diy stand plans

[bitts]

aj when it comes to miter joints. do you think it would be worth using a miter lock.

 

 

 

 

Woodworking Joints Torture Test - Wood Magazine Nov 2006

 

Are pocket screws stronger than dowels? Which of the woodworking joints give the most strength? Do screw add any strength to a joint?

For the "Wood Joint Torture Test" in WOOD Magazine issue #173, they created and then destroyed more than 100 joints.

 

Wood Magazine Shear test:

Mortise & Tenon Joint took 1,005 lbs/force - over double to triple the force to break compared to other joints.

 

Wood Magazine Pull Apart test:

Biscuit miter joint 220 lbs/force; Dado 559 lbs/force - screws did not help.

For a Mortise & Tenon Joint, the wood failed but not the joint. It took 4,733 lbs/force nearly 2½ tons to pull apart.

 

mmm...

 

 

interesting

http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/index.html

[ajmckay]

Holy crap! But it sounds about right. The screws I used (#10 gauge) have roughly a 600lb shear strength. That's the high quality ones, not the cheap ones. On top of that it's recommended that they only be subject to 400lbs continuous load. Pocket hole screws are much smaller in diameter, but they probably do produce some nice grab.

 

Now that's shear strength. I think tensile strength is where the screws would do well, however in the pull apart test it looks like the M&T beat out screws again!

 

I suppose that it really is important to leave the weight to the wood and keep the screws just for reinforcing.

[bitts]

found some pics that are pretty close to what ive been thinking.

http://egeberg.us/Miscellaneous/Aquarium/

[ajmckay]

That's a really nice hardwood stand...

 

Do you mean in construction method it's similar to what you want to do? I can't really tell what type of joinery he used besides the one picture that has a biscuit in it... So I guess I'll assume that he used biscuit joinery throughout.

The stand design looks pretty good... Simple and effective. Expensive though with the hardwood!

 

I wouldn't trust my woodworking skills just yet to build that kind of design. Maybe in another year or 2 when I set up a 120g... Hahaha.

[bitts]

mostly just the design. being able to put the sump in through the side. so as to have the stands footprint be of a 20L/29 display without increasing it to fit an equally sized sump.

 

using a design that has the front & back frames load baring. with the sides to prevent racking. thinking that if i do it though it would be pine. found that home depot has scrap wood in 4 foot pieces for 51 cents. then the face grade pines cost per board, is less than maples per foot. like 6$ for 1"x4"x8'. could do it for maybe 50$. probable more but still its pretty good. of coarse would have to add doors later but, hey thats easy enough to do later.

[pyronus]

TBH, I stand made with 3/4" plywood sides and a square frame in the top underneath the showtop with dado joints and it is more than strong enough to hold a 29 gallon tank. Stands made of 2x4's are serious overkill and just a waste of money, unless you are holding a GIANT Display tank.

 

Wood isn't going to fail in compression from a 30 gallon fish tank of any kind unless you used warped 1x1's. Mortise and tennon joints are more trouble then they are worth unless you have the right tools to make them quickly. I would just throw together a standard box of 3/4" ply with biscuits and then add a 2" surround to the face. Make a nice top and screw it down. I can make a sketchup if you'd like.

[bitts]

Pyronus

I would totally agree that the use of 2x4 is completely unnecessary. The only reason I've been able come up with as to why there used so often is that, there the first thing that come to mind when you ask your self what do I need.

"Ok I need some plywood & 2x4s"

Then the thought possess moves on to how do I do this. The other thing is that 2x4s are cheap. Like a third the cost of 1x4s.

 

I would also agree that plywood with dado joints would be an extremely effective method. The use of plywood would eliminate concerns about wood movement in a solid edge glued panel. Thus preventing the need to use butter joints. My only thing is that I hate the look of plywood. The only diy plywood stand I've ever really liked is disasters. So I tend to not go this was in design. A sketchup of this could be very useful for people. If you at some point get the time it would be a great addition.

