not that it really means much, as they are still superior drivers.

 

And they still aren't HLG drivers. Sure, the enclosure looks similar, but the dimensions are different, and the electronics certainly are. The specs don't line up in any way shape or form.

[Milad LEDGroupBuy.com]

Never said they were made here. There is a big "Made in China" note on the bottom corner of all of the product labels. The Inventronics link doesn't mean a whole lot IMO. TRP is listed as one of their partners, along with a host of other companies that either use the drivers, or supply components to them (like Foxconn). It still doesn't mean that TRP doesn't design the drivers here in the US. It just means the same drivers are available in two different parts of the world from two different companies. In all likelyhood, Inventronics manufacturers the drivers based on TRP's design, and a licensing agreement is in place to distribute in that part of the world. I can't 100% verify any of that at the moment, but are looking into it. We have been told on numerous occations before by the CEO of the company that these are US designed products. Not that it really means much, as they are still superior drivers.

 

And they still aren't HLG drivers. Sure, the enclosure looks similar, but the dimensions are different, and the electronics certainly are. The specs don't line up in any way shape or form.

 

Post what you find out on where they are designed. I was actually looking to get some in from Inventronics a few weeks ago, I thought they were the "designers\ manufactures" but might be wrong. Great find though!

[blasterman]

Getting back to the voltage thing.......

 

There are some pretty significant differences in the wiring safety regulations of any lumiaire up to 24volts, and then beyond. Up to 24volt you can use open rails and all kinds of nuttiness. Beyond 24volts things are much more strict.

[thewire]

Is there any cutsheet to show the comparison on both drivers? It's seems to premature to call MW is a bad driver when the person that the person calling the shots about them are the same group that have economic benefits to it. no offend

[redfishsc]

Is there any cutsheet to show the comparison on both drivers? It's seems to premature to call MW is a bad driver when the person that the person calling the shots about them are the same group that have economic benefits to it. no offend

 

 

Um, nobody said the Meanwell was a bad driver. It has less features that the new TR driver that nanotuners is carrying, which ares available in much smaller and much larger packages than the Meanwell.

 

 

Right now we're basically stuck with the Meanwell or Buckpucks for dimmable drivers, and neither of them is idea. Buckpucks are small and costly, Meanwells are more affordable but require an extra plug outlet and DC input.

 

 

He said the TR drivers had better features and apparently better internal electronics but he never said Meanwell was a bad driver.

[DaveFason]

Being one of the only reef people to use the HLG for our applications I can tell you its not NEARLY as cut and dry as we would like. You cant dim them nearly as much as the Thomas drivers and you have to run them in a parallel which sucks with a high string count. Having to factor in fV for each LED string blows, on top of adding fuses and resistors to them. With these Thomas drivers we can run them in the series safely and dim them much more accurately. Joe Smoe should not just run out and make his own 150+ LED build.

 

The ELN's run hot, have surge problems and require extra parts that these drivers take out of the equation. Whats not to like about them.

 

Earlier someone commented on running the XP at 450mA. On the large build I ran all the XP RB's at 350mA with 40 degree optics an still have PAR readings 3' down to grow stuff. Its all about utilizing what you have! Most people nuke there tanks when its really not needed....

 

-Dave

[kcress]

For sure Meanwell is missing the boat in many ways. They have about 20x the products they should be offering. That results in confusion by the distributors who are afraid to carry anything for fear of it not being The One the market ends up wanting. That's really annoying.

 

Also the fact that they didn't bother to provide the power for the dimming circuit greatly increases the hassle of providing dimming.

 

As for the HLGs it should be noted that the 185's and below do allow 100% dimming. The 240 does not allow less than 50% and of course the 320 is still vaporware and won't go below 50% either..

[evanski]

Stupid electronics/driver question...

 

If I wanted to run a combination of LEDs at 1000, 700, and 500 mA, do you need a driver for each current you want to control with the new drivers? It would suck to have to, for example, have a separate driver for just one or two violet LEDS...

[evilc66]

You can wire two in parallel and treat them as a single LED. That will halve the currentto each LED.

