Any non-photosynthetic nanos here?

[non-photosynt]

Does anybody keep non-photosynthetic corals or fine filter feeders dominated nano tanks?

Share experience please.

 

Everything, but I'm particularly interested in full tank shots (to see corals placement in relation to the flow), amount of food and how frequently it is given, and filtration, able to process all of this.

Are you using probiotics or no, what cleanup crew do you have and is it causes any troubles.

 

Thanks.

[mrfipp]

Does anybody keep non-photosynthetic corals or fine filter feeders dominated nano tanks?

Share experience please.

 

Everything, but I'm particularly interested in full tank shots (to see corals placement in relation to the flow), amount of food and how frequently it is given, and filtration, able to process all of this.

Are you using probiotics or no, what cleanup crew do you have and is it causes any troubles.

 

Thanks.

 

Im actually really looking forward to your tank getting set up. I love that what you intend to do is not the norm. I think you will find it incredibly rewarding to pull off such a tank succesfully, and I think the majority of us will find it interesting. Please don't give up on this concept just due to lack of response, or experience from us.

[non-photosynt]

I'm actually, trying to reach other nano-keepers, who has/had non-photosynthetic corals or fine filter feeders (like feather stars, filter feeder cucumbers, Christmas tree worms, scallops, sponges), to know how the others solve the common problems. There is always a chance to pick up a really bright idea.

 

What I tried:

6g Nano-Cube, LR instead of sponge in back chambers. Sometime filter floss for a night:

Didn't work:

Big colony of the sun coral can't be fed on the branching rock with such filtration: the food was lost in unreachable places. You know the consequences.

Chili coral (IMHE) should be fed much more frequently, uneaten food should be either processes by other kinds of inhabitants, or be removed by mechanical filtration and skimming or water changes.

Red horn bryozoans: hair algae and microalgae is not their best friend, and without sufficient filtration it will come.

Orange tree sponge: mmm, never clean it by toothbrush from red slime.

 

Very soon the sun coral was removed to a 3/4g (3l) pico:

where it was for ~4 months and spawned with larvae settled and surviving the first time. Note, that this Tubastrea was in prime condition from the beginning and continue spawning even now, more than 2 yrs later. Old posts: Why my chili coral reminds me sun coral? and Sun coral reproduction.

This tank was set next and slightly below the Nano-cube, whate ras changes close to 100% twice a week, using aged water from NC. NC had benefit of more frequent small water changes. Pico was fed twice a week, with water change afterward. Only some filter floss as a filtration between feedings, without even biomedia.

Worked well, but I tired from scheduled water changes and progressively kept forgetting, when it is time to feed. Moved sun to 90g tank, where one more coral makes no difference.

 

Nano-Cube got gorgonian (Diodogorgia nodulifera):

that was fed several times a day, mostly dried Cyclop-eeze, with the same filtration. You can see the result: nice green growth on everything, and some hair algae. Water changes were increased to 80% weekly, otherwise corals visibly felt worse, nitrates to 80 ppm and phosphates to 1ppm. Added phosphate remover in back chamber.

 

BTW, the same green growth (on the rock only, no plastic wall there) is in 90g tank, that has a very big skimmer and bucket of refugium with chaeto.

 

Will continue.

[non-photosynt]

The advantage of Nano-cubes and nanos in general: possibility of close monitoring of what is going on, even with camera without macro lenses and weak light (18W PC):

How gorgonian eats:

Microworms infestation after buying the second gorgonian, that was buried in sand at the base:

Bacterial (?) strands and, possibly, the diodogorgia reproduction:

My photomodel shows, how it was done:

 

I will cut one long post to the few readable chunks, if you don't mind.

[non-photosynt]

When nothing can be done with greenery on LR and detritus accumulation under the rock (impossible to remove, unless alternate flow is used), I got a really good tip at forums: remove LR in the sump/refugium and, if possible, use Reef Ceramics instead (unglazed porcelain LR-like structures, that are made in shape of walls, pillars, powerheads covers and so on. Love the idea.). A bit out of my price range, especially shipping from across the continent, it's heavy. Good as biological filtration (porous), less troublesome creatures (no holes, big enough for them, and the boring kind, responsible for a significant part of LR detritus, would have no luck trying to chew through porcelain).

