The First Ever, Un-Authorized, Not Approved, Live Sand Exchange

[nanoreef-R]

hey shut up

 

Make me

[Nemo Niblets]

Make me

stop it!!!

[Bill Nye]

I think this is a very cool concept. I'd contribute if I wasn't across the country. This is a very good idea for starting new tanks IMO, you'd be able to start with real Live Sand versus the stuff you buy in bags thats dead already.

 

 

My LFS sells real live sand for 3 dollars a lb...that bagged stuff is rough. Cool for people who dont have a LFS that carries 4 real live sand though I guess...and live in Arizona.

[erickj_az]

Nassarius Snails.

 

 

Already planned on adding a bunch!

 

E

 

I think this is a very cool concept. I'd contribute if I wasn't across the country. This is a very good idea for starting new tanks IMO, you'd be able to start with real Live Sand versus the stuff you buy in bags thats dead already.

 

 

UPS and FedEX. In fact, with UPS you can set up a call tag and I'll box it up in exactly what it came in a month later and return it to you.

 

And if you just wanted to contribute, expecting nothing in return you are welcome to mail some live sand out here. You never know someday it may just come back around.

 

E

[johnmaloney]

sand exchange is a pretty cool idea, but reefmonkey.com had one like 3 years ago. not taking away from this one, just saying.

[xgame2k]

Props to you. I'm in Gilbert, when is this project being started?

[Degener8]

I like the idea . I live in Oklahoma so I wont be participating. If your going to give everyone back quality sand in return of their contribution I would make sure to stir the sand not only with snails but also with a stick. I would just run a stick spatula what ever through a secion of the sand daily. like do 1/4 of the tank a day .. this will keep the sand from becoming annoxic ( i donno if i spelled that right)

 

How large of a tank are you using for this project

I would discourage anything deeper than a 2 in sand bed unless you were religious about stirring.

 

just my 2 cents

 

 

Oh if there is any local reef clubs this would be a great idea for a local club to do.

[JohnOTS]

The only problem I could see happening is when people come back to collect the sand the people getting the top couple inches will get some nice sand filled with various organisms, and the people getting the bottom couple inches will just get cups of toxic sand from the nasty buildup in the bottom of the sand bed.

 

I really dont think the snails will solve this problem. They will only stir up the top of this - I assume to be a really deep sand bed. Because of the way sand filters our tanks only the top sand would be benificial. It is even possible that in the month or so when people come back to get their sand they could cause a mini crash in the system by stirring up the sand and releasing all the toxic elements in the lower sand.

 

I really dont know how you could solve this problem. Maybe daily stirring the sand releasing all the nitrates constantly...

 

I like the idea . I live in Oklahoma so I wont be participating. If your going to give everyone back quality sand in return of their contribution I would make sure to stir the sand not only with snails but also with a stick. I would just run a stick spatula what ever through a secion of the sand daily. like do 1/4 of the tank a day .. this will keep the sand from becoming annoxic ( i donno if i spelled that right)

 

How large of a tank are you using for this project

I would discourage anything deeper than a 2 in sand bed unless you were religious about stirring.

 

just my 2 cents

 

 

Oh if there is any local reef clubs this would be a great idea for a local club to do.

 

Ha you beat me to it!

[danthenewreefman]

that would be some great bio-diversity...

[johnmaloney]

eh...who cares if the see sand is a little dirty...dirty sand has more life...

[Degener8]

dirty is fine .. filled with toxic gas or gas producing materials is not.. LOL

 

I think the fear everyone is imagining is like having an established DSB and disturbing it with a shovel in a small tank..

 

thing is it takes time for it to all get sorted out like that .. 30 days is on the edge of being able to go annoxic. It takes more like a few months to build anything that would be a severe circumstance.

 

(i'm sure if he build a 8 in DSB it would happen faster but I dont think that is what was in mind when he started the thread.

[erickj_az]

Props to you. I'm in Gilbert, when is this project being started?