[evanski]

You can wire two in parallel and treat them as a single LED. That will halve the currentto each LED.

Thx...this I understood, even being electronically challenged!

 

What I was thinking is that if I DIY'ed a fixture for a 20L, and wanted (a theoretical build) of 4 NW/4CW at 1000 mA, 16 blues at 700 mA, and 2-4 violets at 500 mA I would be stuck with three drivers, yes?

 

Of course, I could probably just cut to the chase and get two Par38's, huh?

[redfishsc]

I was thinking about this earlier today actually.

 

 

So if I were to wire, say, 10 LEDs in series and then split off from one of the LEDS, two leads and LEDs, and then back to a single lead, I could still run XPG's at 1,000mA and run something like reds or cyans at 500mA. On the same string---

 

Do I assume that sprouting the two off in parallel will equal the same vf as a single LED? I also assume these two LEDs need to be basically the same thing (two of the same vf), right?

[kcress]

I was thinking about this earlier today actually.

 

 

So if I were to wire, say, 10 LEDs in series and then split off from one of the LEDS, two leads and LEDs, and then back to a single lead, I could still run XPG's at 1,000mA and run something like reds or cyans at 500mA. On the same string---

 

Do I assume that sprouting the two off in parallel will equal the same vf as a single LED? I also assume these two LEDs need to be basically the same thing (two of the same vf), right?

 

 

The answer is yes - with conditions. LEDs are all over the map on their individual Vfs. So buying two red LEDs and hooking them in parallel and then sticking them into a string could work fine. It could also be a disaster. You essentially need to measure their two currents independently to confirm their Vfs aren't excessively different. I always recommend the series resistors so you can see the current any time without disturbing the string's operation. You can use a 1ohm resistor and when you measure the voltage (because it's one ohm) the current is the exact same value as the voltage you measure. No thinking needed. So I'd stick a 1 ohm resistor permanently in each of the red LEDs paths. This would allow you to measure the individual LED currents and see if they're balanced with-in reason.

 

In the example above, if you add the two currents you would have the entire string's current value also.

 

If when measuring these two currents you found one to be more than 10% or 15% different you'd need to swap in another red one to see if that brought them closer together. This can be pretty tedious with only a few LEDs to exchange. Whereas having 24 whites or 48 blues would give you a nice field to swap from.

 

 

One detail: With parallel strings it's not good enough to have the various strings having the same Vf. The strings should also have the same exact types of LEDs. So if you have 8 blue and 4 white in a string the parallel string must have the same number of the same types. This is because the actual Vfs vary with temperature and with age. These shifts will remain similar between matched strings even as they change temperature and age. If you don't maintain the same types and numbers your strings can go out of balance over time or with temperature.

[evilc66]

Thx...this I understood, even being electronically challenged!

 

What I was thinking is that if I DIY'ed a fixture for a 20L, and wanted (a theoretical build) of 4 NW/4CW at 1000 mA, 16 blues at 700 mA, and 2-4 violets at 500 mA I would be stuck with three drivers, yes?

 

Of course, I could probably just cut to the chase and get two Par38's, huh?

It would be better to run everything seperately. Kcress covered everything pretty well in his description of parallel wiring. I rarely ever recommend parallel wiring of any LED setup, because there are so many issues with it that have to be taken into account, and so many potential failure modes that can create other issues.

[redfishsc]

Ok, great info. FYI this is going over a freshwater plant tank so I'm playing with the color effects. Main lights will actually be 24 Crees (white/blue, both dimmable) and then the following which will be used to simulate dusk/dawn...... hopefully:

 

Two large SatisLED beasts (15K cold white) driven at about 600-700mA, maybe less.

 

 

I plan on putting a couple red XPE in the mix but I don't want to drive them at 700mA and I don't want a separate driver. So if I ran a parallel twin of the red XPE, even if one of them blows, the other one will only get 700mA, which is within spec for both voltage and current. Theoretically.

 

The driver would only have 4 or 6 LEDs (I haven't tallied up the vf totals and decided yet), but it would be the two big SatisLED cold whites (16-20v) and 2-4 reds. SatisLEDs in series with the reds in parallel for half current.

