Cyano Revisited

[thecowkid]

Ya know I dont know if this has anything to do with it...BUT. My tank has been up and runnin for over a year. Not one patch of any cayno. A bit of dinos 11 months ago, but long gone. Well WTH all the sudden I've got dino like cayno right under the pumps main return and only on the sand. WC's out the ears, no lights 4 eva, up the calc and mag ALOT. Nothing. Finally had to blast it with RSR. Boom gone. Then I look back at my tank log.

 

Here it comes. Every time in the fall when we first turn on the furnace I get cayno. Now is this a coincidence or not? I dunno. But this type of cayno is nothing short of a Beioch. I mean it grew in 2" strands a day. Just like dinos, but didnt go away with the absence of light.

[jeremai]

a while back I had a cyano issue in my NW9, which I attributed to the increase in nutrients after the death of a fish. I did a few large waterchanges and left the lights off for three days, but still had cyano as if nothing changed. eventually I just ignored the tank and let it do its thing for a couple months - the only input I had was topping off. the light cycle stayed regular. the cyano ended up disappearing.

 

fast forward to this week. I recently transfered the contents of the NW9 to a standard 10g. I did not add or subtract anything but the tank - sand, rocks, corals all the same at that time. four days after the switch I noticed a bit of cyano on the sand; today, it's prolific. I have not added nutrients to this system in a month and a half or so. the start of the cyano predated my lighting upgrade.

 

I did a water change yesterday, six of ten gallons, and siphoned all the cyano out. today it's as if I didn't do anything. I have no idea what it means, and I'm just going to ride it out, but there's my bit.

[Weetabix7]

Fosi-- thank you VERY much for your input, that's exactly the kind of thing we needed.

However, for those less scientifically minded, could you explain "benthic" and "pelagic"?

In just a little bit I will try to post some different strategies and supplements used to counteract Cyanobacteria.

[violinist]

You should submit your response to the magazine. Maybe they would print it and allow the author of the article to give a reply.

[Mr. Fosi]

However, for those less scientifically minded, could you explain "benthic" and "pelagic"?

 

"Pelagic" refers to the open water component of an aquatic ecosystem. "Benthic" refers to lake/stream bed or sea floor of such a system.

 

Our systems are almost exclusively hard-bottom, benthic systems because they are populated almost entirely by organisms that live on/in hard benthic habitats (like LR). The benthic and pelagic components of aquatic systems generally have different or differently-arranged biogeochemistry, which is at the heart of what we are talking about in this thread.

[Mr. Fosi]

You should submit your response to the magazine. Maybe they would print it and allow the author of the article to give a reply.

 

I thought about it while I was writing it, but I had to move on to other things when I was done. I'll make a note to look up how I might submit it tomorrow morning.

[ajmckay]

Fosi,

 

Thanks for the well thought-out response. I would make an attempt to support/challenge your thoughts, but I'll need some further time to digest the material. I'm an accountant with only 1 semester of biology... hahaha! Oh well, that doesn't stop me from attempting to learn more. I'm also working on the Mooley article as well (thanks for the link).

 

Billdemart, this isn't typically free, but the December issue was an special introductory free digital download. You can, however, access the digital format if you're a subscriber. IMO out of the magazines I've purchased, CORAL is one of the better (though much more expensive).

[Urchinhead]

a while back I had a cyano issue in my NW9, which I attributed to the increase in nutrients after the death of a fish. I did a few large waterchanges and left the lights off for three days, but still had cyano as if nothing changed. eventually I just ignored the tank and let it do its thing for a couple months - the only input I had was topping off. the light cycle stayed regular. the cyano ended up disappearing.

 

fast forward to this week. I recently transfered the contents of the NW9 to a standard 10g. I did not add or subtract anything but the tank - sand, rocks, corals all the same at that time. four days after the switch I noticed a bit of cyano on the sand; today, it's prolific. I have not added nutrients to this system in a month and a half or so. the start of the cyano predated my lighting upgrade.

