Deep Sand Beds in Nano Reef tanks?

[Frequency]

I recently Purchased Paragon Live Sand from a Home Depot in Southern California. Anyone have any experience with this sand or know if it is aquarium safe? I don't know where to buy the southdown white sand if you live in southern cali area let me know It was 5 bucks So I got it anyways...

 

Ok my real question. How many Nano-Reefers have deep sand beds (sand beds 4" + deep)? I have about 20 pounds of live sand in my aquarium and I am thinking about making my sand bed 4 to 6 inches thick. I read an intresting article by Dr. Ron over at reef-centeral. The article details many good aspects of URL=http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm] DSB[/url] in reefs.

 

 

 

The surface area for bacteria and microalgae in live rock or on other surfaces is insignificant compared to the area in a sand bed four or more inches in depth.

 

The breakdown of nitrogen compounds to nitrogen gas is done by bacteria growing in the areas of lowered oxygen concentration in the deeper parts of the sediments. At normal reef temperatures, around 82 deg F, some bacterial species will double their population in less than a half hour if they have the appropriate nutrients. This rapid bacterial growth rate causes the release of nitrogen gas which becomes visible as bubbles in the sediments

 

If both of these statements hold water then that would be a great asset to our nano-reefs. It might mean that when the tank becomes unblanced, the bacteria will grow within (1/2) hour which would be amazing to deal with the spike in the tank.

 

In my reading i also came across two problems with DSB.

 

One:

The only real problem with a sand bed is the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna

 

two:

After a few years Live Rock and DSB may need to be replace due to build up of toixic heavy metals in tanks. This is caused by the use of heavy metal salt mixes and could acutally be avoided by use of natrual sea water.

 

 

Anyone had any luck with this? How often do you change your water? If you have recently added it, has it improved your water condtions (I.E. do you have to change your water less frequently)?

[changhsu]

Just nitpicking, you might have made a typo, afaik, HD doesn't sell LS, I think you meant Paragon playsand.

 

You can read about people's experience with this sand on RC, by searching for "paragon."

 

As to the GDD (Great DSB Debate), you can also read all about it here or at RC. Some of the threads are hundreds of posts long.

 

BTW, the depth of a DSB is just one factor.

 

DSB is just the current pre-dominant trend based on our current limited understanding of reefing.

[dreamweaver_gcotb]

Depending on the size of your tank, a DSB like that would take up half the volume of the tank.

[EdgeKrusher]

Frequency,

I have a 4" DSB and I can't complain. Though I did by my sand from the LFS, it's Aragonite LS, not the grainy playsand. It's old peices of crushed coral and shells. This is what I was told to get, and what I did alot of reading about. Not sure why you went and bought cilica based sand, that's not good for the tank. You might want to do some more research on Reef Central before you dump that in, unless it's too late.

 

I still do weekly water changes.

 

Peace

 

Edge

[jdsabin1]

A DSB in a nano is a complete waste of time. I don't have time to get into it right now but will pop back on here later to explain. Basically there is not enough surface area in a nano to give you any of the benefits a DSB supposedly offers.

[Frequency]

I did make a typo and I will be reading more on it at reef central. Paragon sand seems to be the wrong stuff, i tried the good ole vinegar test and no fizz. It's not added to any tanks so its not a big deal.

 

The DSB will take up a large amount of space in my 18 gallon. It takes up well 4 inches from the 18 1/2 inches of hieight available in the tank. I read that its really important to have the correct particle size for the DSB to work correctly, you might want to read a some info on it since you used curshed coral EdgeKrusher.

 

As far as not being enough surface area, I can't see how it would make a diffrence in a nano or a larger tank. If it benfits a larger tank you might be under the impression that it would scale down to our nano's. But there might be something inherent about the nature of DSBs. I look forward to your post .

[jdsabin1]

There needs to be much more open sand space for denitrification to take place on a consistent level, although you do get some small bubbles rising from the sandbed indicating denitrification, but it's simply not enough to matter.

 

For a DSB to work properly you need at least 3+ inches and a lot of open sand space where there's no rock or coral and what happens is, there are bacteria living deep in the sandbed where the oxygen levels are 1ppm or less and this bacteria uses nitrate as a food source and turns it into nitrogen gas and it just dissipates out of the aquarium, those are the bubbles I mentioned above coming out of the sandbed.

 

Aside from that, a DSB in a nano kills a ton of real estate. Space is at a PREMIUM in a small reef tank and why waste it looking at a deep layer of brown sand?

