New Algae Scrubbers

[BLoCkCliMbeR]

 

i know, its awesome, but not reef safe

[SantaMonica]

Although almost no aquarist knows this (athough every marine biologist does), algae produces all the vitamins and amino acids in the ocean that corals need to grow. Yes these are the same vitamins and amino acids that reefers buy and dose to their tanks. How do you think the vitamins and amino acids got in the ocean in the first place? Algae also produces a carbon source to feed the nitrate-and-phosphate-reducing bacteria (in addition to the algae consuming nitrate and phosphate itself). Yes this is the same carbon that many aquarists buy and add to their tanks. In particular, algae produce:

 

Vitamins:

 

Vitamin A

Vitamin E

Vitamin B6

Beta Carotene

Riboflavin

Thiamine

Biotin

Ascorbate (breaks chloramines into chlorine+ammonia)

N5-Methyltetrahydrofolate

Other tetrahydrofolate polyglutamates

Oxidized folate monoglutamates

Nicotinate

Pantothenate

 

 

Amino Acids:

 

Alanine

Aspartic acid

Leucine

Valine

Tyrosine

Phenylalanine

Methionine

Aspartate

Glutamate

Serine

Proline

 

 

Carbohydrates (sugars):

 

Galactose

Glucose

Maltose

Xylose

 

 

 

Misc:

 

Glycolic Acid

Citric Acid (breaks chloramines into chlorine+ammonia)

Nucleic Acid derivatives

Polypeptides

Proteins

Enzymes

Lipids

 

 

Studies:

 

Production of Vitamin B-12, Thiamin, and Biotin by Phytoplankton. Journal of Phycology, Dec 1970:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...2406.x/abstract

 

Secretion Of Vitamins and Amino Acids Into The Environment By Ochromanas Danica. Journal of Phycology, Sept 1971 (Phycology is the study of algae):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...1505.x/abstract

 

Qualitative Assay of Dissolved Amino Acids and Sugars Excreted by Chlamydomanas Reinhardtii (chlorophyceae) and Euglena Gracilis (Euglenophyceae), Jounrnal of Phycology, Dec 1978:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...2459.x/abstract

[BLoCkCliMbeR]

hmm did he just list the nutrition facts from the back of a nori package?

[Markushka]

looks like it. And just because the algae produces these it does not mean that any of these are released into the water. If you took the algae and broke up its cells and then dosed that to the tank you would get that into the water, but thats the same as dosing phyto. and I don't have to have any science experiments on the living room wall.

[wombat]

Although almost no aquarist knows this (athough every marine biologist does), algae produces all the vitamins and amino acids in the ocean that corals need to grow.

 

Algae also produces a ton of organic compounds that kill corals. So I'll ask again:

 

Can we see a picture of a nice looking tank filtered with an algae scrubber?

 

How does an algae scrubbed system deal with dissolved organic carbon? DOC will rise just like nitrate and phosphate in a system devoid of filtration strategies that target it (protein skimming, GAC, GFO).

 

Thanks.

[BLoCkCliMbeR]

Algae also produces a ton of organic compounds that kill corals. So I'll ask again:

 

you might be on his blocked list

[lakshwadeep]

"algae" is such a broad term, and many of the compounds listed are not willingly given up to corals but instead gained from other organisms that eat algae, especially for non-photosynthetic corals. Even for photosynthetic corals, I don't see how separate algae scrubbers would help provide them nutrients.

[wombat]

I don't see how separate algae scrubbers would help provide them nutrients.

 

They can actually do the opposite, at least for nitrate and phosphate. "Zero" of either of these would be a very bad thing as far as corals are concerned, and algae scrubbers can get pretty close to accomplishing it.

[SantaMonica]

Success updates...

 

Trichome on the CR site: "I took my skimmer out of my 29g sump about 2 months ago. Since then i have not done a water change...I know i should but i am bad about that. I NEVER have to clean my glass in my DT. I don't take water parameters so i can't tell you what mine are, but i do know i don't get any algae in my tank other than bubble algae. I harvest one side of my scrubber about every 2 weeks [needs to be more often]. The water must be pretty clean because my 2 golden striped maroon clowns have spawned, for their first time, about 1 month after i took my skimmer out. Not only are there several people in Cincinnati trying algae scrubbers with great success there is a 50 page thread of people with great success too. 6 month update: I have had my turf scrubber going on my 29g tank for 6 months now without a skimmer. Currently i have 2 Gold Stripped Maroon clownfish, a Yasha gobie, a sixline wrasse, 2 cleaner shrimp, and a candy cane pistol shrimp in the tank, along with several anemones. I have to say everything had been running great! I only have to clean the glass about once a week. Everything in the tank seems to be very happy with the current bio load. I have been doing water changes about once every 2 months (I know i should be doing it more) [not really]. As far as i can tell the turf scrubber has been a success for me and when i move i plan on adding one to my 120g display tank. However, I will not be going skimmerless on the 120g display."

