Dosing Vodka

[Mr. Fosi]

Methanol is also called "wood alcohol". I have some that I bought off of a friend who runs a reagent business but I don't use it in my tank. I tried it as a fuel in a couple backpacking stoves and it was too volatile and put out too few BTUs to be viable.

 

I am a big fan of acetate. I have seen plenty of microbiological media that uses acetate as a carbon source but I have never seen one that uses EtOH or methanol.

[davidr2340]

Mr. Fosi IS BACK!!!

[BKtomodachi]

Come to think of it, we use lots of things from microbiology.

 

Again anyone?

Methylene blue?

lol

[Mr. Fosi]

Can I interest you in some yummy beef-extract agar BK?

[fierceseaman]

Methanol is also called "wood alcohol". I have some that I bought off of a friend who runs a reagent business but I don't use it in my tank. I tried it as a fuel in a couple backpacking stoves and it was too volatile and put out too few BTUs to be viable.

 

I am a big fan of acetate. I have seen plenty of microbiological media that uses acetate as a carbon source but I have never seen one that uses EtOH or methanol.

 

 

I have used acetate method that you described in another thread to rid my tank of dinoflagellates but it seems like the vodka method is easier to use long term. I hate having to mix up kalk, let it sit, decate, and vinegar while stirring and metering with a PH pen and I always end up over shooting. Plus, my vinegar/kalk mix seems much harder to add than a quick dose of a few mL of vodka. I wish it was easier to dose with vinegar cause it definitely works, it just seems like a lot of trouble.

[nano4brains]

i have dosed sugar for years, it works great for P04 & N03 reduction.

1/5 tsp per 100G once a week. disolved in tank water and slowly dispersed in a high flow area away from any inhabitants. (preferably a sump, if ya' have one)

i use about 70-100 granules in a 25G and P04 is @ 0.0, N03 never above 2.

 

anytime ive vodka dosed, it leaves a slight film on the glass the next morning...

[lakshwadeep]

nano4brains: Have you checked to see if there is any real difference between dosing and not dosing sugar? It would seem that 1/5 of a teaspoon is insignificant for a 100 gallon.

[fierceseaman]

i have dosed sugar for years, it works great for P04 & N03 reduction.

1/5 tsp per 100G once a week. disolved in tank water and slowly dispersed in a high flow area away from any inhabitants. (preferably a sump, if ya' have one)

i use about 70-100 granules in a 25G and P04 is @ 0.0, N03 never above 2.

 

anytime ive vodka dosed, it leaves a slight film on the glass the next morning...

 

 

Wouldn't the film be the bacteria you are attempting to promote to grow. This would be a good thing...

[Mr. Fosi]

Wouldn't the film be the bacteria you are attempting to promote to grow. This would be a good thing...

 

Could be.

 

Sugar is another good DOC source, IMO. Simple sugars would be best, I think.

 

My rule of thumb has been: "If I seen it used to grow marine bacteria in the lab, it will probably work in my tank."

 

I'd like to see some research on the methanol method. I understand the argument for why it might work but it'd have to work a lot better than acetate, EtOH or sugar before I'd go to the trouble to use it. My guess is that any of these DOC sources will be "good enough" and to question which is the "best" is probably meaningless.

[BKtomodachi]

I made some mannitol salt plates yesterday. They looked tasty.

[fierceseaman]

Mr. Fosi, any comment on my previous post in this thread about how to dose acetate easier than a kalk/vinegar mix?

[Mr. Fosi]

You can just add the vinegar without the kalk.

 

Originally, kalk+vinegar was developed because some people wanted to get more Ca/alk into their tank without blowing up their pH. This is what I was using it for and since I have traditionally used salt mixes that are low in Ca/alk it was a boon for me.

 

The bummer about adding straight vinegar is that you are adding something that isn't pH neutral or, more preferably, slightly alkaline. You wouldn't be able to do it for high doses for very long because you would build up a preponderance of H⁺ ion. There is a possibility that you might be able to mitigate this since a bunch of photosynthesis is going on in the tank but I'm not sure if it would work out long-term.

 

If you want to use vinegar instead of finding yourself some plain acetate, you are best served by adding in combination with kalk since kalk is a balanced Ca/alk additive.

 

As I said in my last post, since most of these DOC sources appear to work just fine, questions about which is "best" are fairly meaningless unless you have other specific needs. If you just want to add some DOC, add sugar or a simple alcohol. If you want DOC + Ca/alk add the vinegar kalk mix.

 

What you add will likely be governed by convenience and there is nothing about this issue that suggests that that convenience is a bad thing.

[fierceseaman]

Excellent. You cleared a ton of things up, thanks for the help.

[hazmat]

Could be.

 

Sugar is another good DOC source, IMO. Simple sugars would be best, I think.

 

My rule of thumb has been: "If I seen it used to grow marine bacteria in the lab, it will probably work in my tank."