 

The driver will be a Meanwell ELN60-48.

 

If it ends up in looking like a tank of smurf blood, I can always say "whooops" and move on lol.

 

The situation I'm thinking of using this in would have me running the total current at 700mA

[DaveFason]

Evil,

Silly question but if I am testing the drivers with a 10K POT will this only go half way or will I not have as fine adjustments?

 

-Dave

[evilc66]

We are looking into that. I've had these drivers dim a lot more than I had with this setup.

[DaveFason]

So with a 10K pot it will still work?

 

-Dave

 

We are looking into that. I've had these drivers dim a lot more than I had with this setup.

[evilc66]

Yeah. It just doesn't dim it down as far as I remember it doing on another driver. I'm going to try and find out what the deal is tonight.

[mseepman]

One thing that we have forgotten to note about the dangers of high voltage with these drivers, is that these drivers have output short protection, minimizing short and shock risk.

 

Could you expand on this? I am planning to do a large LED build (about 200 LEDs) and was planning to use some combination of the HLG Meanwells in parallel. It's a lot of work and my electrical knowledge is far from great.

 

Does the short protection you mention above deal with the issues that KCRESS mention about electrical shock? Would I still have a good chance at getting fried if I run larger series sets with these?

[evilc66]

Short circuit protection can help protect you from getting zapped, but the biggest protector is knowing what you are doing. I find it somewhat funny that the DC voltage got brought up, but no one ever mentioned the dangers of the AC side. It's just as dangerous, but for some reason we feel more confident working around it. Also, MH retros are not that uncommon, and that's dealing with voltages north of 4KV. So why the big concern now? Sure, you need to be careful, but that applies to anything you do when working with electricity of any voltage.

 

Here is what you do:

 

-Electrically isolate the LEDs from the heatsink. Do that with either thermal epoxy (doesn't always guarantee isolation), or thermal adhesive pads.

-Keep wire strip length short, and make sure exposed copper is not touching the side of the pcb.

-Don't touch the array with bare hands when it's powered up.

-Pay attention.

 

There is nothing special there. It's all things that should be done regardless of the voltage that you are dealing with.

[firechild]

I've just ordered 8x MW ELN-80-48D and have been reading about these TR drivers since Evil mentioned them a few weeks ago. Being able to run longer strings (I'll have 36 RBs in my build) would make life so much easier as would a built in reference voltage for dimming. I have a couple of concerns and I'm not sure if they are warranted.

 

Firstly, with voltages upwards of 100V, I'm guessing the guage of the wires hooking up the emitters is going to increase. Will this make it more difficult to work with, especially for builds where stings are not simply straight lines of alternating colours (such as CW/RB)?

 

Secondly, for suspended units we have 2 options, either make the unit big enough to house all the drivers or rum cables from remote drivers. Lower voltage drivers can be run remotely fairly easily, network cable is generally sufficient and they have a enough cores to run numerous drivers per cable. Voltages any higher than 48V cause problems, we need to step up to cable that will handle 250-300V, leaving us with normal electrical cable with either 2 or 3 cores, only enough to run power from a single driver. For 4 colours, we need 4 cables. This is a pretty unattractive look. Is there any suitable alternatives? Even 4 cores would make life easier, most of which need to be hardwired which makes maintenance problematic.

[evilc66]

Increasing the voltage does not require an increase in wire size. Increasing the current does. Actually, at higher voltages, the voltage drop across the length of wire is less significant than at lower voltages. The only concern would be the insulation dielectric strength, but most wire rated for DC operation has the insulation rated for up to 300v operation anyway. 600v dielectric strength insulation isn't all that uncommon.

[firechild]

Thanks for the info. Going by this wire claculator there would be no problem running 171VDC (the voltage of a TR 120W/700mA driver) though 23AWG wire, meaning I could still run the signals through a cat6 data cable. Anyone see any issue with this?

[evilc66]

It's all dependant on how long of a run of wire you will have. The longer the run, the more voltage drop that you see, which equates to hotter wires, and wasted energy. How long is your run from the drivers to the LEDs?