TimDanger's CADlights 39g Pro

[timdanger]

I'm definitely enjoying my Apex Lite -- still not running it wirelessly, but it's nice to have everything automated/controlled. My temperatures and pH have been very stable (temp of 77.5-79 and pH of 8.15-8.3), my dosing has been worry-free, maintenance has been less of a hassle, and cords are more organized. I love this thing.

 

I will say that I wish I had a second EB8 -- i have more things to control than i have controllable outlets. I'm kind of surprised that Neptune doesn't offer a package with 2 EB8s, frankly. I can't be the only person who has this issue.

 

Despite the stability that the apex has been providing, and despite the ground probe, and despite the change in flow pattern, removal of DSB/excess LR from sump, etc...... coral coloration still sucks (and i can't tell whether there's been any improvement at all). So frustrating. phosphates/nitrates still not detectable on API test kit (though I do have some cotton candy algae in the sump, a clear film algae over a lot of the rocks, and very sparse patches of hair algae here and there). Growth is mediocre.

 

even though i've increased dosing by about 50% over the last 2 months, my Alk is staying steady at 7.5dkh, my Ca at 400ppm. Mg was at 1500 as of 2 weeks ago. salinity is 1.025-1.026 on my refractometer.

 

as far as photo period goes, currently, actinics are on for 12 hours, halides are on for 8, fuge light is on for opposite 12 of halides.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry for your loss. Its always hard to lose an awesome fish. Will you try another one?

 

after having given it a few weeks to think about, I still don't know whether I'll do another bluespot, at least in this tank. they're great fish, no question -- but, they're expensive, and i'm just not sure that i have the sandbed to support one. it could've been for a lot of reasons, but i noticed a decline in mine as soon as i started adding courser/sharper grain sand (which I had added so that it wouldn't get blown around by my powerheads).

[Markushka]

corals are funny that way. I think this thread really needs some more pics up!

[timdanger]

i agree. more pictures!

 

i imagine i'll post some this evening -- i've got to do a water change, and i've unfortunately noticed some slight tissue recession on one of my more sensitive SPS, so i'll probably want to document that.

 

this is so frustrating. i might be looking at a tank reboot if i don't notice significant improvement in the next 2-3 months. maybe my rocks are the problem.

[timdanger]

just to document, figured out an issue with my Apex programming as related to dosing.

 

Currently dosing 20ml/day 2-part to try and raise my Alk up to ~9-10dkh. the dosing happens in consecutive minutes at night. however, the Apex is programmed to turn off dosing pumps if the pH goes above 8.35. the pH probe is located directly down-wind of the Alk dosing tube.

 

so, watching the dosing process, it looks like the Apex is cutting off my dosing pumps for approximately half of the dosing period because the Alk raises the pH (at least the local pH of the water to 8.35 pretty quickly.

 

Luckily, i've caught this. i'll need to spread out the dosing periods into more frequent and smaller increments to avoid this going forward.

[d9hp]

Great looking tank Tim. Also nice to see an ACC supporter. I have a couple of questions for you.

 

I believe I may have some stray voltage in the tank and I'm not entirely sure simply sticking a meter in there is going to show me anything. Did you see any immediate improvements from the grounding probe? I understand why people use them but to me it seems a little funky. If there is a pump on the opposite side of the tank, whatever voltage it is exposing to the water would effectively drop to 0V to the grounding probe across the tank. This means there is constantly a relatively high current flowing through the water column of your display tank. This sounds like it would be absolutely terrible.

 

What concerns me isn't that you read 2V from the tank (with nothing on) to the ground socket in your wall, but that there appears to be different voltages when comparing the different equipment. Do you know if those readings were AC or DC readings? You mentioned it was a nice fluke 120VAC meter, but not how you measured.

 

So are you still running the probe? Did all your problems go away?

 

You promised pictures! Any updates on the recession from that one SPS piece?

 

Sorry for the rant I am just wondering!

[timdanger]

Great looking tank Tim. Also nice to see an ACC supporter.

 

thanks!

 

I believe I may have some stray voltage in the tank and I'm not entirely sure simply sticking a meter in there is going to show me anything.

 

why not? it will show you if there is any stray voltage if you do it properly.

 

Did you see any immediate improvements from the grounding probe?

 

first of all, don't use a ground probe without a GFCI. that is the most important thing.

