Fuge or UGF?

[jing]

I'm planning to setup my 10 gals. tank, do anyone of you still uses an undergravel filter? Is it obsolete? What are the disadvantages?

 

I'm also planning to get at least an AC300, what should I put inside? Do a regular carbon and wool will do? What does an ideal fuge for a 10 gal tank compose of? Surely, here in the Philippines we don't need heater for our setups.

[ViolentBliss]

Don't use an undergavel filter on a reef setup. Once your tank is established your main source of filtration will be your live sand bed and rock. Invest in those. 15-20 lbs of live sand and about 10-15 lbs live rock. These a nature's filters and cannot be surpassped.

 

Undergravel filters create a gap between the tank bottom and the gravel bed. This area has air blown into it to create a suction where the debris will fall into. The aerobic environment in this area supports bacteria that will break down these wastes. (Roughly).

 

The problem: Live sand is too fine for most undergravel filters. To step aside from a technical explanation.... The conditions created by an undergravel filter can potentially create rotting in your live sand bed due to its aerobic nature.

 

Solution: Use the live sand and rock. Buy a cheap hang on filter. The smallest one will suffice. Change the filter every three days for about 2 weeks (Provided your rock is cured). Get a chemi-pure filter bag and replace your filter media with it. Forget about it for 6 months. You must also use the smallest powerheads you can get for water movement. One on each side is usually good.

 

Finally, water quality will determine the success of your tank. If your supermarkets in the Philippines carry distilled water for cheap, use only that to fill your tank. Don't do water changes. It's not necessary as long as you're smart. Just top it off with more distilled water as it evaporates. NO Protein Skimming on a 10 gallon. Save yourself money on chemical supplements to replenish after skimming. As for a heater...use a thermometer. If it's stable 80-82 degrees than you don't need it.

 

The less you touch it the better it'll be.

[maroonclown]

ViolentBliss, please tell me you're joking about not changing water. In a 10 gallon, you should change about 1 gallon a week. It's alot more sensible then not changing it at all. Also, distilled water is a big risk. Most water is distilled in copper tubing, and copper will kill your inverts.

[maroonclown]

Also, UGF suck. I had one on my reef, but I shut it down, and I can't remove the filter plates (that is a huge problem). Also, I come from the school of the Berlin method: heavy protein skimming, water flow, and bright light. A fuge is a good addition and that is about all it is. Also, frequent water changes are the key to excellent water quality. Keep that in mind when you set the tank up.

[ViolentBliss]

Im serious. If you're not certain about the distilling process of your water manufacturer, by all means buy purified water. It costs about the same and is basically RO. Skimming creates a problem in the nano, because it removes trace elements along with waste. As the old saying goes, it's easier to start a reef with a larger tank, because there is less room for changes (temperature, salinity, etc. ) Protien skimming would cause more harm than good. Especially for a beginner. As for water changes...it's like oil changes. Americans have it set in their brains every 3000 miles. Europeans say every 15. They bring their cars here and claim every 5. Why? Because they know it's the way we've always done things and we'll never accept that much of a difference. Water changes are only necessary after certain situations (coral death, medication, etc.) You'll be surprised on how well a properly maintained reef does without changes. And I'm positive there has to be people out their with scientific documents to prove this..unless I was the only one crazy or lazy enough to try.

[dickie52]

Voilent,

 

All I can say is that the proof is in the pudding....

 

If you have been doing this over a year without a problem....

 

Well then no one can call you a fool....

 

How long and what have you been keeping in this tank ?

[maroonclown]

Trust me, I was lazy enough to try going 3 months without a water change, now I find it's easier to change 1-5 gallons at least once a month, or when the tank isn't looking "normal". I had to combat a huge algae problem because of both my laziness and crappy tapwater. It is easier to change 1 gallon one or two times a month then ripping out algae and changing 4-5 gallons a week until you get things under control. And I said the Berlin method requires frequent water changes, therefore restoring the trace element equalibrium. I need to put a skimmer on my green chromis FOWLR. It needs it, after all, it's a 10 gallon with 3 fish, which I'll admit is just begging for disaster (thank God I have the will power to resist "just one more fish"). And yes, I have heard of a system with no skimmer, no sump, and the most advanced technology is the powerheads and lights. It is a 120 gallon reef that has been adapted from Lee Chin Eng's method. No filters at all. But that tank only has 4 fish, all of them the size of a cardinal fish. The guy who owns it never changed the water, but he uses almost no fish, and the system is huge. A nano is just too small to run this type of risk. Stick with water changes, maybe not the "10% a month" rule, but some water change is needed. And hey, I'm an American, and I change my oil every 1000-1500 miles. And it was the Europeans that developed the Berlin Method, and they do huge 20% water changes. I guess this is just going to turn into one hell of a debate. Oh well, the debates are what make these forums interesting.