 

I'd like to see some research on the methanol method. I understand the argument for why it might work but it'd have to work a lot better than acetate, EtOH or sugar before I'd go to the trouble to use it. My guess is that any of these DOC sources will be "good enough" and to question which is the "best" is probably meaningless.

 

Which is exactly what I was saying in my previous post.....that because one DOC has "one less carbon in the chain" doesn't mean it's going to be that much better than another. In the scheme of things they are serving the purpose of getting the bacteria to grow. So then the issue becomes what is easy to get, has proven results, data that we can review/read, otherwise "user" friendly for the everyday "joe" Nano reefer.

 

Thanks for stopping by Mr. Fosi and giving us your expertise!! It's always good to have an expert on hand to give us the real story! And you would never call us "clueless nOObs" would you?

[Mr. Fosi]

And you would never call us "clueless nOObs" would you?

 

I'll leave that to MrA, he's better at it than me.

[BKtomodachi]

Which is exactly what I was saying in my previous post.....that because one DOC has "one less carbon in the chain" doesn't mean it's going to be that much better than another.

While agree that if the sugar method works go ahead and use it...

 

Using methanol could be significantly more effective than ethanol. I only have a few weeks of microbiology under my belt, and we are studying nitrification. But we don't go into the depth of detail in the biochemical processes that I'm sure Mr.A does. So I would generally refer to him on the issue.

[hazmat]

While agree that if the sugar method works go ahead and use it...

 

Using methanol could be significantly more effective than ethanol. I only have a few weeks of microbiology under my belt, and we are studying nitrification. But we don't go into the depth of detail in the biochemical processes that I'm sure Mr.A does. So I would generally refer to him on the issue.

 

What does Mr.A have his degree in?

[BKtomodachi]

What does Mr.A have his degree in?

Well I'm not sure. But he is a professor of microbiology. I would assume its in micro then.

[hazmat]

OK, at least it's not...like....chemical engineering or something

 

I know what Mr. Fosi's expertise is in. I'd go to him in a heartbeat for any issues with my tank. He is the one that diagnosed that I had Raphidophytes in my tank. And has helped me combat them!

 

Thank you Mr. Fosi!!!!

[MrAnderson]

my view is that the reef literature method of manipulating bacterial growth using something like vodka is noobish. i apologize if my animosity towards a primitive hobby bastardization of a common and well-established wastewater industry denitrification method has spilled over into those who unassumingly employ these methods based on articles written by those purporting to be experts in the field, i.e. "BAWWWW I'M SOWWY!!!". simply put, many "reef expert" articles are technically incorrect and/or naive about the details of marine microbiology and the kinetics of microbial metabolism.

 

methanol is the standard industry reagent for wastewater denitrification. furthermore, if i put biotech reagent-grade methanol (lol @ "benzene"), i know that what's going in is pure, as opposed to "vodka" which has god knows what other crap in there. while vodka has worked for many, it's a sloppy approach imo and people get varied results because not all vodkas, even lots of the same brand, will not be of uniform composition. i've heard of algae outbreaks both being cured and caused by vodka dosing for example. vodka is a fairly non-scientific approach imo.

 

the problem i have with acetate is that it's considered junk-food for bacteria. it enables bacteria to skip initial metabolic steps of glycolysis, and grow with little effort. for this reason it is used in microbiological media, because in culture maximal growth is the goal. however growth like that in a closed ecosystem is risky. conversely, in a closed ecosystem controlled and balanced growth is the goal. this is why many people see massive snot-string outbreaks when using vinegar in kalk; basically all bacteria gets a dose of junk food and expands at a very high rate.

 

also, adding acetate will disrupt sulfur equilibrium of water column and possibly perturb sulfur reducing denitrifiers. this happens because the bacteria need to form thiol bonds to link acetate to acetyl coenzyme A for the acetate to enter the TCA cycle. a bolus of acetate entering the water column will require rapid stoichiometric consumption of sulfur in order to be utilized. imo spikes and troughs aren't generally characteristic of stable water chemistry and undesirable.

 

anyhow, whatever n00bs. carry on. i'll check this thread in another week or two.

[Seiryoku]

You forgot to say good day!

 

*runs and hides*

 

(I actually learned quite a bit reading this thread, thanks to all contributing to it)

[skydive]

Hey "expert" what isle is biotech reagent-grade methanol on?

[Mr. Fosi]

"BAWWWW I'M SOWWY!!!".

 

Good post overall but it doesn't really change the fact that most people don't have ready access to methanol.

[MrAnderson]

Hey "expert" what isle is biotech reagent-grade methanol on?

 

on the internet aisle n00b

 

lol it's not much more than any other reef additive.

 

http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUC...mp;fromSearch=Y

[Mr. Fosi]

Liar! You said you'd be back in a week!

 

$27/L isn't too bad considering what people pay for other additives but I think I'll prolly stick with using acetate or sugar when I need it... Unless of course, I get into waste water treatment.