 

I did a water change yesterday, six of ten gallons, and siphoned all the cyano out. today it's as if I didn't do anything. I have no idea what it means, and I'm just going to ride it out, but there's my bit.

 

You kicked something off when you did the move. Most likely from the sandbed.

 

And Fosi... From what I understood of what you wrote you were right. Hence nothing to disagree with. Now swing arm vs. floating hydrometers...

[jeremai]

I don't think so - the sand in the NW9 (and now in the 10g) was barely a quarter inch thick, and I stirred it every few days once the original cyano outbreak subsided. that routine maintenance, coupled with the water changes performed after my transfer (100% during the transfer, then 2x6g over eight days) lead me to rule out the sand as a significant cause. if the act of transferring the sand caused the cyano outbreak, than the act of stirring it twice a week should have as well.

 

 

or I'm wrong. wouldn't be the first time.

[Jacobnano]

Quick question, does silica increase growth of diatoms? Or other pest algae? Either way I get a lot more when I turn on my in window AC unit. It blasts air from the outside right at the tank, could silica in the air be getting into the tank and causing this? I thought it was interesting.

[Mr. Fosi]

I wrote an email to the publisher of Coral asking how to submit a letter to the editor and he was kind enough to ask me to send it as a word file directly to him... So I think I will. Thanks to violinist for the nudge.

 

Those of you that get the magazine will have to let me know if they publish it and if Brockmann responds.

[Weetabix7]

I wrote an email to the publisher of Coral asking how to submit a letter to the editor and he was kind enough to ask me to send it as a word file directly to him... So I think I will. Thanks to violinist for the nudge.

 

Those of you that get the magazine will have to let me know if they publish it and if Brockmann responds.

 

Cool beans.

 

or I'm wrong. wouldn't be the first time.

 

You're wrong sometimes????

 

:o

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scubasteve2580]

so if what i am understanding is correct, these phosphates build in our systems over time, no matter how clean we keep them.. after they hit a certain concentration, the reaction is triggered, and your stuck with the cyano until all sources are consumed???????? when all sources are consumed, if none are continuously added, the cyano will then perish.. ime when the cyano disappears, its that fast, it disappears... so the uptake of nutrients is pretty rapid... what ius interesting to me, is that i had a bit of hair algae before my most recent cyano bloom.. 3 or 4 days into the cyano bloom, the hair algae turned slimy and started falling off the rocks and glass.. is it possible for the cyano to release spores during a reproductive cycle that is being consumed by the hair algae and killing it off as a means of food for the cyano???? it seems to me that it would take much longer for hair algae to just die off than it doesn when a cyano bloom takes place.

[fewskillz]

Good discussion everybody. I've got some red slime in my 55. I've been debating what to do about it all week. I'll start the battle this weekend. Gonna try a large water change and a blackout for starters.

[Weetabix7]

Gillz recently tried using Microbacter 7 by Brightwell Aquatics to deal with a bad Cyano outbreak that wouldn't go away with conventional treatments: http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...t=0&start=0

BibleSue tried to use the same product and not only didn't it work for her, it seriously aggravated a very large Rhodactis Mushroom in her tank.

Could this be because they had very different strains of Cyano?

[Mr. Fosi]

My hypothesis for why some people have cyano problems and others don't is that the cyanobacteria are simply able to better compete for nutrients over other organisms and that the cyanobacteria have less predation pressure to deal with than do other algae.

 

If this is the case, then the answer to defeating cyanobacteria is to introduce effective competition AND predation, an argument that I partially laid out in the article I wrote about the nitrogen cycle. According to the Van Mooy, dosing with DOC may not be effective, because the heterotrophic bacteria they looked at were incapable of doing the PO4 two-step that the cyanobacteria were accomplishing, but it is still something I would try. I would try this, preferably concurrently to adding some form of predator that prefers cyanobacteria, though results may vary depending on the cyano you're infested with. As a last resort, a person might use one of the "red slime removers", which are generally comprised of a broad-spectrum antimicrobial.