[mattie]

the doing no water changes can be true but your not explaining all the facts about absorbtion of nutrients and elemnts. and the doseing to replenish these.

undergravel filters work great but must be taken apart and cleaned every year(major bummer) so I recommend against it.

do not pay attention to the hype of distelled water and copper. if it had copper in it it would not be distilled water. and the company labeling it would be breaking federal laws

as far as how you run the ac 300 read up in the information section about filtration.

but most lfs sell ro/di water for less$ than distilled at the store

[maroonclown]

Really, so you're saying I can use a UG on a coral quarintine system? If so, great. Yeah, mattie is right, run the AC 300. But distilling water in copper pipes doesn't break any laws that I know of. The copper won't effect humans, but it can build up a concentration that is high enough to kill inverts, and it can build up really quickly. That is the reason we are leary of distilled water. If you can find proof it is glass distilled, good, and use it.

[mattie]

not that I should care but

distelled water cannot have elements like metals in them or they would cause problems in irons, steamers and other equipment that require distilled water for there operation. if it had copper it would cause a build up and could be a saftey hazzard.

 

a UG filter is ideal for a Q/T it works great and creates no strong currents which is good for sick fish or when trying to raise fry

[ViolentBliss]

I have a 37 and 10 gallon setup. The 37 has been running strong for 3 years without a water change before I moved. The 10 gallon has been running for about a year. I do use a skimmer on the 37, but I find it uneccesary on the 10. I don't even use it that often on the 37, to tell you the truth. My primary forms of filtration are a thick live sand bed (~3 inches), plenty of live rock, and macro algae (although that requires its own set of maintenance). I have good lighting 6-7 watts per gallon, a moderate current, and use only the purest water. I keep no fish in the 10. I left a baby yellow tang in there to eat up the hair algae after an incident. My water is always crystal. I find supplemantation of trace elements an afterthought rather than a set task. And I rarely feed my tank. I know this may sound fruity, but I've come to a zen like stage. I let the tank take care of itself for the most part. As for the incident with the yellow tang....no matter how careful you are about the water you use, if you buy one piece of coral at your lfs with hair algae or velonia, you're gonna be screwed. I let the tang eat the algae and starve to death and release its nutrients back into the system. No flames. I have a madrake growing in my tank which is kinda cool but I have no clue what I'm going to do when it gets bigger. I made a lot of mistakes. I hatched a nurse shark in my 37 gallon. It ate my 250 dollar crocea. I bought feather starfish for a pretty penny and watched them fall apart. I realized sea horses are evil. My point, if I do have one, is that everyone makes mistakes and will continue to make mistakes. What works for me may not work for everyone, but eventually if you keep at it you'll learn what works best for you. Don't do drugs. Stay in school. No means no.

[onthefly]

Originally posted by ViolentBliss

I let the tang eat the algae and starve to death and release its nutrients back into the system......... I hatched a nurse shark in my 37 gallon.  It ate my 250 dollar crocea.  

 

Oh Crap......I just got done refuting what you told some other new comer in another post about the "hands off no w/c method".......and WOW! This blows my mind!!! Your "Zen/hippy/tree-hugger mentality about the tang is JUST WRONG!!! Poor husbandry and bad taste!!!! I don't hear the "tang police" coming for you my friend, I heard the "tang lynch mob". Good Luck with that!!!

 

You preach "read, read, read"...but WTF were you doing with a nurse in a 37ga??? Did you have your 200ga ready to go in the garage???

 

Man, you're a piece of work!

[Reefer_Buddha]

violent bliss

 

"skimming causes more harm than good" Id like to see the evidence on that. I guess im just harming my tank removing the detritus and fish crap and i should just let it stay on the bottom and hope all my inverts eat it. Good logic. Whats good for you tank isnt good for all tanks and because youve ran one for X amount of years successfully just means you know YOUR tank.

[Ike]

First of all, an airstone operated undergravel filter doesn't blow air into the gap created by the filter plate and the tank bottom. It will generally have two tubes in the corners into which airstones are placed. The air from the stones rises up the tubes, which creates a current that draws water down through the substrate, through the plate at the bottom and eventually up the tubes and back into the water column.

 

This issn't a good filter for your reef because yes it will become clogged with sand & the flow will be restricted. This will create an an anaerobic environment, no an aerobic one. If done properly & intentionnally, however, this anaerobic environment is called a plennum and is a great way to naturally convert Nitrate to Nitrogen gas. Many successful systems use plennums. For a 10 gallon though you would probably be better off just using live rock and a shallow sand bed and doing regular water changes.