 

 

I hope to have the tank up and filled tomorrow or Friday and the open house will be all day on Saturday from 10 am to 10 pm. I'm not sure what kind of response I'm going to get yet, so I've got a 20 gallon set aside for the project now and If more sand shows up I'll get a bigger tank set up on Sunday. I've got a spare 70 and 125 if I need it and there are lots of tanks available of any size all the time.

 

E

[bitts]

as a first step, get a scoop from all the lfs. (well the good ones) this will help with a good base to start the project, plus they wont be looking for any back.

 

this is a fantastic idea, even if risky. if one is that conserned they could qt the sand. just like your suposed to do to every that goes in the tank.

[redhawk45]

One...I wouldn't want to do this, so you cannot exclude me from something I wouldn't do in the first place.

 

Two. You are NOT getting a clue. Biodiversity, you say? Sure, you'll get critters alright in the sand...critters that could harm someone else's biodiverse eco-system. It has nothing to do with water quality, but with what bad, evil critters that could reside in such sand. Tolerant you say? No, it will not grow more tolerant, it will bring chaos to every single aquarium out there. There are strict rules to reefing, and more so when it comes to Nano-Reefing. People have to be careful with what they bring into their OWN aquarium, even if it is coral from someone else's tank (therefore the acclimation time). When you talk of sand, or more importantly Live Sand, that's a whole other ballgame. I started my tank out with ONE type of sand, not sand from different sources, for what you are trying to create is an eco-system within glass walls.

 

Here...maybe I can give you another clue as to what I'm talking about. You have a group of deer inhabiting a patch of forest. You have the usual predators: coyotes, ravens when the deer dies, and possibly an occasional cougar or bobcat (depending where you live, you may even have wolves). Say someone unwittingly brings in a tiger, and it gets loose in this patch of forest. The tiger will kill all the wildlife it can eat.

 

Second scenerio: Perhaps you have this same patch of forest, and deer, and usual predators...then you introduce the hated Wild Boar. It isn't a predator, but eats the same foods as the deer. Predators are afraid of them because of how dangerous they are (because boars can gore anything). Now, say, if this patch of forest is bordered by deep gullies, a street, or cliffs. The boars eat all the deer's food, pushing the deer to extremes to where they can't eat, and they can't escape...they simply die. When the deer die, predators die.

 

I'm posting this because I'm in this hobbie as for my love of the world and each and every eco-system out there. I don't 'mix' eco-systems, for something will go terrible wrong if you introduce something completely foreign to my tank such as other people's sand. What one person's beneficial bacteria in their aquarium could very well be harmful to another....that is why when we start off with our aquariums, we must get the live sand and live rock first, then let it cycle for nearly a month before we can start adding fish and corals and inverts to it.

 

YOU may do whatever you wish with your own tank...but don't you dare try to offer something such as sand from your tank to other people UNLESS they are starting a new tank unto themselves. Unfortunately, there are a certain few not-so-bright people out there who probably would do a stupid thing as to add that sand to their already established tank...but I'm fully happy that there are plenty out here that have their head screwed on right to see something wrong.

 

 

First, This will be a completely different tank which is dedicated to this project.

Second, I am a complete amateur.

Third, Each of our echo systems are unique and the more diverse our bio systems become the more tolerant they will become. The idea is that by having more microorganisms in our aquariums we are protecting our environments with greater diversity. You get back the same amount you put in. What's your risk? A handful of sand? Really? You need help.

Fourth, you violated the only rule I set out. You contributed only negativity to the project and therefore you are excluded.

 

E

[erickj_az]

One...I wouldn't want to do this, so you cannot exclude me from something I wouldn't do in the first place.

 

Two. You are NOT getting a clue. Biodiversity, you say? Sure, you'll get critters alright in the sand...critters that could harm someone else's biodiverse eco-system. It has nothing to do with water quality, but with what bad, evil critters that could reside in such sand. Tolerant you say? No, it will not grow more tolerant, it will bring chaos to every single aquarium out there. There are strict rules to reefing, and more so when it comes to Nano-Reefing. People have to be careful with what they bring into their OWN aquarium, even if it is coral from someone else's tank (therefore the acclimation time). When you talk of sand, or more importantly Live Sand, that's a whole other ballgame. I started my tank out with ONE type of sand, not sand from different sources, for what you are trying to create is an eco-system within glass walls.