 

As to m&t vs dado/rabbit joints because of the tools I have (drill, jigsaw, belt sander, radial arm saw) the m&t are actually easier for me to make. Was going to buy a router for this & a few other builds (Morris chair) but things change. Really wanted to do rounded corners & miter locks. But that brings up a good topic that should be addressed at some point. (Joint construction)

 

AJ as soon as I can I'll throw up th most resent doodle for critique.

[alex1237]

While I'll agree that m&t and dado/rabbit connections are strong enough for a stand built for nano tanks, those tension and shear numbers are for a well made connection. Since the discussion had been about a bulletproof stand and most here are not avid woodworkers it may not be the best approach. That said if you've got the skills, or time to learn, it is more than strong enough.

 

My stand is 2x4 with each member directly on top of the previous member. That way the screws simply hold the members together and bear no load.

 

Yes my stand is overbuilt, but we were able to move my 50 gallon cube full on the stand with no problem.

 

For fun here is what I built.

 

 

 

[bitts]

alex could you add a pic of your tank/stand.

[alex1237]

Here's a picture from before it was set up. I'll take another that shows both the stand and tank when I get home this afternoon.

 

[ajmckay]

Nice stand Alex!

 

Bitts, to add to why people use 2x4's, my main reason was mostly because I was comfortable with them. Just in the past 6 months or so have I gotten into wood working a little, so I wasn't really familiar with the different types of joinery. I stuck with 2x4's because I trusted them and had a pretty good level of confidence they could handle the weight because of how they're used in some floor construction (I can't break a 2x4 under 4ft, but I can break a 1x4 under 4ft pretty easily). That and they're cheap. On the flip side they're heavy as hell! I was seriously considering using 2x3's instead (or even 1x4's), but at the last moment I chickened out because I have a 36" spread unsupported in the middle and while wood can flex glass cannot, so I opted to overdo it. That and I didn't want my screws to be too close together.

 

I agree (after being more familiar with the different types of joinery that is...) that while these more direct types of joinery (dado grooves and M&T) are very strong, they must be accurately done. You can't shim a M&T if your off slightly and expect the same strength as one that's tight fitted... So for that reason I stuck with using screws, clamps, and glue. As did Alex, I made sure that the screws were not directly supporting any load. Instead my screws (along with glue and massive surface area) are only used in stiffening the stand to prevent racking.

 

For an analogy I would compare using glue and screws to a regular crunchy beef taco... Sure you can make some great tacos with chicken, pork, fish, steak, or vegetables (i.e. other types of more advanced joinery); but you need to have a bigger selection of spices (tools) and you have to use the right techniques to prepare the other meats. With a plain beef taco you only need taco seasoning and a spatula and you get delicious results every time.

 

So while 2x4's and screws might not need to be part of the bulletproof stand, they probably will continue to be because that's what we all have access to and knowledge about. That and the comfort level associated with a 2x4. In a few years my next stand (for at least a 120g tank) will be much different, hopefully incorporating more advanced techniques and materials (has anyone ever seen a carbon fiber aquarium stand!?). But then again maybe not as it still needs to be cheap so I can spend a lot on the inhabitants...

 

Finally, do you have any updated design plans for your stand?

[bitts]

ok here's all of the doodles I have basically.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ajmckay]

What size tank & sump will it be supporting?

[bitts]

mostly was just thinking on paper. its been unfinished in the hard drive for a while. but its either a 75/90 display or a 29/20 setup. since thats what i have on the planing list. the goal was to have the same size footprint for both display & sump. but really it was more a basic plan that could be a starting point for any stand. wanted to get it done added to the first post. seem to be lazy & putting it off though.

 

these would be some of the tanks I'm stealing ideas from.

 

 

 

[ajmckay]

All of those stands are worthy of emulation IMO...

 

Time to get off your butt! (Like I should talk... It took me a year to start...)

