skimmers reduce algae?

[nannodad]

Protein skimmers remove food by-product = True?

Overfeeding causes algae = true?

Therefore skimmers reduce algae ? is this true?

[supernip]

Protein skimmers remove food by-product = True?

Overfeeding causes algae = true?

Therefore skimmers reduce algae ? is this true?

 

Im going to say yes.

[skydive]

Skimmers reduce everything! Watch those SG levels if you run it wet!

[eklikewhoa]

+1

 

but knowing that you can feed more now cause you have a skimmer doesn't help.

[nannodad]

Not wanting to feed more just want to cut down on the algae.

[WindCloudWRX]

I believe cutting down on Algae deals w/ phosphates, organic load, and nitrate, etc.

 

Water changes will help, and a skimmer cannot hurt, if help the tank.

[bdare]

A skimmer removes all the dissolved organics that will eventually turn into nitrate and phosphate. What kind of tank are you running? If you have a sump you could also consider adding a phosban reactor with some phosban and carbon.

[cmgreenone]

Protein skimmers remove food by-product = True?

Overfeeding causes algae = true?

Therefore skimmers reduce algae ? is this true?

1. True. Skimmers use bubbles to release the dissolved organic compounds (food, fish waste) that become trapped within the water molecules.

2. True. The uneaten food will enter the nitrification process and end up as nitrates. The fish waste will become ammonia and enter the same process. The skimmer removes the DOC before it can enter the process, thus reducing the total nitrates by limiting or reducing further production.

3. True. But, water changes and reduced feeding plays a role in this as well. The skimmer also adds oxygen to the water.

 

There are several methods of skimming. There are several manufacturers as well. Just remember, you get what you pay for.

[bdare]

1. True. Skimmers use bubbles to release the dissolved organic compounds (food, fish waste) that become trapped within the water molecules.

 

Just cause I'm anal and picky....

 

The DOCs are not trapped within the water molecules. They are attached to the surface of the bubble which is why contact time is so important with regards to skimmer effeciency. This is also why when you look at the bubbles of skimmate in light you can see "rainbows" and the bubbles appear green.

 

[cmgreenone]

Just cause I'm anal and picky....

 

The DOCs are not trapped within the water molecules. They are attached to the surface of the bubble which is why contact time is so important with regards to skimmer effeciency. This is also why when you look at the bubbles of skimmate in light you can see "rainbows" and the bubbles appear green.

 

and your are also wrong.

So where do you think the doc that are stuck on the bubbles come from? They have already been released from in between the molecules by the force of the bubbles. The molecules are connected in a web like structure. The DOC are inside the web. The Micro bubbles smash these apart and release the DOCs.

 

This is why skimmers add oxygen. Polluted water has less Oxygen...because in the volume of the water, the DOCs will take up space. Get rid of the DOCs in the water, and now you have more room for more oxygen.

Where do the docs reside? Within the molecule webs.

[bdare]

and your are also wrong.

So where do you think the doc that are stuck on the bubbles come from? They have already been released from in between the molecules by the force of the bubbles. The molecules are connected in a web like structure. The DOC are inside the web. The Micro bubbles smash these apart and release the DOCs.

 

This is why skimmers add oxygen. Polluted water has less Oxygen...because in the volume of the water, the DOCs will take up space. Get rid of the DOCs in the water, and now you have more room for more oxygen.

Where do the docs reside? Within the molecule webs.

 

Please read. I think you will be enlightend.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

 

Here's an excerpt for your entertainment.

"So as newly created air bubbles are exposed to aquarium water, their surfaces collect organic molecules."

[cmgreenone]

thanks for that. So ..."So as newly created air bubbles are exposed to aquarium water, their surfaces collect organic molecules."

 

Their surfaces collect organic molecules from where? Are these not inside the molecule webs?

[bdare]

thanks for that. So ..."So as newly created air bubbles are exposed to aquarium water, their surfaces collect organic molecules."

 

Their surfaces collect organic molecules from where? Are these not inside the molecule webs?

 

Obviously they collect them from the water column... not the molecules. The webs refer to the web of bubbles that is pushed to the top of the collection cup where the bubbles burst releasing the DOCs contained on the surface of the bubble.

 

I'm not sure where the sticking point is for you?