 

With no more place in room for a sump, I was evicted to the basement with this tank:

First version:

(the sump, filled 3/4 by LR worked much better).

 

Civilized version for the room, NC12 and 10g sump:

Front:

Left:

 

An idea was good: the usual direction of the flow collects uneaten sunken food particles at the center of the tank:

Again, thank to advice on forums, for the keeping food suspended for a longer time the flow from the bottom up should help:

Well, it doesn't work with flow impeding objects in the tank. Had to disassemble.

[non-photosynt]

Now, back to the draft version:

 

Front view:

Sun babies /spawns, from pico:

Right, left and place of detritus accumulation:

 

Filtration was a micron sock, changed daily, and phosphate remover. Still, may be 30% of the weekly water changes. Light in the refugium did no good: red slime (or dynoflagellates?), flatworms - just like in all trials of planted refugiums for 90g tank.

 

Otherwise all was very well: no LR, detritus is easily accessible for removal, more or less laminar flow, reflected from the glass (that there the curved glass is a definite advantage).

Another VERY important in my practice thing: this was the first dark tank, that allowed chili corals be opened for a feeding significant part of the day. I'm keeping one dark tank since then.

 

Now the one and only (IMHE, of course, everybody is entitled to have own opinion) disadvantage of the nano-tanks: limited space to stuff a lot of corals into it. Just like very small closet vs walk-in closet .

 

Most affordable corals, available in local stores, are too big. Having a few corals is boring and not stimulating to continue with the hobby.

Obvious solution: use $150 for a very few heads dendrophyllia, or frag the big corals and fill tank by the many different frags.

 

First bites, and the second... I don't know about you, but I'm reluctant to frag corals, that are described as practically impossible to keep. IF it will not kill them, it MAY impede their growth or in general affect their existence in a negative way. Even now, I'm not sure, if the fragging of NPS is equal to cutting nails or amputation of the leg. I don't want to add one more uncontollable variable to the NPS corals keeping, that already has very many unanswered questions.

 

But: when coral is dying, I fragged them without any problems. The risk was minimal. Their other option was just to die. Details of fragging of MPS gorgonians are here. Chili could be fragged just by cutting branch off, but this solves nothing, and after the first chili I stopped to do this.

 

Ended up with the NC6, stuffed by corals. And even more corals are in LFS .

 

Side note: I could be mistaken, but I have an impression, that chili are doing better without gorgonians.

 

Will continue.

[StevieT]

Very impressive! I am keeping a sun coral and a carnation coral in my RSM. So far so good. I still haven't been able to get the sun coral to open up in the day, but I haven't tried all that hard yet either.

 

I am feeding rods food to my entire tank, the carnation seem to take very well to this food and is actually thriving off of it, so it is eating when all of my other corals are.

[yardboy]

You all may have read this, but for those who haven't:

A system for keeping non-photosynthetic corals

[non-photosynt]

The dark tank now:

Practically, all is the same, as in previous, draft version, only tried to make it more compact and with skimmer (miscalculated the water level, necessary for in-tank Tunze Nano skimmer, so this tank always was skimmerless).

5g tank - instead of 6g, 2g sump - instead of 7g sump.

Seachem Matrix ceramic biomedia, kind of replacement for both: Reef Ceramics and LR, should be very efficient (and most cheap ), label says, that 500 ml(pint) should be used for 50g tank. Matrix is used in Tom Rapids smallest canister filter (works very good for me), and more are in a plastic mesh bag - to fill the free space in the sump.

Some phosphate remover, and finest of the Coralife micron pads, shaped as a bag. Water should be pushed by powerhead to pass this bag. Changed daily, as usual. Power filter - solely for water movement, then sump is shut off from the main tank during the a feeding time. The tank and sump each have own flow source and heather, because feeding takes 1 hr and more.

 

Not aesthetical, as it happens with my tanks, temporary, until next improvement, but works well enough for a many months. Shape and flow are much inferior to that, that were in Nano-Cube, Diodogorgias had to be removed, only baby left, and Swiftia and Guaiagorgia frags. The last has actual growth.

 

Generally, I have no time to manage and control in the proper way all these tanks, so all now is the same was as it was, without improvements for now.