 

Here...maybe I can give you another clue as to what I'm talking about. You have a group of deer inhabiting a patch of forest. You have the usual predators: coyotes, ravens when the deer dies, and possibly an occasional cougar or bobcat (depending where you live, you may even have wolves). Say someone unwittingly brings in a tiger, and it gets loose in this patch of forest. The tiger will kill all the wildlife it can eat.

 

Second scenerio: Perhaps you have this same patch of forest, and deer, and usual predators...then you introduce the hated Wild Boar. It isn't a predator, but eats the same foods as the deer. Predators are afraid of them because of how dangerous they are (because boars can gore anything). Now, say, if this patch of forest is bordered by deep gullies, a street, or cliffs. The boars eat all the deer's food, pushing the deer to extremes to where they can't eat, and they can't escape...they simply die. When the deer die, predators die.

 

I'm posting this because I'm in this hobbie as for my love of the world and each and every eco-system out there. I don't 'mix' eco-systems, for something will go terrible wrong if you introduce something completely foreign to my tank such as other people's sand. What one person's beneficial bacteria in their aquarium could very well be harmful to another....that is why when we start off with our aquariums, we must get the live sand and live rock first, then let it cycle for nearly a month before we can start adding fish and corals and inverts to it.

 

YOU may do whatever you wish with your own tank...but don't you dare try to offer something such as sand from your tank to other people UNLESS they are starting a new tank unto themselves. Unfortunately, there are a certain few not-so-bright people out there who probably would do a stupid thing as to add that sand to their already established tank...but I'm fully happy that there are plenty out here that have their head screwed on right to see something wrong.

 

 

I will dare to offer what ever I wish to whom ever I wish.

 

I'm sure that anyone can see that your example of releasing a tiger in your tank would not be beneficial. Even if it was a small tiger. See if the tiger were too small then it would drown and PETA would be all over you. If the tiger were too big it would escape and probably eat you, which may not be such a bad thing, except I'd bet you'd give the tiger a bad case of indigestion with all that negativity floating around inside you. In any case your tank would be in ruins and I'll bet the nitrates would be through the roof.

 

I'm glad You've decided not to send any sand to our sand box/tank.

 

E

[spanko]

Sounds cool. I wonder how much diversity there really is in the aquarium community though. Seems to me the flora and fauna in the sand bed would actually level out is diversity after a while in everyones tanks.

I"m thinking that those things that can and do live out in the open seas where food, temperature, flow etc etc etc have met with their evolution over time and do not exist in our tank, do not exist probably in everyone's tanks. Could it be that in our glass boxes sand bed flora and fauna have "evolved" to the point that we have mostly the same things? The critters that can, have survived in our ecosystem and those that cannot have not?

 

Just thinking..........

[redhawk45]

No, I'm with a couple others on here saying it's a bad thing. Mock me if you will, but how will you live with yourself when this time comes that you 'give the sand back' to these others and their tanks crash because of you? If you were an enthusiastic reefer like most of us, who CARES about biology and our eco-system, you wouldn't be offering any sand back. Just as any other experienced (way experienced) reefer, like Dr. Kent, for example. Since you're an ameture, you would absolutely know nothing about bad bacteria, and other tiny pests that inhabit the sand in a reef. No one with a logical, and ethical, mind would add any of your sand back into their established tank for fear of crashing their reef system. And who would they blame for that? You! True, half of the blame is on them for they were the ones who decided to do that in the first place.

 

I already told you that it'd be fine for beginner reefers, brand new into the hobbie, who are ready to start off their FIRST tank. There's enough cycle time to kill off the tiny pests that can and will deteriorate an established reef. That's why most beginners have to wait a month before putting anymore aquaria into the tank.