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Frequency]

I understand everything except why there is a need for open space where no corals or rock sit atop (need to re-read the article). As far as losing relestate, that is a major drag. My tank is 18 1/2 inches tall which is why I'm more willing to sacrafice it for a reduction of nitrates

[surfy]

This is an ongoing debate with aquarists. I believe that a deep sand bed in a nano will work as long as it's deep enough to allow denitrification to take place. That also depends on the sand grain size you are using. If you use oolitic sand then 3" should be good maybe even 2".

You also need an established community of sand sifters to help out with the whole working environment.

Saying a DSB dosn't work in a nano is like saying the live rock dosn't do anything eather.

It's just all scaled down in size.

I havn't had any big nitrate problems in my nanos and I use DSB's. So it's all up to you if you want to have one or not.

Plus I like the way a DSB looks in my tanks, it makes it look more natural.

This is all JMO though.

[jdsabin1]

Interesting reading that I strongly suggest you check out:

 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...558#post1656558

 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...threadid=210605

 

Bottom line - DSB's are slowly losing favor with good reason.

[Frequency]

From my reading, there are three main points about DSBs.

 

[*]DSBs are a realized form of nitrate export

[*]DSBs are successful in the short term

[*]DSBs have a high rate of failure after 3 years

[/list=1]

 

There were two main causes of DSB failure or "Old Tank Syndrome".

 

[*]Accumulation of toxic heavy metals

[*]DSBs become saturated in nutrients.

[/list=1]

 

Both of these problems have theorized solutions. One being the use of low metal sea mixes and or NSW. The second that DSBs need to be recharged because of

 

 

the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna.

 

Dr. Ron himself still believes that

se of a low metal salt should prevent all of this, of course. Under those conditions, I don't see any reason why a sand bed should not be functional indefinitely.

 

 

In my uneducated observations I do not think that the ocean has as large a bio-load per fish as we do in our tanks. There is a larger ratio of algae/sand per fish/waste producer in the ocean then there is in our tanks. DSBs may bring us closer to that ratio and make reef keeping more successful and rewarding. It's unfortunate that some people have had "Tank Crashes" due to the DSBs, at the same time it would be naive to think that the DSB was the sole factor in a tank crash.

 

 

With the risk known, I think I will try it.

If I can ever find that elusive Southdown…

[jdsabin1]

Keep us informed!

[onthefly]

Frequency - First off, you can't get SouthDown/Yard Right off the East Coast. If you want that, you'll have to pony up and ship it in for some $$$.

 

Secondly, The "no fizz" test......the sand you got at HD was proly silca based.....only Calcium carbonate based sands will fizz. I'm a fan of silica, many are not. Like the DSB debate, you'll see how heated the silca vs aragonite debate is once you search for it. If you get your sand from HD or Lowes...Ask them to see the MSDS on the product. The one thing you want to see in the chemical make up. You want either >99.5% SiO2 (pure silica) or >99.5% Ca(CO3)2 Calcium carbonate.....VERY IMPORTANT - no felspar or limestone contaminants!!! They contain lots of silicates....bad for the tank!

 

Thirdly, I have had a DSB/plenum up and running in my 45 for 5 years! No crashes, no algae, no nothing! It is a FOWLR that I feed pretty heavily. Trates are consistently under 10ppm. Tons of life in the sand, but I have never seen bubble "1" come up from it or on the sand/glass interface. That tank has the 1-2mm sized sand. My newest baby...my 5.5ga nano I set up 1 month ago, was set up with oolitic SILICA sand (very fine, like southdown) at a depth of 2.5 inches (seeded with a cup of sand from my 45 and coral vital-LSB ). Within the first 10 days, I started noticing alot of bubbles rising from the sand and on the glass. I cycled with ammonium bicarb, so the amount of NH3 I put in the tank was huge!!!! I have never registered NO3...EVER! Still at zero today. No hair algae, a brief (2 day) dusting of diatoms. Denitrification works, DSB's work, and can work in a nano! Oolic (silca) sand can denitrify in half the depth as normal sand....that's what caribsea says on their product and IME.

 

Jdsabin1 is a long time poster on this board....he's giving you his $.02, as am I. I'm not bashing him, just saying.....research it and make your choice! You'll find 2 sides to every story.

 

HTH

[Frequency]

Onthefly I have a few questions for yah .

 

1. What is Oolic Silca Sand?

2. Is it available on the west coast?

3. What is ammonium bicarb?

4. What type of sea salt mix do you use or do u usse NSW?

5. Do you add any additives to your tank?

7. Have you ever purchased and added a recharge kit for your sand?

8. Has your tank displayed any symptons of Old tank Syndrome?

9. Any other suggestions you have for keeping your sandbed healthy?

10. What other forms of filtration do you have? Sump, powerheads etc.

11. How often do you change your water?

12. What is your bio load like? how many fish per gallon?

13. How many pounds of live rock do you have?

 

Sorry for all the questions hehe

[surfy]

1. Oolitic sand is very fine almost powder like sand.

2. Yes it is available on the west coast, do some searches on the net you should find local dealers that sell it.

3. Ammonium bicarb, ? not too sure on that one

4. Salt, Coral Life and Reef Crystals

5. B-ionic

7. No, The live rock will usually have alot of critters and bacteria on it to seed and populate the sand.

8. No, I'm not sure how long that would take or if it will ever happen. I have had a 35g going for 2 years with no problems except for macro algae blooms.