 

yardboy: Good article, but this is 500g system with hundreds dollars in a month only for a food. Not for me. I tried the described method of feeding, but none of my tanks, including the 90g was able to handle this. But it worked very well for some other people at RC.

 

StevieT: be so kind, describe in details, with illustrations, what you did, what worked, what not. May be others find the useful approach for their systems. OK?

[non-photosynt]

Now a separate entity: Christmas tree rock tank, relatively high light because of porites.

 

It was removed from 90g tank in the first it's day there, because the toby puffer went for worms at once. Here it is, already protected, you can compare its size to the eggcrate:

 

The first tank, for a single rock, and so far was the best:

5g hexagonal acrylic tank, power filter mostly for the flow and, for a short time, for mechanical filtration.

 

Excellent pattern of the flow distribution, from top to the opposite wall, then reflected, flows around the Xmas rock from the all sides. Sps grow well in this tank too, and small filter feeding sea cucumber, Pentacta anceps, too. Heater was protected because of the cucumbers in the tank.

 

The main food was Kent's ZooPlex, ChromaPlex and MicroVert, until they were replaced by dried Cyclop-eeze, ZoPlan and fine particles after washing the frozen mysis. Also, there was a lot of mysids in this tank.

 

As it happens, the new, incompatible with current system, inhabitants were added:

- the big golden sand-sifting cucumber, that was mistaken for a small filter feeding cucumber, Colochirus robustus. Wetwebmedia said a good things about it, and I wanted another filter-feeding cucumber, after the first one.

- the refugee scooter gragonet, who otherwise will be killed by co-species gal. This is a separate story.

 

While it saved scooter, bioload drastically was increased by the frozen mysis, always present in the tank without filtration and skimmer. Plus sand-sifting cucumber needed the big and fine sand bed to sift.

[non-photosynt]

The next step for Xmas tree rock tank, was to join common reef 10g tank with the previously described 5g hex, in 20g long tank with a lot of sand, RUGF (reverse undergravel filter, you can find here, at NR, the post by jeremai about RUGF):

with micron sock mechanical filtration again.

All was good, even 2 cm long (3/4") baby Tridacna maxima survived:

Filter feeder cucumber immediately went up set itself facing flow:

Sand-sifting cucumber was occupied with sand, scooter and (again!) refugees chromises from 90g has enough space.

 

Again, all was well, until the new, incompatible with current system, inhabitants were added: sea slugs Chromodoris magnifica and Chromodoris quadricolor, with sponge garden for them. A separate story, details are in the old thread and here.

To make a long story short, there was a toxic tank crash, that killed all sps, but porites, all sea stars, sea cucumbers, and irreversibly wounded all but weakest fish (very local influence? Underdogs were kept away). All others survived, crustaceans were not affected at all.

[non-photosynt]

Interesting thing: Christmas tree rock was bleached to snow-white, Spirobranchus worms' crowns looked like a wet hens, but it recovered in very few months:

 

I suspect sponges in causing crash, and just in case have no intention to create a sponge garden, as I planned before. There is somewhere here a topic about keeping sponges by Jane of Baden, very useful.

 

Christmas tree rock was moved back to 10g tank, together with other high light animals: baby Tridacnas and condy anemone. New, different Xmas tree rock was added:

This is practically all tank, excluding heater and filtration. All the same.

New Xmas tree rock, presumably Indo-Pacific (saltcorner mentioned, that smaller sized adult Spirobranchus may be from there, as opposed to 1" high crowns of Caribbean ones. If I remember right, of course):

and has different kind of porites:

BTW, these porites are much more difficult to keep, and the dead areas are a place for bacterial growth and algae settlement (bryopsis). Nightmare:

Tried to improve and use skimmer and refugium to control it, you already had seen this system:

Elevated magnesium treatment didn't help, but reducing light and ChemiClean treatment partially helped.

 

Sorry, it's not all yet, more will follow.

[non-photosynt]

Forgot to mention: 10g, 5 g hex and 20L tanks were in direct sunlight for several hours a day, in addition to own 72W (max) light. Worked well, clams grew without dosing phytoplankton. Only overheating issue, but this was closely monitored.

