the cycle

[rllemmon]

Ok so ill try to make this short and to the point, ...I have a 20 gal with LR and Seachem substrate , with live natural salt water from my reef shop. the ammonia is an atrocious 4.0 . So moving forward, the nitrite actually shot up for 4 days, ammonia never budged and today the nitrite is back to 0. There nothing in the tank except hitch hikers on the rocks, peanut worms and some other worms that I cant identify. Im at the point where im ready to empty the tank and start over .... I have 2 power heads with bio media from the reef tank at the lfs, I dont think its under filtered , and def not over fed since im not feeding anything. I have done 3 water changes , all with salt water from my lfs, I test it before I add it to my tank and its always perfect, yet even immidiatly after the change, the ammonia doesnt budge! hoping someone here can shed some light.......

[OClownsandNanos]

What test kit are you using for ammonia? Have you had the LFS test your water for ammonia also to compare results?

[Oceanus]

+1 on checkin the test kit. Also I'd ditch any biomedia in the tanks;it causes a heck of a lot of nitrates. So, the lr should handle all biological filtration means.

[Oceanus]

Unfamiliar with the pads, but if they are just mech, you should be good to go. Just clean them periodically.

[OClownsandNanos]

Does you tank stink? Or any particular rocks stink? Because for ammonia to be that high for a month, you'd have to have something continuously rotting . . . otherwise, if your tank has a fresh ocean smell it's really hard to believe you've got ammo of 8 and it hasn't budged for an entire month. I'm not saying I doubt your veracity, I'm saying something's messing with the kit results.

[Oceanus]

Pura pads are chemical ....they were recomended to me by a very experienced reefer, but also act as mech, they do work well but are very expensive. Still with all of this I am no closer to being able to keep anything alive in this death trap, Im very seriously considering going and getting new water and filter , and just starting over, there isnt anyway the rock could be contributing to the problem is there? It doesnt have any odor and even has some coraline on it. Im so stumped! ( its Fiji Totoka )

Then the ppads should be fine. Did the lr have alot of life? was it cured? Because lots o' die off can crank up ammonia.

[OClownsandNanos]

Pura pads are chemical ....they were recomended to me by a very experienced reefer, but also act as mech, they do work well but are very expensive. Still with all of this I am no closer to being able to keep anything alive in this death trap, Im very seriously considering going and getting new water and filter , and just starting over, there isnt anyway the rock could be contributing to the problem is there? It doesnt have any odor and even has some coraline on it. Im so stumped! ( its Fiji Totoka )

 

I'm wondering if those pads are messing with your ammonia readings . . .

[Oceanus]

Nooooooooooooooooo! Ammo lock doesn't remove ammonia, it just halts the cycle! If I remember correctly, it turns ammonia into ammonium.

[OClownsandNanos]

Believe me , Im with you...this makes no sense.....the rock really has no smell....and I see white tube shaped animals peeking out of them.....kinda creepy actually. I use the api kit ...if you are familiar with them , the highest reading they have is 8.0 which is a dark green....I refer to my results as "death green" It was lower for the firswt week and gradualy went higher, its been the last 2 weeks that Ive gotten the highest result

 

I dont know if it matters but , when I still had my clowns in the tank , I did use ammo lock , to keep the free ammonia down for the fish, once they went back to the shop I stopped using it. I dont think it really matters though because the API test reads total ammonia, not just free...where as my ammonia alert that hangs in the tank only reads the free ammonia ....and it too has risen to the highest result now that I no longer used the ammo lock

 

Those are the only ammonia kits I've used, so yes, I'm familiar with them. So far you've used biospira, ammo lock, and puri pad. You've put a lot of chemicals in there. Given your rock does not stink, nor does your tank, and your nitrite levels have increased and tapered off, my guess is that you are getting false ammonia readings. Have you tried putting one snail in your tank and seeing how it does? Could you possibly discontinue the puri pad right now and test after a week or so to see if there are any changes?

[Oceanus]

Those are the only ammonia kits I've used, so yes, I'm familiar with them. So far you've used biospira, ammo lock, and puri pad. You've put a lot of chemicals in there. Given your rock does not stink, nor does your tank, and your nitrite levels have increased and tapered off, my guess is that you are getting false ammonia readings. Have you tried putting one snail in your tank and seeing how it does? Could you possibly discontinue the puri pad right now and test after a week or so to see if there are any changes?