 

now, as far as immediate improvements? not really, but i think we're in the wrong hobby if we're looking for immediate results. also keep in mind that i did a lot of things all at once, including the installation of the ground probe (removal of DSB, removal of a lot of live rock, deep cleaning of equipment, etc.).

 

as far as what improvements i've noticed in my tank since installation of the ground probe that i can attribute directly to the ground probe? i don't know that i can name any.

 

but, a substantial part of my reasoning for installation of the ground probe was that it is, based on my understanding of the "probe vs. no probe" argument, giving your GFCI an opportunity to trip in at least one scenario where it would not otherwise trip. this might result in the tank shutting down due to the GFCI, but it won't electrocute me or cause a fire, so that's a pretty substantial plus in my mind.

 

here is what i said about this in another thread:

 

next, as far as the grounding probe is concerned, there are a lot of different opinions floating around on that. obviously, you must ALWAYS use a GFCI if you are using a ground probe (which I do). i'm not an electrician, and i don't think anyone should take my advice on the matter, but instead consult their own electrician.

 

however, and i'd be happy to hear others weigh in, my conclusion after reading competing arguments on the subject is that GFCI/ground probe together seems to give you the safest scenario for both you and your livestock because the ground probe grounds voltage that isn't supposed to be there, which creates the ground fault that causes the GFCI to trip (without the grounding probe, the GFCI won't always necessarily detect a ground fault until a ground (potentially you!) is introduced, so the risk of electrocution is still there). that's good in that it keeps the problem from shocking or electrocuting you/livestock, but it's bad in that it can result in the tank turning off without you knowing it. if you DON'T have the ground probe, YOU become the ground when you stick your hand in the tank, and that, in my opinion, is where the danger is. it's obviously not a perfect solution, but it seems to me to be the best one.

 

having said that, this article warns against using grounding probes because they actually do complete a circuit and create current in the aquarium where there otherwise may not be any. However, this same author provides an example here of where a ground probe will actually cause a GFCI trip when it otherwise wouldn't. as much as i love my fish/system, i value my house/life more, and my conclusion has been that using a ground probe is more likely to protect my house/life. so, i use one. also see this article for a discussion of ground probe use.

 

so, that's where i'm coming from there. i think the topic is certainly open for debate, though, and like i said -- i'm not an electrician, so maybe someone can offer further insight.

 

 

I understand why people use them but to me it seems a little funky. If there is a pump on the opposite side of the tank, whatever voltage it is exposing to the water would effectively drop to 0V to the grounding probe across the tank. This means there is constantly a relatively high current flowing through the water column of your display tank. This sounds like it would be absolutely terrible.

 

probes ground stray voltage. i think you are sort of making a choice between whether you want a single path of current from a voltage leak to a ground or whether you want stray voltage just everywhere in the tank. i think if the voltage is allowed to go everywhere in the tank, there is the potential for you to become the ground. that's the best argument i can think of FOR the use of a ground probe.

 

it's obviously not ideal to have current in the water, and the current would flow through any sealife that gets into the current... but i do not value the life of my fish as much or more than my own. the deal with the wife is that the safety of humans comes first, house comes second, and then we do the best we can for the fish after that.

 

again, i'm very interested in this concept, and would love to hear more opinions.

 

 

What concerns me isn't that you read 2V from the tank (with nothing on) to the ground socket in your wall, but that there appears to be different voltages when comparing the different equipment. Do you know if those readings were AC or DC readings? You mentioned it was a nice fluke 120VAC meter, but not how you measured.

 

i don't understand what you mean when you say "different voltages when comparing the different equipment" -- can you explain?

 

this is how i tested: set the fluke to the 120AC setting, stuck the black probe grounded to outlet, stuck the red probe in display tank. that's it.

 

So are you still running the probe? Did all your problems go away?

 

i am running the ground probe. all my problems have not gone away. but, they also haven't worsened (i did lose my jawfish; i have no discernible reason to think this is related, but i should at least mention it). and so, for the reasons mentioned above, i'll keep using it.

 

 

You promised pictures! Any updates on the recession from that one SPS piece?

 

i know, i lied i guess. truthfully, i'm banking on wife getting me a new camera lens for christmas (nikon 35mm f/1.8), which i am anxious to try out.

 

as far as the recession on the SPS piece goes, nothing more to report on it. hasn't worsened at all in the last few weeks, and the rest of it looks fine. so does everything else.