 

Redwing on the CR site: "I set [my scrubber] up to remove algae from my display tank (and that is exactly what it is doing). But I now I have noticed that my skim-mate is much darker and that I do not have to clean it as much (about once every week not every other day). also like I posted my nitrates have never been undetectable (more like 5+ ppm) so if you ask me [the scrubber] is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Could I take my skimmer offline maybe but I most likely will not I like knowing that I have backup if something fails [except, skimmers don't remove ammonia, so they won't help]. also my skimmer is a CL125 and I have more than 160 gallons in my hole setup so my skimmer has always been way undersized. (most people would use a skimmer twice that size for this many gallons)"

 

Mrbncal on the scrubber site: "I have a 75 w/ 30 gallon sump and ran w/o a skimmer for over a year BEFORE I found out about ATS'. There were some things that didnt do well, but anenomes and zoas, most lps did great, montis and a few acros grew fine w/o a skimmer. Bubble algae and hair algae did great also. Since I started running a screen covered in algae my tank has never been healthier. Its been 6 mos or so maybe 7, I have NO hair algae and the bubble algae is losing ground. Almost gone completely. I feed a ton of frozen and oyster feast. I should probably back off some feedings but the coco worms love life and the gorgonians are growing, so why change anything."

 

Tien on the MFK site: "So I have been running a scrubber on a test tank with goldfish. At one point nitrates were near 80 ppm (I know this is WAY high, but I did this intentionally with the goldfish). I have done no water changes, and my nitrates are now about 7 ppm! and nitrites are zero. I do not have the best set up with lighting yet and the scrubber set up only cost me $25, but it works with fresh water! [yes scrubbers work just as well with FW]. I am going to continue to add goldfish and overstock the tank to see how the scrubber handles it. Looks like I will be building a large scrubber system for the 500 gallon!"

 

Billy_m24 on the MFK site: "my algee scrubber is working, I finally have purple on my rocks! I have 175 reef tank with 2 400w MH light and 2 blue vho, my nitrate was always very high in the red zone, and now after 2 month [of using the scrubber] I'm running about 10 on the nitrates and I have purple [on the rocks], and my ph stays at 8.2"

 

PRC on the LR site: "I use a scrubber on a 180g tank, that I upgraded from a 90g tank. Neither ever had a skimmer. I ran across this [scrubber] thread when I was initially cycling my tank, I set it up according to specs, I've never had 1 piece of algae in my tank. I, like everybody, get the usual dusting on the glass that gets brushed off. But I've never had algae, and I've never had nitrates above 5ppm. I feed alot because I've got big fish with big appetites. I also have very little clean up crew. I panicked when I first set mine up because I didn't think it was working. I just left it, it started to work and has kept my tank very stable. Just tweek it a little and give it time. It doesn't take control of the system overnight, but once it does it keeps it very stable....on top of that it only takes about 5 minutes to clean once per week. I'm so naive when it comes to algae issues that when I read a thread about hair algae, I automatically assume that somebody is just neglecting there tank terribly because I've never had to deal with it."

 

Renman303 on the MD site: "I have been running a 4-sheet (8 1/2" x 11") ATS since June '09 with not only no ill effects but, my water is crystal clear! I have unhooked my Deltec AP851 Protein Skimmer in July of '09 (anyone want to buy it?) and have been running solely on the ATS since then (~15 months). I scrape one side of each of the 4 sheets once a month [needs more often!]. I add no chemicals of any kind to the water and only do a 10 percent water change once a week. Salt is much cheaper than chemicals. I don't even use RO/DI water any more. I just run through Carbon as Phosban prior to mixing. Simple....as it should be!"

 

Vannpytt on the scrubber site: "I'm experiencing massive amounts of live particles in my water. When the lights go out, and I turn on a flashlight, I can see with my bare eyes 1-3mm long shrimplike creatures swimming in the water, jumping on the stones. It's amazing, while the water is so clear, there are still so much life. I'm also experiencing massive critical comments from the local forums claiming I'm destined to fail etc. I still have no values measurable of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate nor phosphate. The pH is fine as well as the salinity. The algae growth [in the tank] that came initially, is slower, and I added 2 lawnmovers to take care of the rest. Coraline is spreading on the live rocks, I added a Sun Coral who seems to be happy, as well as some Zoas."

