Do I need patience? or is something wrong?

[JLTRUK]

well, hey man whatever floats your boat. if you liked the mixed water they sell and its working out for you awesome. I just have a hard time adding something to my system that I did not personally mix

[birdman204]

Bio Sea, Go Buy it, and mix your own salt. use the hydrometer link to get a good one on sale.

Originally posted by nalbar

i just disagree with telling a beginner who is worried about snail deaths to start dosing is wise. what he needs is patience until his tank stabilizes.

 

personally i hope to never use either kalk or a buffer in my tank(s). but that is easy for me to say because i like the softies better than the 'harder' stuff. my calcium is considered low but everything is growing GREAT. like i said, to each his own.

 

Nal - that first statement is perfect. You like the softies, like all zoanthids and leather? Those are cool stuff, but remember Things like brains , frogspawns , and torchs all need CA to grow their skeletons. Buffering your water is, like JL said part of providing a proper environment. Check your PH in your top off water, Your test may not even go down that low. Your premixed SW, I have tested PH from 7.7 to 8, but never high enough to be considered proper PH. The tank will not stabilize, They are too small. Even in a 300 Gallon tank, you need to maintain PH thru the use of buffers , or the addition of kalk. In the end Nalbar, you are 99.99% correct, but I do believe that water params need to be altered just a bit to provide a proper environment. just about all the major forms of reefkeeping (jaubert , berlin , Monaco..... ) have some for of altering water chemistry either via natural methods or scientific additions.

The only things I do to my tank.. water change, macro harvest, and half strength kalk top-off. I feed it MMMAAAAYYYBE once a week. It would be more accurate to say 4 times a month.

 

Whitten. Kalk was most likely added too fast which is what may have crashed your tank.

[Tempest]

Forgive me if I missed this in a previous response (I just skimmed the posts), but how about checking the alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? These can all have an influence on pH even if indirectly. Also, is there enough surface agitation to facilitate oxygen exchange? If not this will contribute to a low pH. Finally, since bioload may be a contributing factor (decomposition of waste and food resulting acidic products that lower pH) perhaps adding a chunk of fully cured live rock would help. Just my 2 cents.

[birdman204]

Tempest. I think the discussion is more along the lines of nalbar does not believe these things need to be altered at the beginning of a tank. Hence the buffering issue. I am sure that those are related to his problem but Nalbar is saying not to do anything about it, when some believe it must be corrected. Do you have .02 more cents along that line I think that would help a little more. But in the end I think even he is on the same page. let the tank mature for a LOOOOOOONG time. of which I can wholeheartedly agree.

[nalbar]

bird, generally i have avoided any of the threads where buffers and calcium and 'dosing' are discussed because i am aware that i am out of the mainstream and my thoughts (opinions? conclusions? misinformation? stupidity?) might be wrong and could lead someone to disaster. i stepped into this thread because lunar said in his first post he had snail deaths and an algae bloom. with a fish. and with a ph of 7.7. at week 5! at week five he could check his PH the next day and get an 8.0. he was advised to start dosing. i disagreed. i thought that more than likely, in HIS case, he had a phosphate problem. thus my advice, right or wrong. inconsistant dosing MIGHT prevent stability from developing in his tank, rather than helping. assuming, of course, that 'stability' is even possibe.

 

phosphate is the greater danger here IMO.

 

 

nalbar

[Whitten]

I agree with the statement above. My little tank and even my roomies 10 gallon both had wildly fluxuating PHs for a while. It makes perfect sense though if you your really analyze it like my college professor did. I had been talking to my professor about how I need to run home and check on something in my tank when he light up and told me that he was researcher that studied almost stricly reef systems. I found out alot of interesting stuff that I had never know before. Basicly in a nutshell, my prof told me that in tanks any smaller than 30 gallons they can be subject to quick swings in PH due to their small quantities of water, and get this....the water movement. What he told me was that water movement has to do a great deal on how your PH is affected. It in conjunction with your temp, and what ever is in your live rock can cause very different PH readings not only from day to day but hourly. Here is the thing that I will follow form here on out his suggestions for a tank to succeed is to keep out as many un neccesary chemicals as possible. That is most definatly directed towards the buffers and or any type of unnatural supplimentation to accieve unaturally perfect conditions. The reason for this is that if one starts doing this early on in the tanks setup, then it will cause a continous chain of cycles...and other events to occur. This explained to me about how people are constantly fighting with something on their tank whether it be PH, algae bloom, or strange behavior from livestock. His exact words were " if you can, try and just let it be, as it will find a way to reach an equilibrium from constants like Water change, PH and bioloads. Basicly a healthy system should be able to adapt to the norms of water changes and inhabitants that dwell withing it's living area, adding buffers constantly evolves a battle that is like a see saw effect."