 

If you wanna know how delicate our Nano-Reefs are, I know it first hand. I had bought my first coral from Dr. Foster and Smith, and about a week after putting it in my tank grew a green algae bloom, which I had to take under control immediately. Then later, I buy two coral from Pet Solutions, and though it doesn't matter that they came to me dead, what came hidden upon them was brown algae, which I had battled for over a month. I got rid of most of the green and brown algae, but I still have a bit left due to what I introduce into my nano-reef.

 

You know, instead of shouting your head off, mocking those like me, trying to say you know it all, you should be listening to those of us who have experience already to know what they're talking about. I'm pretty much telling you: Go ahead, but if I was you I'd be saving a lot of grief for the established tanks out there and only offer that sand for those people just setting up their tank. I don't need to see in another thread, hearing about how you crashed someone's tank and they give you a bad rap. Get it? Getting a bad rap is the least of what may happen...the worst is if that person went on ahead to sue you for the damage it would have caused - though, how they would sue, is beyond me since they willingly plopped that handful of sand into their established tank...you didn't. I'm pretty much helping you out as we speak. If you don't want to listen to experienced people out here, fine...but just so you know, later down the road, when someone posts a bad thread about you, I'm going to have a HUGE "I told you so" message in your inbox.

 

I will dare to offer what ever I wish to whom ever I wish.

 

I'm sure that anyone can see that your example of releasing a tiger in your tank would not be beneficial. Even if it was a small tiger. See if the tiger were too small then it would drown and PETA would be all over you. If the tiger were too big it would escape and probably eat you, which may not be such a bad thing, except I'd bet you'd give the tiger a bad case of indigestion with all that negativity floating around inside you. In any case your tank would be in ruins and I'll bet the nitrates would be through the roof.

 

I'm glad You've decided not to send any sand to our sand box/tank.

 

E

[redhawk45]

You're halfway on the right track. I've studied enough about eco-systems to know that when you isolate an eco-system, that it evolves into a whole new one. Pretty much what each of us does is create a new eco-system with its own biodiversity in it. If a person who starts a reef tank up and gets live sand that was dug from, say, Fiji, his tank will have certain 'critters' adapt in the tank, while others die.

 

I know my tank can and will survive having the salinity of 1.024 and a day temp of 83 to 84 degrees. Certain life exists only in my tank due to those specifications I created, and if you do a tad research, my tank is more like the real deal from the Indo-Pacific than others who have kept their tanks at 77 to 78 degrees. Whether it would be more life or less, I don't know. But, I am agreeing with you that we would have certain similar flora and fauna...but I don't know which similar ones. I do know that if I put live sand from, say, the Carribbean in my tank, you can fully know that either I have to adjust the temp for cooler and the salinity higher, or certain unwanted flora and fauna might inhabit my tank and possibly crash it. Humans might be not very picky to having other species (whether other human 'races' or animals) around, but I do know that flora and fauna doesn't like the introduction of other flora and fauna that isn't native and that introduced species will harm what is already there. With our tanks, that could very well be the case (the reason for a green algae bloom when I introduced a coral into my tank that visibly had none, but microscopically did).

 

Sounds cool. I wonder how much diversity there really is in the aquarium community though. Seems to me the flora and fauna in the sand bed would actually level out is diversity after a while in everyones tanks.

I"m thinking that those things that can and do live out in the open seas where food, temperature, flow etc etc etc have met with their evolution over time and do not exist in our tank, do not exist probably in everyone's tanks. Could it be that in our glass boxes sand bed flora and fauna have "evolved" to the point that we have mostly the same things? The critters that can, have survived in our ecosystem and those that cannot have not?

 

Just thinking..........

[Tinytank]

I will dare to offer what ever I wish to whom ever I wish.

 

I'm sure that anyone can see that your example of releasing a tiger in your tank would not be beneficial. Even if it was a small tiger. See if the tiger were too small then it would drown and PETA would be all over you. If the tiger were too big it would escape and probably eat you, which may not be such a bad thing, except I'd bet you'd give the tiger a bad case of indigestion with all that negativity floating around inside you. In any case your tank would be in ruins and I'll bet the nitrates would be through the roof.