 

Vykhang on the scrubber site: "After 4 yrs, it has become so hard to maintain my 300 gal reef/fish tank due to nitrate and phosphate. Just doing 10-15 percent water changes on 300 gal tank per week is driving me crazy not to mention salt cost. After seaching the net and came across this website, I've started my own version of scrubber. It has been running over a year for me and I've not changed (add only) water since (I don't belive in changing water if all chemicals are in spec. The scrubbers are 1" above the water line to minimize the water noise [would be even better to have the screens in the water]. Water line is maintained by electronic sensor. Can't speak for everyone but the results has been absolutelly wonderful. Nitrate and Phosphate are un-detectable. I can't thank Santa Monica enough because little to no water changes. I just maintain chemical additives and add water to my reserve tank."

 

Yesman on the scrubber site: "I clean it all off completely every 7 days. However as you can see with over 3 pounds in weight of algae every 7 days being scraped off the screen and with nitrates and phosphates at zero, it may be ok to clean this way. Interesting to note that at the bottom of the acrylic box, the water level is about 3 inches with algae growing all over the acrylic and alive with pods, even some amphipods!"

[SantaMonica]

Cleaning Guidelines:

 

Black/oily growth, but no green: Clean every last bit of it off every three days.

 

Dark brown growth, but no green: Clean all of it off every 4 days.

 

Light brown growth, but no green: Clean most of if off every 5 days.

 

Mostly brown growth, but some green: Clean all of the brown off every 6 days, but leave some of the green.

 

Half brown and half green growth: Clean most of it off every 7 days.

 

Mostly green growth: clean most of it off every 10 days.

 

 

In all cases, stronger lighting will help you get to green faster, even if the extra lighting is only temporary.

 

Also, when there is lots of green, you are getting the most filtering. So to minimize nutrient spikes which might occur after cleaning the green off, consider cutting the screen vertically into two halves, and cleaning only one of the halves every 5 days. This give 10 days of growth for each half (about the max you can go), but always leaves the other half to do the filtering.

 

After several months, you may start getting some thick brown algae that feels like fuzz, and it won't come off. That's turf algae. You don't want turf because it's thick and dark, and it blocks light from reaching the screen (also, because turf does not grow fast enough to be a good filter.) Scrape the turf off with a hack saw blade. Matter of fact, if you start getting turf, you can just start doing all your weekly cleaning with a hack saw blade.

[brandon429]

Out of all this what Id like to see posted is the breakdown in percentages of macronutrients required for plant growth namely carbon and nitrogen, the weight in grams required to make a plant...I don't have that stuff handy

 

The way I understand the trail of organic compounds in a turf system is that whole protein/organic matter is degrading in the system into its elemental parts rather than being removed beforehand (skimming) so the plant biomass in the ats system can use this reduced fuel and essentially bind it faster than algae in the main display can consume it. compounds can be degraded in the water column via bacteria metabolic action, light cleaving and oxidation Id think there would be mechanisms to break it down. although Im not sure, thats my guess for why DOC's can be controlled in an ats system just brainstorming. I know the yellowing indicates some accumulation...what vexes me is carbon should be the heaviest element by weight in a plant Im suprised it doesn't garner as much from the surroundings...

 

I think its impossible to know if all the compounds are being exchanged between the ats system and the corals, or if that's an incredibly short list of the actual exchanges we haven't discovered yet. The best proof for me is if it works. If people will post up threads of tanks that have less front algae because its being bound in the back, Im for it. Whatever is repeatable and keeps a coral scape free of algae should be the final decision maker...

[cptbjorn]

the molar ratio of C:N:P varies a lot among different organisms and many organisms are capable of adapting their ratio depending on available nutrients.

 

But I know that the standard ratio for phytoplankton in excess nutrients is 106:16:1 (C:N:P), this is known as the redfield ratio.

[Trick]

pictures....

[brandon429]

mighty good thanks

[JPF]

Although almost no aquarist knows this (athough every marine biologist does), algae produces all the vitamins and amino acids in the ocean that corals need to grow.

This attitude is very self defeating. People stop listening when you speak to them in a condescending manner.

 

 

How do you think the vitamins and amino acids got in the ocean in the first place?

That is a question that no one has yet to fully answer.