 

About not doing water changes; while there are some people who claim to have successful systems that go without water changes I have yet to see one that would meet my deffinition of "success". They all seem to be covered with algae& generally unhealthy looking. Water changes are the only way I know of to export harmful by-products like Nitrate & excess organics and replenish depleted elements like calcium, iodine, magnesium, strontium, etc. in natural ballanced quantities. Violent, if you can show us some pictures of your successful, no water changes, tank perhaps I'd reconsider.

 

Finally, the jury is still out on skimming small tanks. But I would argue that if you can afford a small one get it. The benefits far outweigh the claimed problems. The increase in dissolved oxygen alone is reason enough. Skimmers also get rid of lots of dissolved organic crud. Just make sure you have a way for it to surface skim. I have a Prizm on a 15 gallon & the ammount of foul smelling crud that it pulls out is amazing.

[Ike]

Sorry, forgot about you r fuge question. I would reccomend just converting another 10 gallon tank into a sump/fuge. It will gve you the benefits of almost doubling your water volume, give you more room for your fuge, and give you a place to keep your pump, heater (if you use one there), probes, float switches, etc. Just take a tank and cut a sheet of acrylic into two baffles that fit it's width. Divide the length of the tank into thirds & silicone the baffles into place so that you now have three chambers. The baffles should come up @ 2/3 of the way from tank bottom to top. Now you have a tank with three chambers. Tha firs is going to be the chamber that accepts the drain from your display tank. The water will then flow over the first baffle into the second chamber. This will be your fuge. You can put some sand in there, some live rock, some macro algae, etc. and light it somehow. I'm using a Lights Of America 27 watt PC outdoor floodlight. It works great & fits perfectly over the fuge space. From there the water will flow over the second baffle and into the third chamber that will contain your return pump.

 

This is for a sump/fuge that will sit below the main tank. There are other plans for a similar set-up that sits above the main tank and uses gravity to return the water rather than a pump. Brooklyn Johnny has this type of set-up. I'm not familiar with it's constuction though, but it's probably similar and just as easy to do.

[maroonclown]

Violent, you put a f***ing baby nurse in a 37?! WTF, are you nuts?! And the baby tang in the 10? That would have been fine if you kept it alive and ACTUALLY REMOVED THE BODY AFTER YOU LET IT DIE! jing, do not listen to what he told you. He is dead wrong there. Just trust the rest of us for anything you want to know. Violent, your zen "method", is BS! I call that a feeble attempt at an aquarium. Everything you have listed about your tank, is just horrible husbandry. You need to get your act together before you try to "help" newbies with your "methods". Correct these damn mistakes as soon as possible. Or you could re-start the tank as FW.

[jing]

Ike,

 

Is this all I need for my filtration? Or do I still need to setup a wool and carbon or any ceramic media for my filter? How about a power filter? Is it advisble?

[ViolentBliss]

Heressy! Heressy! Infidel! Hahaha.. My examples of idiocy were just to show what "not" researching could create. I've been in the reef hobby for quite some time. I've been in the fish hobby even longer, but I still make mistakes. Expensive ones at time. I apologize for not explaining myself fully. The shark was meant for a much larger tank. I decided to hatch it in the reef tank as the environment was healthier. It was in a partially enclosed specimen container. I didn't notice that it had hatched and escaped the container for a few days as the pod was intact. (It takes months for this thing to hatch..after a while you don't look for something wiggiling in there). It ate my clam and a few other things before I discovered it. Even after transfering it to the bigger tank, it perished due to nutritional needs. I've learned from numerous errors and reading that certain species cannot be/ should not be kept. It is a constant battle between logic and ego. If any of you have never succumbed to this, feel free to flame me to the ends of hell.

 

My tank has no nuissance algae. Or rather no visible nuissance algae. I've had my share of problems, but I've solved them with natural methods. And after time it stabilizes to almost a care free experience (zen).

 

Protein skim and do water changes all you want. But know that the key to any tank's success is equilibrium. If you can maintain even levels of PH, calcium, blah, blah...while doing these things in a nano..go for it. Frankly, it seems to be a waste of time, money and effort, as everything has been thriving without for me.

 

Finally...I knew I was gonna get it..The Baby Yellow Tang. I'm no tree hugger. I love animals..to eat. If you think all life is precious than join PETA. I love my reef. I don't like tangs. It was a tool for me. It served its purpose and I had no use for it. I could've returned it to the PETCO after the algae was gone, but instead of leaving it to the highshool dropouts to kill it in the store, I decided to let it eat every scrap of algae in the tank before it died. As for leaving it in the tank....have you ever left a dead fish in a well stocked reef tank? It literally disappears in a matter of hours. It's quite amazing.