[JLTRUK]

as much as I value the opinions of your professor that is researching reefs, I have to point out that a buffer does not create a see-saw effect that you have described. The purpose of the buffer is to maintain and adjust your ph to the level is intended to be at normally. Once this level is maintained and proper husbandry ensue, the use of your ph buffer may no longer be necessary.

 

as nice as it may sound to let the tank take its course and allow it take 4-5 months to mature reality must set in. People are excited to stock the tank, its hard enough for people to allow it ample time to cycle, so now you are going to add 3-4 more months of waiting and watching an empty tank. For what reason??? Just so you could have done it "natrually". Am I the only one that sees the non sequitur here? How natural are captive systems...its "captive" meaning we have already intervened in the "natural" course it was going to take by capturing it.

 

For those that wish to view nature in all its wonder I encourage you to take diving lessons and enjoy the wonders of the ocean. For those that want to keep a successful reef tank, buffer is not the anti-christ.

[Whitten]

I dont' think that buffer is the anti christ, infact I am going to try using some regardless of what advice from him I got. The differecnce though in my tank and this guys though is that mine has been set up for nearly 4 months. Don't worry I am not against using anything if it helps, but for some one that is new to doing this stuff and excited just like you said it is best to set it up and let it run for a while so that the tank has time to kinda even it's self out and get aclimated before you start messing with the PH or anything else for that matter. After that little amount of time hopefully the New reefer syndrome will have subsided slightly. Don't worry my man I am in your corner....I am everyones corner, because it is through the trial and error that we are able to find what works best. Your advise has been duely noted, and taken into serious consideration by me.

[JLTRUK]

as long as you try stuff out and see what works there is nothing wrong. i didnt just pull this info from a book or out of my a$$ and your professor did not either. i have maintained tanks for over 7 years now and tried lots of things. many methods work for many different people and I would just like to be on record as saying that buffer is not bad to be advised for a newbie to add to his or her tank. i think that sometimes professionals may get to caught up on what is "right" and do not realize we are not running our tanks out of a lab. you mentioned your professor has noticed ph swings in hours passing. I certainly dont check my ph hourly...

 

basically my sentiment is that buffer is something any newbie can use. in most cases you can not even overdose buffer where it will make a situtation in the tank worsen. Most buffers that are of any quality will only bring your ph to 8.3 and stop. Kalkwasher is different...if you do not use this properly and overdose you can realy f some stuff up.

 

read the labels people...read the labels

[Empty]

My (freshly minted) $.02:

 

I am a newbie too. I have just read *a lot* and I have a lot of FW experience (which, in a lot of chemistry areas, does cross over, especially if you've ever kept Rift Lake cichlids). I have yet to lose a member of my cleanup crew and they've been in for over a month.

 

Lunar,

You need buffer if you are having pH swings or have a low hardness. I just read "Natural Reef Aquariums" (Tullock). This book is highly praised by all the LFS guys I trust (IE the two dedicated reef stores I go to in Seattle) Everything in that book matches up with the model of the standard beginning nano here, and goes in depth as to what to expect and what is going on inside your tank. In the meantime, there's a FW phrase that I don't see in the SW hobby, but I think it has a place in nanos: When in doubt, do a water change.

 

Above all, watch your tank. There is no test kit in the world as good as the attention of an observant aquarist. Keep records of when you did X, or what the params were on a certain date, etc. Being able to go back to this if things go badly is invaluable. Watch your organisms- learn their patterns and behaviors, and if you see something abnormal give it some thought. A few clamped fins or a sluggish fish are frequently the first detectable sign of a problem.

 

Nalbar,

 

FO tanks might not need added buffers, but that is because crushed coral is filling the water with buffering capacity. Keep in mind, the salt you add is probably designed for *all* reef aquariums. The salt maker can't add much buffer to the salt mix, as it has to be OK in systems with a good pH and buffer already. On the other hand, you have a reef. Your rock and possibly your sand is coated with a biofilm that slows water<->substrate interface a bit. You have lights that are on a lot, and corraline algaes starting to eat their calcium. Likewise, you probably have fan worms and tube worms off all sorts, also sucking up calcium. You have lots of decay, which is fueling your cycle. Your cycle is made by aerobic bacteria, which means they are breathing in air and out CO2. CO2 is interfacing with the water and creating carbonic acid, which is eating up at least some of your buffer. Algae is eating some of the CO2, some of it is escaping through the air<->water interface. All of these things are tugging and pulling at your chemistry trying to find some way to coexist. At this point, without your help, that area will likely be at a low pH. pH swings are not something that happens in the wild- neither are salinity swings or temperature swings for the most part. The ocean and nature keep a relatively constant and pleasant atmosphere, as far as water chemistry and temperature goes. It is our job to emulate that. pH swings can and will harm your fish and inverts as surely as temp swings or ammonia spikes. Worse, they can hurt or stun your bacterial colonies, which are the most important inhabitants of your tank at this phase. Nothing else will settle down until they do. At this point it should be obvious that you need to do something, lest you risk a crash. That something for many people is kalkwasser. Yes, you may not need a lot of calcium, but kalkwasser adds hydroxyl ions into the water which eat acids that would drive your pH down. Natural Reef Aquariums recommends a pH of 8.2-8.4, and recognizes the value of buffers and kalkwasser. The Myths page even mentions it- buffering and dealing with pH etc is "dial(ing) in the water quality"