 

Perhaps I misunderstood your orginial statement... "Skimmers use bubbles to release the dissolved organic compounds (food, fish waste) that become trapped within the water molecules."

 

Are you talking about in the tank or in the skimmer? The DOCS are in the water colum in the tank not the molecules. The water molecule in the tank is still H2O. When the DOCS from the water colum come in contact with the bubbles in the skimmer it attaches to the surface of the bubble.

 

In any case... we've now hijacked this thread. I think we both agree that skimmers can help reduce algae

[cmgreenone]

Sorry...i think it was my wording. I know the molecule is still H2O. I guess water column is what I was trying to say. Sorry original poster for the hijax

[nanoskim]

Please read. I think you will be enlightend.

 

 

bdare,

 

You are to be commended for your professional correction and attitude.

 

Truth is a wonderful thing.... one must be dilligent in finding and sharing it!

 

This hobby would be huge if everyone took the time to educate themselves om the fundamentals before spending a dime.

 

Then statements like " just do water changes", " I live in california and do not need a heater ", " do I really need a skimmer? ", " how do I get my water clear " etc. etc. would never see the light of day.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

 

Here's an excerpt for your entertainment.

"So as newly created air bubbles are exposed to aquarium water, their surfaces collect organic molecules."

[bdare]

Awww... thanks

[iglowce]

in short, if you are going to make an investment in your reef tank, i say 1st skimmer, 2nd light, and 3rd chiller. then you're set.. skimmer does wonder and those who own one know!

[stanlalee]

. They are attached to the surface of the bubble which is why contact time is so important with regards to skimmer effeciency

 

I dont know a thing about the chemistry that attaches organics to small bubbles but I do know that statement is a direct contradiction to what Deltec, Tunze, ATI and most high end skimmers claim. They claim with adequate air and small bubble size contact time isn't very important at all and can even be counterproductive if the bubbles spend too much time in the column of water. they claim the ones that depend on high contact time are the ones that arent efficient to begin with.

[bdare]

I have an Octopus skimmer which I'm pretty sure would fall into the "high end" scale. If you notice a lot of high end skimmers have bubble diffuser plates which sole purpose is to increase contact time. Did you read the article I posted?

 

Here's another quote by RHF:

 

Allowing Time for Absorption

 

Once the skimmer has generated a large amount of surface area, the next issue involves allowing enough time for organics to actually diffuse to the interface. How long does this take? That's an important question without a perfect answer. Diffusion of molecules in water can be slow. For very large molecules, like proteins and carbohydrates, it can be very slow. It might take hours for a protein to diffuse a few inches in water. Fortunately, we do not need to rely on pure random diffusion to carry organics to the surface. Nearly all skimmers have bubbles in a turbulent environment, where they can be carried around by water flow as well as by diffusion. As they approach the bubble surface, however, movement of water relative to the bubble will be greatly reduced, and diffusion will be necessary for the final travel to the interface. The amount of time necessary for complete accumulation of organics at the surface will also depend upon the concentrations of organics in the water, and even on the chemical nature of the organics present. It makes perfect sense that in water with high levels of organics, the interfacial area will be rapidly occupied by organics. That is because there are enough in the local area around the bubble to saturate the interface. When the concentrations are lower, organics have to diffuse from farther and farther away from the bubble to saturate it. Additionally, different organics have different strengths of binding to the air/water interface. Things which have a strong preference will slowly replace those already at the interface which have a lower binding strength. Thus, a bubble which is completely occupied with organics might still be changing with time on exposure to tank water. It will not, however, go on increasing its organic load indefinitely. For these reasons, one cannot readily state that a certain amount of time is necessary for organics to fully saturate bubbles. Further, it is incorrect to claim that it is always better to increase the contact time between bubbles and the tank water. Likewise, the way in which the bubbles move relative to the water is important. If the bubbles are moving against the water flow, or are in a turbulent environment, the required absorption time will be lower (because the water flow helps bring organics to the interface) than if the bubbles are moving with the water flow.

[stanlalee]

I have an Octopus skimmer which I'm pretty sure would fall into the "high end" scale. If you notice a lot of high end skimmers have bubble diffuser plates which sole purpose is to increase contact time. Did you read the article I posted?