[d9hp]

why not? it will show you if there is any stray voltage if you do it properly.

Well the voltage isn't the issue. Stray voltage isn't what causes problems, it's potential differences across the tank that cause problems. You could go outside and hang from a 40kV power line and nothing would happen until you touched another line that wasn't also 40kV. The difference is where the issue arises. My point is that the tank is not connected to that grounded outlet until you add the probe so it seems like you're actually introducing a few problems with the probe for your livestock.

 

 

first of all, don't use a ground probe without a GFCI. that is the most important thing.

correct!

 

now, as far as immediate improvements? not really, but i think we're in the wrong hobby if we're looking for immediate results. also keep in mind that i did a lot of things all at once, including the installation of the ground probe (removal of DSB, removal of a lot of live rock, deep cleaning of equipment, etc.).

 

I forgot that you had done all of those other huge things at the same time so that's tough to pinpoint.

 

probes ground stray voltage. i think you are sort of making a choice between whether you want a single path of current from a voltage leak to a ground or whether you want stray voltage just everywhere in the tank. i think if the voltage is allowed to go everywhere in the tank, there is the potential for you to become the ground. that's the best argument i can think of FOR the use of a ground probe.

 

 

After reading through your reasoning though it sounds that you're obviously using it as a protection fault for your home and yourself when your hand is in the tank. In that case...I think I might want one now too It's certainly going to keep YOU safe in those situations.

 

it's obviously not ideal to have current in the water, and the current would flow through any sealife that gets into the current... but i do not value the life of my fish as much or more than my own. the deal with the wife is that the safety of humans comes first, house comes second, and then we do the best we can for the fish after that.

 

again, i'm very interested in this concept, and would love to hear more opinions.

Sounds like it's a reasonable deal. I believe that your grounding probe argument is rock solid and is the most sound reasoning for them I have heard, to date. I haven't really considered the inherent risk of these tanks but on second thought aquariums are a terrible terrible idea. High current lighting systems, power cords in water, sticking your hands in there every few days. Yikes!

 

i don't understand what you mean when you say "different voltages when comparing the different equipment" -- can you explain?

 

this is how i tested: set the fluke to the 120AC setting, stuck the black probe grounded to outlet, stuck the red probe in display tank. that's it.

Let's say you read 4VAC at your heater and 10VAC at the pump when they were both referenced to GROUND (house ground). That means that if you measured from the heater to the pump, you've got a 6VAC drop across the water column. This isn't a huge ordeal because AC voltage is a whole other ballgame than DC and it really isn't as much of a concern for me but it still means you have current constantly flowing between those two pieces of equipment. Now sticking both probes in the tank (IME) is going to show you all sorts of wild measurements that really aren't going to be an issue. I think sometimes we chase problems like that. The potential difference here is where the issue arises. The fact that you read 2VAC with NOTHING on in the tank simply shows that the water has a bit of a charge (it is in fact TDS: >>1000+ so there's tons and tons of ions etc.) This charge makes me think that there is a lot more going on and you could easily get different readings every single day if you did this as a regular part of maintenance.

 

 

i am running the ground probe. all my problems have not gone away. but, they also haven't worsened (i did lose my jawfish; i have no discernible reason to think this is related, but i should at least mention it). and so, for the reasons mentioned above, i'll keep using it.

 

I think the probe is a great idea now after reading a bit more on it for the purposes of personal safety ONLY. The more I think about it the more I think it's a POOR idea for the tank but a necessity for personal safety for both the human and his/her home.

 

Thanks for all the information.

 

i know, i lied i guess. truthfully, i'm banking on wife getting me a new camera lens for christmas (nikon 35mm f/1.8), which i am anxious to try out.

 

Hopefully she gets that for you because you're going to LOVE it.

 

Shot this with it last week:

 

Thanks a lot for the thorough response. I really appreciate it.

 

Looking forward to updated pictures of the tank.

[timdanger]

And now for some actual photographic updates....!

 

 

The new Hanna checker. 4 tests, 4 times reading 0.00. I don't know whether this makes me happy or sad.

 

 

 

some new shots with my new nikkor f/1.8 35mm -- love this lens. i feel like it's helping me learn, at least.

 

first

 

and then

 

and then

 

and then

 

 

 

and finally, FTS (my GSP was all retracted here - camera shy?)

[timdanger]

one more... look at that sad Red Planet (the two pieces right above the clownfish)...