[SantaMonica]

The way I understand the trail of organic compounds in a turf system is that whole protein/organic matter is degrading in the system into its elemental parts rather than being removed beforehand (skimming) so the plant biomass in the ats system can use this reduced fuel and essentially bind it faster than algae in the main display can consume it.

 

Pretty much correct. Instead of "faster", however, the operative words would be "more powerfully". The nutrients get to all parts of the tank at the same time (same speed), but the area with the high turbulence (flow), brightest light, and roughest surface will out compete the other areas.

 

compounds can be degraded in the water column via bacteria metabolic action, light cleaving and oxidation Id think there would be mechanisms to break it down. although Im not sure, thats my guess for why DOC's can be controlled in an ats system

 

Yes it's the bacterial action which keeps DOC at low levels. That's why when you add carbon (vodka etc), the bacteria then have something to consume. Otherwise, any DOC available is consumed by the bacteria. This is too bad, because even though the bacteria feed the corals, you want more of the DOC vitamins and amino acids in your water to feed the corals. That's why people need to dose vitamins and amino's... because there is not enough in the water. High-DOC scrubbers, which will supply large amounts of DOC vitamins and aminos, are just now being investigated.

 

I know the yellowing indicates some accumulation

 

Yellow is DOC, but not the kind you want. Yellow is from dead/decaying plant matter, and is what you get if you let a scrubber go without cleaning it, or even if you clean it without removing the screen first.

 

what vexes me is carbon should be the heaviest element by weight in a plant Im suprised it doesn't garner as much from the surroundings

 

If what you mean is why plants don't absorb DOC from the water, it's because plants (algae) are autotrophs, not heterotrophs; they only make living matter from light and C02. So yes they use and have a lot of carbon, but it comes from CO2, not from food (DOC) in the water.

 

I think its impossible to know if all the compounds are being exchanged between the ats system and the corals, or if that's an incredibly short list of the actual exchanges we haven't discovered yet.

 

The studies have been going on for 40 years or so, so the researchers do know quite a bit about the primary production and microbial food webs. Do a simple ReefBase search for "coral phytoplankton" to get an idea:

 

http://www.reefbase.org/resource_center/pu...ation/main.aspx

[callmesaul8889]

goodness. i remember reading posts by this guy ~6mo ago and i couldnt get over how much effort he put into writing up these articles. i can't believe he's still here considering how many people flamed his threads constantly, and like the trooper he is, he just keeps on posting without any offense. he's ...like... flame retardant!

[StevieT]

I thought this guy was banned....

[callmesaul8889]

I wish this guy was banned....

 

FTFY

[SantaMonica]

Here is the micro table saw that I use to cut the slots in the pipes:

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/MTS3.html

 

It comes with two blades, and if you put them together like a pancake the thickness will be perfect for a 1/8 inch slot for a single layer of plastic canvas. I've cut about 20 slots and the blades are just starting to need replacing. There are other similar micro saws if you search for them ("mini table saw", etc), as well as some slightly larger "mini" table saws which get a bit expensive for just cutting pipes.

 

[Phyto4life]

 

I love this design.

 

because it utilizes all of the t5 h.o light

 

hopefully I can get away with 2 x 24" h.o t5 light on a 29G?

 

 

 

Who asked?

[Phyto4life]

I thought this guy was banned....

 

 

lol

 

Jesus

[SantaMonica]

2 x 24" h.o t5 light on a 29G?

 

This would be 48 total watts; plenty for a regular 29g.

[SantaMonica]

Here is what it seems the 25 is going to look like. The pink part on the top is the lid. The open part on the front is where the bulb and ballast go. The bottom is open, and will sit on a 5-pound metal plate. The back side will have the water tubes and drains:

 

[brandon429]

I never saw any reason to ban SantaM.

That's why people need to dose vitamins and amino's... I would say this part is flexible though, i don't add them and I also don't have algae in my tank as just one of many variations on design that works. I feed heavier than most. 100% of my vitamin and amino acid in suspension is maintained by feed additions and continual breakdown and a careful timing with an export/water change system which is probably the most aggressive in reefkeeping. its polar opposite of this plant based approach which I respect for blending more forms of life together in mutual benefit and probably less work overall.

 

over time I turned into an algae hater lol but enjoy reading from those who harness it. whoever sticks coral to the glass wins we are all good lol

 

perhaps the biggest amazement in reefkeeping progression is just how many ways there are to success, which is strong coral growth and systems that preserve whatever the keeper has in mind, long term.

 

in the 90's, there were about three ways to success and everyone was just certain of that.