 

Whitten, if your professor is not named Shimek, Sprung, Delbeek or Tullock, I think I would take his viewpoint with a grain of salt. If you can't take it with a grain of salt, ponder the phrases "if you can" and "constants like [...] PH ". Also, I would bet your kalk problems were too fast of dosing. I have been dosing 1/4 strength kalk with 1/2 my makeup water(IE I use it once or twice a week, top off every day or two) all month in a 5g and keeping parameters around natural seawater. If you add the stuff fast, though, pH can do some nasty stuff. Kalk comes out to be like pH 12 at full strength. That may not seem like a big difference but it basically means you are adding something that is 10,000x as alkaline as a tank at pH 8.0 to a very small body of water. More than one drop every several seconds of saturated kalk is just asking for trouble, especially if you are dripping it into the aquarium directly instead of into a sump or HOB where it can mix before hitting your bacteria and livestock. As I said, I have been adding it for a month, my tank is great with healthy livestock (cleanup crew, a mat of gsps, some very small hardy misc frags and a tiny neon goby) with no ill effects. I keep my calc, pH, and alk in seawater-range. I have a lot of corraline growtch, and my tube worms look fantastic. I don't "dose" anything either. I do frequent small water changes, I add topoff as needed, and a little calc. As time goes on, I will add a little iodide for the inverts, but I doubt I will need to dose anything other than that. There is a big difference between dosing strontium or something and keeping the basic water chemistry within seawater parameters.

 

Anyway, that's my $.02, give or take a ten spot.

 

~Empty

[Whitten]

Empty,JLTRUK I am really glad that we got on this subject, because I love to learn. It is great to hear al sides of an issue, and get some great opinions. Your right, I do take my professors with a grain of salt,as they are human and can't possibly know everything there is to know. And Empty you couldn't have been more on the spot about the Kalk. I guess my thing was that I was a little gun shy from using anything after my tank crashed. I am going to get some buffer this weekend and give it a try. Tell me before I buy how much would a chap like myself need for a 2.5 gallon, and what brand?

[birdman204]

I have used the kents superbuffer with limited results. I now use kalkwasser at half strength in my auto top off. Tank has been stable since week 2 of using it. My ca levels climed ever so slightly over a 2 mo period, so adjust amount of kalk accordingly. Simple. Easy. Very effective.

[Empty]

I have yet to need any buffer aside from my kalk topoffs. I imagine this is due to my frequent waterchanges and good surface movement (CO2 will escape water very easily with good surface movement).

 

~Empty

[surfingelite]

I really dont think that lunar needed all this info. but the more the merrier

[Empty]

Surfing,

 

Probably not, but lunar did probably learn two vastly important things: the first is that she should get the pH up, the second is that reefkeeping is fraught with misinformation and arguments.

 

~Empty

[nalbar]

Originally posted by surfingelite

I really dont think that lunar needed all this info. but the more the merrier

 

LOL! the wisest statement in the whole thread!

 

only goes to show you, you NEVER know where a post will lead!

 

btw;

 

ca low (350)

ph ok (8.3)

alk ? (wtf knows)

 

 

rics are splitting, shrooms are doubling, zoos are multiplying, and purple coraline is spreading like some sort of strange fungus all over the rock.

 

i guess what they say is true... even a blind pig can find an acorn sometimes.

 

 

nalbar

[onthefly]

Ok,

 

My $.02......Lunar, do you live in a cold climate? Do you keep your house buttoned down tightly in the winter?

 

There has been a lot of talk lately (NR and RC) about household CO2 depressing pH levels in tanks......seems plausible since it is winter. My Tank is FULLY stocked and I have to add buffer up the WAZZOO to keep my pH at 8....that being said I was running a silica sand (ZERO buffering capacity) until last night. But, when I did the little cup on the patio of an hour test...it tested 8.4.

 

I'm now thinking of a way to plumb in fresh air to the tank.

 

Just a possible idea, other than newbie syndrome, why thing might be the way they are.

[Empty]

Quoth Nalbar:

ca low (350)

ph ok (8.3)

alk ? (wtf knows)

Why is there a WTF here? I don't understand- do you not test it, or what?

 

~Empty

[nalbar]

sorry i wrote that.

 

in this case the 'w' stands for 'who'.

 

and no, i do not test for alk. i use natural sea water, and change water like a maniac.

 

nalbar