 

[timdanger]

and here's kona the dog, just for good measure:

[timdanger]

Thinking about starting dosing an amino acid supplement... Elos Omega Amino Acid? Pohl's Coral Vitalizer or Pohl's Xtra?

 

I feel like these sound expensive, but I'm worried I have no nutrients to support coral coloration/growth. my growth isn't horrible, but it's not good, either, despite what i would say has been fairly respectable stability in my parameters.

 

having said that, i'm up to dosing 21ml/day of 2-part to keep up with my Ca/Alk uptake, and that's just to keep my Alk at 8dkh. That really seems excessive, but I feel like the Elos tests don't lie? Unless of course they do?

[timdanger]

amazing...

 

Bulk Reef Supply is now using my picture to advertise the NAC-3+...

 

where are my royalties?

[Rehype]

Wow that sounds like alot Tim..it seems weird your tank could be using that much daily..maybe you should check out the Hanna alkalinty checker.

 

Ive been dosing pohls extra & vitalizer and can't say I've seen any discernible changes since dosing.

 

Great pics btw everything looks good.

 

Lol you shouldn't have taken such a good shot

[timdanger]

posted this on the coral forum, but i figured i'd post here too......

 

i'm noticing some tissue loss on my ATL Ocean Blue Papillare (the pale blue frag in the right-middle of the tank, situated to the immediate left of the tall stick of green slimer). It's been in my tank for about 10 months. it's cemented in fairly direct light right under my halide. It paled out somewhat after I added it, but it proceeded to base out over a few months -- never really grown much beyond that, but it always had decent PE... until about 3-4 days ago, i noticed that it had no PE to speak of. today i noticed that some tissue has begun to slough off from some of the branches. the tissue loss is from the branch, not from the base. there is tissue loss going down toward the base, but the base is all intact.

 

one thing i should point is that, when the coral arrived at my house from AtlantisAquariums.net, it did have some tissue recession already, but that all grew back over the skeleton and it fully recovered fairly quickly, so i don't want to be too rash.

 

1) ugh.

 

2) what should i do? turn the lights off? decrease flow (the Tunze 6025 is still turned off at this time)? start going crazy with the bone cutters and try to save the base? there's really no way to frag off the pieces where tissue has receded without just chopping it down to the base.

 

one thing i should point out is that (i don't want to say randomly, because it wasn't random, but...) i added a total of about 5ml of potassium iodide (from a seachem iodine supplement) over a period of the last 4 days (so like 1.25ml/day). i wouldn't think that would be enough to cause something like this, but i figure i might as well disclose the fact.

 

another thought... so, i'm dosing 22ml/day Ca and Alk. This is maintaining my parameters at 8dkh for Alk and 400-410ppm for Ca.

 

I upped this dosing from about 16ml/day back in early December... which was upped from about 10ml/day from back in September/October (last time I was having trouble keeping Alk up).

 

I frankly tried to increase the Alk dosing from 16 to 22 to try and raise my Alk up closer to 10dkh, but I've never been able to get it higher than 8.5dkh at any point.

 

I can't imagine that it's precipitating out (i'm only dosing 3ml of Ca/Alk per hour, and I'm dosing them 30 minutes apart, alternating between Ca and Alk throughout the course of the night).

[timdanger]

some pictures of the victim -- these are just some quick shots, so forgive the off colors and lack of crisp focus -- all of these are actinic-only:

 

 

 

 

 

a couple other interesting pictures... again, actinic-only.

 

green slimer's little curly sprout -- will that thicken up, or is this the equivalent of a coral skintag?

 

this is a free blue tort frag that i've been growing for a couple months -- it was browned out and dying when i got it, but it's recovering pretty nicely. still not much color to it, but we'll see.

[Rehype]

Hey tim if it were me i would stop dosing altogether at least temporarily(for a tank your size and the amount of coral you have it just seems to me like your dosing way too much)I would try just using a higher quality salt like tropic marin pro and and stick to 5-7 gallon water changes weekly. A reefer from my club has a 30 breeder literally packed with sps(so much so they are growing on the glass) and all he does is weekly water changes. I just think you dosing and supplementing way too much...sometimes less is more.