+1, try a snail. maybe a hermit, cause imo, it's easier to see stress in them.

[rllemmon]

Those are the only ammonia kits I've used, so yes, I'm familiar with them. So far you've used biospira, ammo lock, and puri pad. You've put a lot of chemicals in there. Given your rock does not stink, nor does your tank, and your nitrite levels have increased and tapered off, my guess is that you are getting false ammonia readings. Have you tried putting one snail in your tank and seeing how it does? Could you possibly discontinue the puri pad right now and test after a week or so to see if there are any changes?

Im willing to try anything , The pura pad was to help bring the ammonia down, Im ashamed to say that I did have a few snails and they didnt last a week...they all died...

[OClownsandNanos]

Im willing to try anything , The pura pad was to help bring the ammonia down, Im ashamed to say that I did have a few snails and they didnt last a week...they all died...

 

When you did your water changes, how large were they? How long ago did you try the snails? Was that before or after your nitrites went down to 0?

[OClownsandNanos]

Do other reefers you know use the same LFS premixed water and have no problems? At this point, if it were me and I knew the LFS water was fine (because others have no issues) I'd get rid of anything chemical running in the tank right now - no pura pads, nothing. Then I would run well-rinsed high quality carbon for two days (only two days - take it out after that!) and then test again to see if your ammonia readings start making more sense. If they start to look better, run new carbon for another couple of days. However, if nothing changes after the first two days, I'd do an enormous water change. 100% if you are willing. Run no chemical filtration at all, not even carbon. Just let the cycle go for a week and test again.

 

That's what I'd try. Because I'm thinking you've got one of two things going on: Either all the chemicals you put in there are messing with your system and giving you false ammonia readings or you really do have ammonia that high. The carbon hopefully will absorb some of the chemicals. If that's not the issue, the water change should completely dilute the concentration of ammonia you have in the tank. I just really doubt you've got that kind of ammonia in the tank if you are not smelling it, but the water change should also get rid of any of those residual chemicals in the water too.

[nor_cal_nano]

Is it possible you prematurely added a gross amount of livestock that has since died and is currently decomposing in the tank? Like more than you've stated...?

[rllemmon]

Do other reefers you know use the same LFS premixed water and have no problems? At this point, if it were me and I knew the LFS water was fine (because others have no issues) I'd get rid of anything chemical running in the tank right now - no pura pads, nothing. Then I would run well-rinsed high quality carbon for two days (only two days - take it out after that!) and then test again to see if your ammonia readings start making more sense. If they start to look better, run new carbon for another couple of days. However, if nothing changes after the first two days, I'd do an enormous water change. 100% if you are willing. Run no chemical filtration at all, not even carbon. Just let the cycle go for a week and test again.

 

That's what I'd try. Because I'm thinking you've got one of two things going on: Either all the chemicals you put in there are messing with your system and giving you false ammonia readings or you really do have ammonia that high. The carbon hopefully will absorb some of the chemicals. If that's not the issue, the water change should completely dilute the concentration of ammonia you have in the tank. I just really doubt you've got that kind of ammonia in the tank if you are not smelling it, but the water change should also get rid of any of those residual chemicals in the water too.

Yes the water there is great, and the water I got when I first set it up was actually sealed 2 gallon containers of natural salt water, then I just kept going back having them refilled, I think what I will do is go and get the water now , and also pick up the carbon. do you have any suggestions for what is best? Also I already tossed the pura pads, the only other thing in there is the bio media....should I throw that as well? I am willing to do whatever I have to , I just want to be able to start enjoying it...all the money Ive spent and still no tank to speak of. Im not ready to quit just yet. So ill try the carbon , but also have the new water on stand by...

[Oceanus]

Im willing to try anything , The pura pad was to help bring the ammonia down, Im ashamed to say that I did have a few snails and they didnt last a week...they all died...

Bad... do NOT use 'ammonia reducing products'.