 

I had opportunity to acquire other kinds of Christmas tree rocks:

Green porites with wine red worms crowns:

Much later, the same kind, only on rock with dead porites:

Partially the rescue case, partially to check, if the worms will not live without porites, maybe even try transplanting of the green porites to this rock (what I never did, always something more urgent, or fingers are inflamed after cleaning tanks, or I just need some time away from hamster wheel of serving to my tanks).

 

One thing is strongly believed - no proof, of course - that it is better to keep bristle worms and Christmas tree worms separately, or the first will outcompete the last:

 

Another thought to check was using these worms as a possible reproductive material to populate the bigger rock with green porites. You see, most of my Xmas tree rocks have very few Spirobranchus worms: 4-6, in spite of price (those, who visit frequently Mississauga LFS maybe seen better, but this is all I could find in my area). On this dead rock is a lot of live worms. This plan was hanged in transition: physically there are no safe place in 20L tank for it, away from the reach of the condy anemone, who, for a some reason, started to grow. So, for a time being, the dead Xmas rock with live worms in in the big tank.

 

Same thought about potentially possible reproduction was the leading thought in my mind, when I get at last the very big amount of very young Spirobranchuses on a small rock. Definite plus: it's compact, as if created for nanos:

The first is in 20L, the second - lack of space again - in a big tank.

 

About possible reproduction with what I got: (from the what I read later), the probability is not far from the proverbial case, when the boy brought the turtle home, with intention to check if it really lives 300 yrs .

 

And there is the green pavona rock with 3 drab greenish Spirobranchus, bought for the lack of better, before I found the rocks with youngsters.

[non-photosynt]

More new corals - more place is needed. 20L was set again, with the Xmas tree rocks in line, again, close tom the light:

Filtration varied from refugium and micron sock (on the photo above), through the trial to use DSB in analog of 25" long AquaFuge analog, with skimmer:

. CaribSea Ocean Direct sand was used, new and the months old from the hexagonal refugium.

It didn't work well: a lot of detritus and some anoxic pockets:

 

Added standard filtration unit:

 

Then tried to use probiotics, Red Sea ProtoBac, but with not much info on its use, it ended up with dark bacterial growth in the tank (the cleaning was regualr, once in 10 days max, usually every week):

 

Had to remove LR again and place it it for a "cooking" (bacterial clean-up, without food and light, in the bucket with a powerhead), corals went onto ceramic vases again. Tank was moved to the basement and had full treatment with ChemiClean (oxidizing agent). This cleaned the tank surfaces and the beige Xmas tree rock, but not for long.

 

The bright side of this troublesome tank is that it practically never had nitrates or phosphates: 0 and 0 ppm.

The most details about this misadventure are in this thread. To make a long story short, the possible solution will be a lot of powerheads (or closed loops) on wavemaker. Particular placement is provided.

[non-photosynt]

Crinoid (feather star) in 20L tank:

Have them for a short time only, but this is a good kind, next after the red Himerometra robustipinna (ID?), that is the only one opened during the day:

Others are nocturnal, and the last two kinds are troublesome: they tend to wander, getting into the troubles:

Now they are in the big tank, that is better fed and has higher flow and more hiding spaces.

 

Here again the unsurpassed advantage of the small tanks for a weak cameras:

cyclop-eeze, moving in the feeding grove of the feather star's arm (red dots):

In the big tank I can't get even that quality shot.

 

Other inhabitants of the 20L:

Sorry to say, but they are growing significantly better, then mushrooms and leather, even in these conditions. Lack of color, of course.

 

This was a trial to set flow, that allows to keep detritus and food, suspended in water column for a long time:

 

Didn't work again, without alternated flow.

[non-photosynt]

Last, but not least, the recent addition, few months only : sea apples species tank:

Refugium type of the tank:

10g main tank, LR rubble is attached to the back wall, macroalgae, a lot of mysids and bristle worms, Rio Nano skimmer (works very well, after initial month of noise).

Sump is the small AquaFuge analog, holding heather, long time not changed phosphate remover and a lot of biomedia(ceramic Matrix and leftovers of the LR rubble). No mechanical filtration at all. Tried once to add micron bag, but it impedes flow and after several hours continued to be clean. Phosphates and nitrates are zero. Cleanest of all tanks.

 

Two apples, small, ~2":

 

and the big one, ~6":

 

They also can be with colorless tentacles:

and pure yellow tentacles (don't have one).