9. I have a starfish ( not sure what kind) and a diamond goby in the 35g to clean and stir the top layer. Plus alot of pods and worms. I don't trust crabs so I don't keep any.

10. HOB Penguin 330 filter (biowheels removed, my choice) with mangrove plants in 35g, Soon to be sump to hide all the clutter in the tank,Aqua Clear 300 on 7g, Protein skimmer (1 picolo in 7 and Seaclone 100 in 35), Power head's (2 in 35 and 1 in 7g) DSB and live rock in both.

11. 10% once a week

12. 7g 1 fish, 35g 5 fish

13. 7g 10-20 pounds, 35g 35-60 pounds

14. Finally done

[onthefly]

Exhale! Ok....Go!

 

1) Surfy hit that one right on.........look up Caribsea online and you get some good descriptions are far a particle size.

2) Oolic sand (either Silica or Aragonite) is availble on the west coast, just search around..online and LFS

3)Rather than adding dead shrimp or stuff like that to kick off the cycle...I added what the bacteria want......NH4 (ammonium) Bicarbonte is just the counter ion....I could have also added Ammonium Chloride....worked like a charm and no dead smell and no algae bloom

4)When I live in So Cal I use NSW, but since moving to Portland I have been banished to making my own. I just finished off my bag of Rea Sea......and will go with IO next time.

5)45ga...just Superbuffer KdH

nano...Sechem Reef Complete, Reef plus, Kalk, Superbuffer KdH

6)What no six? ?

7)Nope and never heard of it....like I said 5 years...no problems!

8 )Not one!

9)Like Surfy...I use a Banded Goby (AKA Dragon Goby) to keep the sand stirred, and a blenny for algae control in my 45ga......Nassarius snails in my nano

10)I have a skimmer with a Rio 800, 2x Fluval 203 (just the cannisters no media)

11)Last time for my 45 was 2 years ago *cough* and every couple of weeks with my nano

12) no fish in the nano.........Big Clarkii,Small Perc, Big Flame Hawk, Big Goby, Med blenny.....but I feed everyday..so pretty heavy load

13)8lbs in the nano, 60lbs of LR and cured lava in my 45ga

 

Whew.....HTH

[Frequency]

Thanks for all the info, I look forward to trying the DSB thing out, I hope my nitrates drop . Thanks again for taking the time to anwser all my questions, saving them to file right now lol.

[seabass]

You don’t need a DSB to keep your nitrates low. Water changes alone can lower and keep nitrates in check. However, a skimmer can lower nitrates too. Also don’t overcrowd or overfeed; that will help a bunch.

 

DSBs work, but I personally think they increase the risk of releasing toxins back into your tank. I consider them a tool for more experienced aquarists, not beginners.

 

I recommend that you keep your sand bed between one to two inches and get some critters to help oxygenate the upper layers (like Blue Leg hermits, Scarlet Reef hermits, Cerith snails, and Nassarius snails).

[jdsabin1]

Took you long enough to get in this thread seabass.

[Chupacabras]

Oolite is a great DSB scam... around two inches of substrate and all the bennies of a DSB. This tank will be broken down in around a year so I'm not too worried about any buildups.

 

Still a pretty new tank (note the algae) but that big hump was level a week ago, nothing but nitrogen gas buildup.

[HiRes60]

where can u pick up ammonium bicarbonate?

[Frequency]

neat chupa, So your nitrates are low and ur using Oolite?

[Chupacabras]

Tank's still getting used to a new pair of clowns... trates jumped to 10 but are now about five. Probably be another week before it gets back to normal since those clowns are MESSY... hopefully the trates will zero out.

 

Tank is just a 20L with 40lbs. of Oolite, that gives me an average bed size of about two inches. Watch your power head placement, this stuff will float for hours if you have good water flow.

[onthefly]

Amen to that Chupa!

 

Instant snow storm if your PH falls or your clown farts!

 

Any chemistry lab will have ammonium bicarb......like I said, ammonium chloride will work great too. You could try Sigma-aldrich (look for their website online) or Fisher Scientific...I don't either compound is "blacklisted" list some compounds (i.e. Ammonium Nitrate.....people make bombs with it!).

[HiRes60]

thanks, i'll look out for those other compounds