[OClownsandNanos]

Get rid of the biomedia, your live rock is all the biological filtration you need. Don't get a crazily expensive activated carbon, Marineland black diamond brand or something similar should suffice. Just don't get a really cheap activated carbon that will leach a lot of phosphates back into your tank.

 

(edited to add: Do you have any algae growing on your live rock?)

[rllemmon]

Get rid of the biomedia, your live rock is all the biological filtration you need. Don't get a crazily expensive activated carbon, Marineland black diamond brand or something similar should suffice. Just don't get a really cheap activated carbon that will leach a lot of phosphates back into your tank.

 

(edited to add: Do you have any algae growing on your live rock?)

Just some coraline ....thats it, no nasty glass or anything .

[rllemmon]

I just got home with the water and the carbon, decided to just go with a full water change so im stirring up all that I can frm the bottom of the tank while im at it.any other advice for now and the next few days ? Hoping im on my way to a competed cycle!

[violinist]

Full WC, no ammo-lok, let it rot. You'll be good to go.

[OClownsandNanos]

I just got home with the water and the carbon, decided to just go with a full water change so im stirring up all that I can frm the bottom of the tank while im at it.any other advice for now and the next few days ? Hoping im on my way to a competed cycle!

 

If you go with the full water change, hold off on the carbon for right now. In fact, if you haven't even opened it yet just sit on it in case you don't need it and you can return it back to the LFS for a refund. Just let your system run, no chemical media or biomedia in there at all except for your live rock. Maybe test it right after the water change if you have time, or wait a day. Then maybe test every other day and just give it a little time. Maybe post your results so we can see how it's going.

[rllemmon]

If you go with the full water change, hold off on the carbon for right now. In fact, if you haven't even opened it yet just sit on it in case you don't need it and you can return it back to the LFS for a refund. Just let your system run, no chemical media or biomedia in there at all except for your live rock. Maybe test it right after the water change if you have time, or wait a day. Then maybe test every other day and just give it a little time. Maybe post your results so we can see how it's going.

Okay I changed out every drop, the PH 8.4, ammonia 0....After I placed that perfect water in the tank with my substrate the ph is the same but ammo is at 1.0 ..which is from my sand bed being stirred up i presume.the 1.0 reading is the api kit...my Ammonia Alert by seachem that hangs in the tank however is only reading0.05 .......i think that one doesnt detect total ammonia...does anyone else use them? are they reliable? So I saved the carbon ..maybe ill need it down the road, but no more chemicals for me! lets hope this continues until ammonia is at 0 ...fingers crossed. Thanks to everyone who answered...alot more helpful on this forum than some of the others ive tried.

[OClownsandNanos]

Just a quick question - I wanna make sure I understand whether this a new tank or not and maybe I should've asked this earlier but didn't think of it but now am wondering - did you buy the tank from an existing reefer and it came with the LR and the shrimp and the clowns and the sand? Or did you just buy all those things together from your LFS at once, and they were all new?

[rllemmon]

Just a quick question - I wanna make sure I understand whether this a new tank or not and maybe I should've asked this earlier but didn't think of it but now am wondering - did you buy the tank from an existing reefer and it came with the LR and the shrimp and the clowns and the sand? Or did you just buy all those things together from your LFS at once, and they were all new?

It was a setup from the LFS, like a packaged deal. It wasnt used, I had another question while I have you here though,, Should I be running my skimmer at this time also? I was told to let it cycle first... thanks in advance. I also sniffed all my rocks individually ...lol. I did not notice any strong smells, however they are all covered with a coating of white sand from refilling my tank wth water, I tried not to stir the bed up much but I couldnt help it.

[OClownsandNanos]

That is just really weird, I've never heard of an LFS doing an actual instant "package" like that. It just seems so wrong on so many different levels. But I'm glad they took the clowns back temporarily for you. It's not really going to hurt your cycle to run your skimmer (although it may slightly prolong it), I ran activated carbon and did water changes mid-cycle because I was trying to soft cycle. But I'd suggest you wait to run it until you see your ammonia falling if you choose to do it early. Most people won't run their skimmer until their cycle is complete. They'll likely only run it if they're trying to soft cycle because they're trying to preserve life on their live rock.