 

I'm glad You've decided not to send any sand to our sand box/tank.

 

E

 

 

^^^^

 

 

And tell him to take his analogous novella posts posts elsewhere, I can't read six billion words per post.

[redhawk45]

If you're referring to me...I got a question for you and anyone else who wants to challenge my reasoning and the reason WHY we have this hobby. Why are you on this site? Why is anyone within this hobby? Why spend thousands of dollars...for what? I know it surely ain't to have a pet you can't walk on a leash or to be affectionate to you.

 

So, I ask this...not a "six billion words per post" post. If you don't like to read, then you don't need to read my posts. If you have a bone to pick with me personally, take it and send me a message. Otherwise, this is a free thread and I may post in it anything that is within the rules of this site. But, if you are gonna reply to my questions, think hard before you post...you don't want to show a bad side to this great hobby of ours.

 

^^^^

 

 

And tell him to take his analogous novella posts posts elsewhere, I can't read six billion words per post.

[erickj_az]

No, I'm with a couple others on here saying it's a bad thing. Mock me if you will, but how will you live with yourself when this time comes that you 'give the sand back' to these others and their tanks crash because of you? If you were an enthusiastic reefer like most of us, who CARES about biology and our eco-system, you wouldn't be offering any sand back. Just as any other experienced (way experienced) reefer, like Dr. Kent, for example. Since you're an ameture, you would absolutely know nothing about bad bacteria, and other tiny pests that inhabit the sand in a reef. No one with a logical, and ethical, mind would add any of your sand back into their established tank for fear of crashing their reef system. And who would they blame for that? You! True, half of the blame is on them for they were the ones who decided to do that in the first place.

 

I already told you that it'd be fine for beginner reefers, brand new into the hobbie, who are ready to start off their FIRST tank. There's enough cycle time to kill off the tiny pests that can and will deteriorate an established reef. That's why most beginners have to wait a month before putting anymore aquaria into the tank.

 

If you wanna know how delicate our Nano-Reefs are, I know it first hand. I had bought my first coral from Dr. Foster and Smith, and about a week after putting it in my tank grew a green algae bloom, which I had to take under control immediately. Then later, I buy two coral from Pet Solutions, and though it doesn't matter that they came to me dead, what came hidden upon them was brown algae, which I had battled for over a month. I got rid of most of the green and brown algae, but I still have a bit left due to what I introduce into my nano-reef.

 

You know, instead of shouting your head off, mocking those like me, trying to say you know it all, you should be listening to those of us who have experience already to know what they're talking about. I'm pretty much telling you: Go ahead, but if I was you I'd be saving a lot of grief for the established tanks out there and only offer that sand for those people just setting up their tank. I don't need to see in another thread, hearing about how you crashed someone's tank and they give you a bad rap. Get it? Getting a bad rap is the least of what may happen...the worst is if that person went on ahead to sue you for the damage it would have caused - though, how they would sue, is beyond me since they willingly plopped that handful of sand into their established tank...you didn't. I'm pretty much helping you out as we speak. If you don't want to listen to experienced people out here, fine...but just so you know, later down the road, when someone posts a bad thread about you, I'm going to have a HUGE "I told you so" message in your inbox.

 

I'm so sorry you've had so many battles with "bad algae" in your tank.

 

I, personally, love algae of all kinds. I work hard to do my water changes and feed the right amount and make sure the nutrient levels are constant. I've got some brown algae and some green and red, orange even blue and purple. Some micro and some macro. It all looks very natural and beautiful to me. I'll admit when it starts growing on the front glass I scrap it off so I can see inside, but for the most part I let the algae go about it's business.

 

And I go about mine. I scurry about collecting things from different environments for my tanks. Everywhere I go I try to collect a handful of sand or a small piece of live rock rubble. I love the diversity. Since my tank cycled I've never had an algae bloom. Nothing has ever died in my tank. Every hermit crab, snail and bristle worm is accounted for. Guess I just haven't waited long enough for the catastrophe to strike.