[bitts]

well at this point its all about the money.

as soon as I have some, the stand is happening. since the el cheapo one that I have for now is starting to bow. think it said something about being good for up to 300lb. oops.

[pyronus]

I'll post a picture of my stand, I'm moving this weekend so it will be a good time to show. Its pretty much just a box made of oak finished 3/4" ply with 2" face boards and I painted it black. There is also some bracing in the back to prevent parallelogram buckling. I think I spent about $40 on wood. I made the top by edge laminating some Maple I had as scrap from another project.

 

I actually even cut the doors out of ply wood, used a round router bit on the edges and filled the tearout with filler putty. Since the plan was to paint it black all along it turned out pretty great.

 

Ply turns out nice if you use high quality finish ply, and can hide the edges or are painting. A good example is Evil's stand. I'll get a sketchup going tonight or maybe at work here if I can sneak it.

[ajmckay]

Dude I hear you... Money sucks (rather the lack of money sucks). I promised my wife that I wouldn't spend any money on my setup this month... The amazing part is that I actually haven't!

 

Instead I went around and gathered up a bunch of returns (from other house projects) and returned that stuff But I'll have to wait another week to buy the bulkheads from BRS (my LFS wants $9 per bulkhead! and I need 4. BRS has them for like $4 each...).

 

Pyro, I think my stand cost around $200, but that includes the cost for everything (wood, glue, screws, trim boards, hinges, paint, etc...) I think the wood cost was just about $100 total.

[bitts]

the best i've come up with so far for price is face grade pine for the front. would need a 1x4 @ 6 feet for the up rights & a 1x6 @ 6 feet for the top?sides. with misalliance 1x2's to finish things out. this would cost about 14-18 dollars. so figure 20. then could leave the sides open for extra doors to the sump. (also have to have a way to get it in there) internal framing could be supplied by the scrap wood bin @ the box store. figure 5-10 dollars. other thing I was thinking was edge glued pine (20$ for a 18"x6' board) for the ends. but no doors & the sump has to go in from the back. meaning that there is no full length support, & the tanks weight would rest on butt joints instead of lap joints. since i dont have a router to cut a dado joint with. the other problem with an edge glued panel is of coarse the issue of wood movement. but my question on this is, if the wood movement is from changes in humidity. would it it really matter since the evap from the tank should stabilize at least the localized humidity. would rather not deal with butter joints. still either way should be about 50 plus paint/stain, screws, leveling feet.

[pyronus]

I sketched some last night and realized I should have left the doors off. The sump isn't in the stand to show the construction. You can see the dado's on the top and the bottom and a support dado in the back, all joints are glued with biscuits no screws. The top is screwed to the frame through the 2 top support rails with 4 screws.

 

 

[markandstaci]

the best i've come up with so far for price is face grade pine for the front. ... still either way should be about 50 plus paint/stain, screws, leveling feet.

 

I've read on multiple threads that pine does not take stain very well... just a heads up.

[pyronus]

There are products you can apply to make pine take an even stain. What happens with pine is that when it dries the wood grain has different densities. Its also a pain to stain endgrain no matter what you do so something like this is in order.

[phi delt reefer]

heres mine;

 

display sump idea taken from Bitts

 

 

 

[bitts]

pyro that bulkhead is impressive, thanks for posting the sketch. is it in the warehouse.

 

phi delta. add a link to the build thread. would love to see more info, details & post the pics of the tanks too.

[pyronus]

pyro that bulkhead is impressive, thanks for posting the sketch. is it in the warehouse.

 

phi delta. add a link to the build thread. would love to see more info, details & post the pics of the tanks too.

I haven't loaded the sketch into the warehouse no. I just modeled the bulkhead into the tank along with the overflow (cut hole, offset tool, pull bulkhead out, move outter edge back towards the tank) but it wouldn't be to much work to make a bulkhead component. A few minutes at most. Threads and stuff on the otherside would be harder. I'd need to get the pro version out for that.