[timdanger]

i definitely see the amount i'm dosing as an issue, but i don't really know what to do about it. when i was only dosing 10ml/day of 2-part, i was having trouble keeping my Alk stable (it would slide all around from 6.5 to 7.5-8dkh). upping the dosing to 16ml/day, it was pretty stable (7.5-8dkh). now at 22ml/day, i've been testing consistently at 8dkh (and 410ppm for Ca).

 

the only reason i haven't been more concerned about this is that, according to RHF's 2-part article, when beginning 2-part dosing, he recommends starting at 0.3ml of 2-part per gallon for a low demand reef, 0.5ml/gal for a mixed reef, and 1ml/gal for a heavy demand SPS reef. based on my estimated water volume, i'm dosing about 0.55ml/gal.

 

the only other thing is, I've been using D-D H2Ocean+ salt for at least a year, but i buy it pre-mixed from the LFS. When I've tested it, the Ca/Alk test lower than what it's supposed to (even at a specific gravity of 1.025). Thinking that this may be causing instability and requiring more dosing, I just purchased my own bucket of the salt so I could mix it myself and see if that makes a difference. i am expecting this to help. also, i calculated that i'd save about $100 over the course of the year (i was paying $1.50/gal for the pre-mixed water), which more than pays for the bucket. i'm just imagining how much i'd save if i actually bit the bullet and bought my own RODI unit.

 

just an update on the coral, it looks the same this morning. no more tissue loss. it actually is showing some very limited polyp extension, which is an improvement over "none whatsoever."

[steely185]

If you have an auto top off try adding a teaspoon of kalk per gallon of top off water. Just add it to your bucket of water that your top off feeds from and it should help keep alk and pH steady. It will help increase calcium levels as well.

 

I don't deal with dosing because it's a never ending battle and you can throw off one thing while trying to dose for another. Try quitting the two part for a while and try the kalk. You may be surprised. You can do more harm chasing numbers, stability is key.

[timdanger]

48 hours later, still no further tissue recession. seeing a tiny bit more PE than yesterday.

 

everything else still looking fine, and i'm actually even seeing some growth over the past week (i've increased feeding frequency to about half a PEmysis cube daily).

 

also, just put in another order with Bulk Reef Supply. Can't say it enough, very nice people over there. I got a great deal on a big set of upkeep stuff (a new radium and 2 ATI Blue+ T5s, test kits, 2-part, etc.) by joining up with the Group Buy going on with them.

[timdanger]

ugh, found like 100 pyramid snails on my sandbed and on two out of three of my turbo snails' shells.

 

i didn't see any on the corals -- just on the sandbed and on the snails themselves -- but is it possible that these could be responsible for my papillare's tissue recession?! i don't have any clams, and these appear to be the snail-parasite variety (based on the fact that i found about 15 on each snail shell). anyone heard of them grazing on SPS?

 

 

also, my mccosker's flasher wrasse is bringing shame upon it's wrasse name. what kind of wrasse would allow this kind of infestation? i've been looking at adding another fish or two -- looks like a six line wrasse could be forthcoming.

[timdanger]

b-mother-ry-f'ing-opsis. i am living in denial.

[Rehype]

hey tim is it a bad outbreak or just a small one? I had one as well all over one particular rock but once i started dosing vodka it took care of all my nuisance algae...although i did get cyano as a parting gift.

[d9hp]

Great photos!

 

My dog is named Kona too.

 

Crank up that Mg....kill the b word.

[timdanger]

Great photos!

 

My dog is named Kona too.

 

Crank up that Mg....kill the b word.

 

you were right about the nikkor 35mm f/1.8 -- love the lens. not a perfect macro lens obviously, but it's such a convenient utility lens.

 

i bought a Salifert Mg test -- should be arriving soon. I don't want to dose too much without keeping a close eye on it, because it's already at 1500 or so last time i checked.

 

good choice of dog name! what kind of dog?

[timdanger]

hey tim is it a bad outbreak or just a small one? I had one as well all over one particular rock but once i started dosing vodka it took care of all my nuisance algae...although i did get cyano as a parting gift.

 

the outbreak is mild at this point, and has been mild for a while. wasn't even sure it was bryopsis for a long time. but, i don't think there's anything else it could be.

 

re: vodka dosing, i'm thinking about it (have been for a while) -- more specifically, i've been thinking about vinegar, or biopellets.

 

re: cyano, i've read several places that using vinegar in addition to or entirely instead of vodka will help with cyano.

 

i was also thinking about adding microbacter7 in the alternative (or in addition).