 

BTW - If you think this is shouting I say again: GET SOME HELP! (Was that loud enough for you) I assure you: All I'm really starting to know is what I don't know and even that I really don't know.

 

Not to stray too far off topic: "The Community Sand Box Project" is open. Bring your live sand to join the community live sand box. For 30 days we'll be combining our diverse microbiology into one big pot and everyone get back a better more diverse sample.

 

The object is to strengthen the microbiology in our tanks through a community effort to combine the unique characteristics of each of out echo systems.

 

If your a naysayer or have negative thoughts on this idea, start your own thread. If you've got constructive ways to help make this project successful lets have an intelligent, positive discussion about the plan. There's no reason for lions and tigers and bears (O My) in our tanks.

 

E

[redhawk45]

Ya know...it's people like you who gives a bad name to this hobby. Fine...go ahead and kill off everyone else's established tank. Like I told you, when the bad reports start coming in...you can bet on a message from me telling you "I told you so". I got in this hobby to preserve, just like this hobby suppose to be, not to exploit and to destroy like you. Go about your business...I'll be waiting in the shadows.

 

I'm so sorry you've had so many battles with "bad algae" in your tank.

 

I, personally, love algae of all kinds. I work hard to do my water changes and feed the right amount and make sure the nutrient levels are constant. I've got some brown algae and some green and red, orange even blue and purple. Some micro and some macro. It all looks very natural and beautiful to me. I'll admit when it starts growing on the front glass I scrap it off so I can see inside, but for the most part I let the algae go about it's business.

 

And I go about mine. I scurry about collecting things from different environments for my tanks. Everywhere I go I try to collect a handful of sand or a small piece of live rock rubble. I love the diversity. Since my tank cycled I've never had an algae bloom. Nothing has ever died in my tank. Every hermit crab, snail and bristle worm is accounted for. Guess I just haven't waited long enough for the catastrophe to strike.

 

BTW - If you think this is shouting I say again: GET SOME HELP! (Was that loud enough for you) I assure you: All I'm really starting to know is what I don't know and even that I really don't know.

 

Not to stray too far off topic: "The Community Sand Box Project" is open. Bring your live sand to join the community live sand box. For 30 days we'll be combining our diverse microbiology into one big pot and everyone get back a better more diverse sample.

 

The object is to strengthen the microbiology in our tanks through a community effort to combine the unique characteristics of each of out echo systems.

 

If your a naysayer or have negative thoughts on this idea, start your own thread. If you've got constructive ways to help make this project successful lets have an intelligent, positive discussion about the plan. There's no reason for lions and tigers and bears (O My) in our tanks.

 

E

[nanoreef-R]

Give It a rest guys.

[RedMan25xl]

haters.

[erickj_az]

If you're referring to me...I got a question for you and anyone else who wants to challenge my reasoning and the reason WHY we have this hobby. Why are you on this site? Why is anyone within this hobby? Why spend thousands of dollars...for what? I know it surely ain't to have a pet you can't walk on a leash or to be affectionate to you.

 

So, I ask this...not a "six billion words per post" post. If you don't like to read, then you don't need to read my posts. If you have a bone to pick with me personally, take it and send me a message. Otherwise, this is a free thread and I may post in it anything that is within the rules of this site. But, if you are gonna reply to my questions, think hard before you post...you don't want to show a bad side to this great hobby of ours.

 

I'm in this hobby because I want fame and fortune. I want to single-handedly re populate the dying reefs of the world after all the SUV crazed, gas guzzling, drill baby drill, republicans, no offense, get finished destroying our beautiful Earth. (And I want to screw people out of their hard worked/earned sand one handful at a time as someone on this thread accused me of earlier, speaking of showing the bad side of the hobby.)

 

Start your own thread. It could be about how evil I am. Or are you afraid it will be a party of one?

 

E