 

I've had an incredible amount of resources and time to putz around with my tanks for a very long time now. I have done things even more shocking or idiotic than those mentioned above. I've lived, loved and lost. In the end I have discovered that the simplest methods usually work the best. That was my point. If I offended anyone, or will cause nightmares of dying babies, I apologize. But do not dismiss my key points. If you are capable of it, or rather, have the luxury of trying something new...use better water instead of doing water changes..don't use a skimmer...leave your tank alone.. You may discover a pleasant surprise...hopefully good.

 

Note to self: Must be careful what I write..lest my house be torched by rabid fishkeepers.

[maroonclown]

You think of tangs as tools? No way, tangs are good allies for algae control, not tools. Who gives a damn of how fast a dead organism "dissapears" in a reef. It is still going to cause a water quality problem. And I'm sorry if you think the fish ###### that sits on the bottom of the tank from not skimming is a good thing. And I apologize for causing a trace element "imbalance" because I change my water and use a skimmer. You should really reconsider what your doing in this hobby. BTW, I hate PETA, and all their members, so don't you try to pin that title on me. But I think PETCO, even though they suck so badly, would have taken better care of that tang than you did. I'll admit I have made the classic mistakes (over stocking, wrong animals, etc.), but I have not been lazy, meaning I didn't miss water changes, leave the dead fish in the tank, or not skimming. Oh, and it sounds to me like you're trying to cover your own ass from your last post. Just think before you post from now on.

[Reefer_Buddha]

dave? is that you?

[jing]

Hey! Chill out every body!

[tinyreef]

I let the tang eat the algae and starve to death and release its nutrients back into the system. No flames.

dude, that's just wrong.

 

i don't understand why you just couldn't buy some romaine lettuce, nori, or fish flake for it? zen? that's not zen, you used it to get rid of the algae. accepting the algae and letting the system achieve stability is zen.

 

hey, i understand that everyone's made mistakes, especially the stoopid kinds but that's just cruelty, man. violent, you are lucky this is the beginner's forum so there won't be any flames. (unless some mystic force moves this to the lounge, then we'll probably invite RDO or RC's tang police into the firefight)

 

jing,

 

i would skip the ugf. nice FW filter concept but not for SW (unless you like vacuuming).

 

regarding wc's, i wouldn't recommend not doing wc's for starting out. maybe after a year or two once you let the system settle in and you get to know the nuances of your individual system. i went without wc's for almost two years but in the end i had a spiraling disaster, not really due to the lack of wc's but fresh wc's helped me pull the tank out of a nose dive.

 

carte blanche, "no wc's" is a recipe for disaster imo. it can be done but so can crocea spawning or goniopora budding but you don't see experienced aquarists tackle those processes regularly.

 

btw, welcome to NR.

[ViolentBliss]

Save the Tangs! Pro-Life! Onward Christian soldiers! Hahhaa..you people crack me up. C'mon before you folks get all your morals worked up, unscrew the vise from your nuts and realise what hobby you're in. You are in fact supporting the decimation of countless eco-systems and the murder of millions of fish and corals a year. Yes, my tang was a tool. It served no more purpose than to rid my tank of algae. Is it better or worse than the thousand of perculas that died because your snot nosed kids wanted Nemo? Or the gonipora you bought because it looked cool even though you knew no one has ever been able to keep it alive? Just because I express my actions in a manner not PC with you, does not give any of you the right to judge me. This hobby is cruel. Don't make yourselves feel better by thinking you're providing a better life for what miserable creature is in your tank. You're not. It'd rather be in an ocean. My tank is soley for my own selfish pleasure. I do whatever it takes to keep it thriving and aesthetically pleasing with the minimum effort required by me. I admit it and I accept it. Grow up and accept it as well, or else I'll sic Kodo and Podo on you. Hahaha.

 

P.S. PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Proud Member.

 

 

Long Days....

[Reefer_Buddha]

mod please close this thread before someone kills the newb

[tinyreef]

violent,

i'm well aware of the hobby i'm in and i've made dumb mistakes too. my commentary is regarding the level of callousness (imo) you are showing. now if that's just you, then whatever. but here in the beginners' forum the other posters and myself are just making it clear that most people don't accept that kind of behaviour.

 

i (we) would hate to have the next wave of newbs go out and buy tangs for a few weeks and then purposedly starve them to achieve 'balance'. that is the main concern i think everyone here is having.

 

should i buy a beagle to chase away the rabbits raiding my garden and after he's finished just let him die and rot on the garden, returning his nutrients to the soil? btw that's your example but with a terrestrial animal.

 

just because you think the hobby is cruel doesn't give you (or anyone else) the right to be cruel. that's a mob mentality. if i thought i was being cruel, i would stop. if you can show me i was being cruel, i would stop. you have be able to look at yourself, not just see if you 'blend in'.

 

i'm not a tree-hugger but your indifference to the pet's life is pretty shallow. just my opinion, not a judgement over you as i'm not your father or parole officer. btw i see your point (kinda) i just don't agree with it.