 

different companies/people have different theories, thinking and making things work. most low and mid class skimmers do rely on, boast about and make huge skimmers to utilize contact time. I'm just telling you Tunze, Deltec, ATI and high end skimmers dont. they make their skimmers as short as possible and the size is there to handle the ridiculous amount of air being drawn (from being pumped straight out the skimmer output) not for contact time.

 

Octopus dont fall anywhere near the high end scale. they are budget clones of high end needle wheel skimmers as are AquaEuro and ASM. the Pro and MSX are starting to use the same pumps as the high end skimmers (different wheels, each company uses their own designed pinwheel or meshwheel ect) and arent really that inexpensive except compared to the skimmers they cloned but a like size deltec or ATI cost ruffly 4-5x the cost of a standard (non pro or MSX) octopus needle wheel and draws four times the air (often more. stock NW200 pulls 10scfh of air, a large ATI or deltec pull in the 35-50scfh of air unmodified ). my octopus has the bubble plate. bubble plates are used to reduce turbulence in the skimmer body past the plate not to increase contract time. the bubble plate is a hand me down from ATI, bubble king and other high end skimmers that have been using them for years.the only thing I got from the article are there are lots of variable to deteremine whether the bubbles will become saturated quickly or not with organics. Nowhere did it say high contact time is a neccessary variable. It even said under some conditions they will bond very quickly.

 

this is a $1600 bubble king. it is only 22" tall. does not rely on contact time which is painfully obvious just looking at it. it pulls 2000lph of air (at a 2:1 water to air ratio) and it rated to handle anywhere from 150-700gallons depending on load. uses only 45 watts. the bubble plate is there because the skimmer is short and the pump is powerful. there is no space to travel for turbulence to be reduced on its own

[bdare]

You are right about the bubble plate. My bad. There are obviously other variables involved and the size and number of the bubbles will definitely improve performance. The smaller the bubbles the more surface area thus the less contact time needed for equal performance. I just don't see how you can say contact time isn't important. Don't just quote other skimmer manufactures... rather give me something to chew on.

 

Octopus skimmers aren't high end? Why? Cause they don't cost $400? I'll put my Octopus skimmer up against a Tunze any day. ATI and Deltec on the other hand... I'll walk away slowly...

[johnmaloney]

your logic is correct sir

[stanlalee]

I just don't see how you can say contact time isn't important. Don't just quote other skimmer manufactures... rather give me something to chew on.

 

Octopus skimmers aren't high end? Why? Cause they don't cost $400? I'll put my Octopus skimmer up against a Tunze any day. ATI and Deltec on the other hand... I'll walk away slowly...

 

 

I stated from the very beginning I have no clue why but that is what the high end manufacturers claim.

 

The main difference between a high end needle wheel and low end needle wheel are the pumps. regular octopus pumps arent high end plain and simple. the pumps tunze, ATI, Deltec and now Octopus them selves are using on the pro and extreme simply draw way more air, use less wattage and are more reliable. the octopus pumps initially where just Ocean Runner clones from the turboflotors which are middling not high end pumps to begin with. since then their updates have made the pumps WORSE (smaller wheels, less air). the octopus bodies themselves are pretty good. I have an octopus and they are great skimmers for the money but the pumps have to be modified or replaced to perform like the big boys. they are more than adequate as is though. you have to admitt the small details like the crappy venturi are the small details lacking you dont find lacking on a Euroreef which I would classify as just above the octopus/asm/aquaeuro's and well below the bubble kings, Octo pro's, ATIs and reeflos's ect.

 

you might put your octopus up again a Tunze DOC which are overpriced, built flimsy and average performing but your octopus doesn't stand a chance against the high end tunze skimmers I was really speaking of the MASTER DOCs (note the zillion 800lph of air draw each pumps and still short skimmer height):

[bdare]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...mp;pagenumber=1

 

I will say you definitely seem to know your stuff about skimmers and when I have a question in the future I'll definitely hit you up!

[chuckfullservice]

A skimmer will help with algae control but its not the end all ! I would recomend using macro algae it will out compete most other algaes that use the same food source! I.E. phosphates...

If your still having algae problems 1. always always keep up on your water changes 2. reduce photo period

3. feed your tank less .

Having a skimmer and some macro algae will afford you less over all maintenance.

I almost never have any kind of algae growth in my tank. When I do see some starting I know I have neglected my duties !!!