 

Or you could do a Tim Taylor and hit them with all three at the same time!

[fewskillz]

What kind of predator prefers cyano?

[Mr. Fosi]

The only one that I can think of off the top of my head is a seahare, though I've had some luck with blue-leg hermits going after it.

[Urchinhead]

I don't think so - the sand in the NW9 (and now in the 10g) was barely a quarter inch thick, and I stirred it every few days once the original cyano outbreak subsided. that routine maintenance, coupled with the water changes performed after my transfer (100% during the transfer, then 2x6g over eight days) lead me to rule out the sand as a significant cause. if the act of transferring the sand caused the cyano outbreak, than the act of stirring it twice a week should have as well.

 

 

or I'm wrong. wouldn't be the first time.

 

Not necessarily. I jumped the gun. There *MAY* have been dormant bacterium in the sand that you didn't necessarily 'stir' out (I don't know if cyano is capable of dormancy/stasis like other forms) and there is plenty of "stuff" that would be in the sand that you didn't necessarily stir out. Especially under the rockwork. Alternately you could have had detritus on the rocks, bad source water (TDS et al) that you didn't catch, etc. Try my method listed above. You should be able to take it out that way pretty quickly.

[Urchinhead]

My hypothesis for why some people have cyano problems and others don't is that the cyanobacteria are simply able to better compete for nutrients over other organisms and that the cyanobacteria have less predation pressure to deal with than do other algae.

 

Logical and makes sense.

 

If this is the case, then the answer to defeating cyanobacteria is to introduce effective competition AND predation, an argument that I partially laid out in the article I wrote about the nitrogen cycle. According to the Van Mooy, dosing with DOC may not be effective, because the heterotrophic bacteria they looked at were incapable of doing the PO4 two-step that the cyanobacteria were accomplishing, but it is still something I would try. I would try this, preferably concurrently to adding some form of predator that prefers cyanobacteria, though results may vary depending on the cyano you're infested with. As a last resort, a person might use one of the "red slime removers", which are generally comprised of a broad-spectrum antimicrobial.

 

Why as a last resort? I don't recall any particular down side effects from a broad spectrum antibacterial/microbial upon our livestock save for the killing of "beneficial" (note the quotes) bacterium but that can be mitigated by reintroduction of said strains similar to what we do with humans when they are on antibiotics and we give them probiotics. Furthermore why would it not make sense to do what Tim Taylor (and without looking at what he does but based on my own protocols) does? After all the goal is to reduce the levels of cyano in the tank to the point where other entities can out-compete it for nutrients thus keeping it controlled if not eliminated (I doubt elimination is possible without total sterilization of the tank itself)?

[Mr. Fosi]

Why as a last resort?

 

Because I don't like to resort to biochemical means as a first resort... I'm an ecologist!

 

Furthermore why would it not make sense to do what Tim Taylor (and without looking at what he does but based on my own protocols) does?

 

It does make sense, which is why I included it. However, the scientist in me likes to search for the simplest solution rather than shotgunning it, so that's what I default to.

[fewskillz]

I like Tim Taylor's methods.

 

HARR HARR HARR HARR HARR.

[ajmckay]

I've had asterina snails consume cyano. But I had to physically place them on a patch of cyano as they didn't seem to go there on their own.

[scubasteve2580]

Because I don't like to resort to biochemical means as a first resort... I'm an ecologist!

 

 

 

It does make sense, which is why I included it. However, the scientist in me likes to search for the simplest solution rather than shotgunning it, so that's what I default to.

ok fosi you seem to know your $hit so i have a really really good question.... looked in my tank a bit ago and noticed some detritis in the back corner.. no big deal.. little pile.. but it was different than usual. it had a swarm of tiny black things all around it like flies on poop. literally swimming in a swarm around it.. any thoughts? only changes ive made lately is adding live brine shrimp to try to get them to grow out in the refugium.. surely not young brine shrimp huh?

[Mr. Fosi]

Weird. O.o I wouldn't think it was brine shrimp, no.