This was the first buy, without seeing tentacles. Exchanged it next day for the small one on the photo above.

Cleanest tank. For a week or so, this setup worked as well with the small apple and red feather star. After addition the big apple, had to give it more space, and used the already cycled would be grow-out tank for sun coral babies. More about sea apples is here.

 

It's all I have for now.

 

I really like to know details, tip and tricks from other NPS and FFF nano-keepers, including choice, compatibility (even by convenience), and organisation.

[mrfipp]

These set ups are great! thanks for posting all this info, Im sure many of us will find it useful!

[jeremai]

Wow, it's good to see some updates, n-p. Maybe I'll get back into the nonphotosynthetic game, if I could get my hands on some small crinoids.

[non-photosynt]

Thanks, and, if possible, post the the information about the old tanks. It's easier to find anything, if it in the one thread, no dispersed in many .

 

Feather stars: when curled, they all are small. When open: wandering brown and violet mottled are 8-9" in diameter, green mottled 6-7" and red is ~5".

 

Wetweb recommends to choose crinoids with very many arms. The green one is like this, 33 arms. The best, red one, has less arms, then any other. The brown and violet have 21 and 23 arms, and in open state they are thin-looking, as pheasant tail feather comparing to ostrich tail feather (the green is like this).

[hijiwii]

Awesome setups. Are you having success with the crinoids?

[Jamie]

Awesome! You might have said already and I missed it, but have you tried/ are you considering Dendronephthya/Scleronephthya?

[non-photosynt]

Crinoids: too early to say, I have them only a little more than half of year. So far red is trouble free and sits open at the top of the tank, green-white would prefer the dark place (what I haven't there), to feed longer, and long armed, less feathery were in troubles, until found their place: tiptoed on the rock, facing Koralia 1 and Koralia 2. Before that, lost big parts of their arms, now recovering.

Each time, when flow pattern was changed, I had to watch where feather stars were moving, especially the wandering ones. Then pick up them in the hand and move in appropriate safe place (and restore pattern of flow ).

 

Scleronephthya and dendronephthya: I have them mostly in the big tank, working with sleronephthya since beginning, and with dendro - 4 months, when was able to find the healthy attached one.

Previous, which I never had seen with opened polyps, died within days. Healthy dendro, with polyps open in the store, attached to the rock the way that it never touched walls of the bag, while I was carrying it home, survived in the same tank, in the same conditions. I was given advice to keep them in a quite high flow, much more, then "high" was in my imagination. And as close as possible to continuous feeding. Lowering temperature to 75-76F was desirable, but without chiller or AC was not possible during the summer.

 

Scleronephthya wasn't any easier, then dendro for me. It is able recover from half-melted state, tolerated (unwillingly) aiptasia and hair algae. The same high flow, continuous feeding and maybe different variety of food.

BTW, I was talking about fluffy scleronephthya (pink, orange and yellow kinds), on the right, not the slimy one without visible sclerites (on the left), which, I believe, is Umbellulifera. LFS insist that this is sclero, that likes medium flow, but their shipping list online repeatedly shows Umbellulifera, which they can't show me.

That one was impossible to attach or move. It slides away, as jellyfish.

[hijiwii]

So how are those crinoids faring?

[travisurfer]

Wow, great read n-p

[non-photosynt]

Crinoids: as was expected since beginning, the violet and the brown died. Brown a couple of days ago, violet - a month or so ago, after Aiptasia-X treatment. Tried to keep them in different environments, including tank, suitable for dendronephthya and refugium type of planted tank with a lot of mysids, where filter feeding sea apples live. Nothing worked. I recently read one article about conducting experiments with some crinoids in the wild, because they stop to feed in laboratory tank, even if flow-through of the natural seawater was provided.

 

Red Hymerometra still the best, only intakes of everything should be protected, because removing it from U-tube is quite difficult.

 

The green mottled feather star lost few times parts of arms, but recovered, open every night for a feeding.

 

I suspect, that they are sensitive to compounds, produced by bacteria and microalgae, growing on the rock in lighted tank with zero nitrates and phosphates. Even with large skimmer working and carbon is changed on regular basis. Same with scleronephthya and chili coral, but not with gorgonians and dendronephthya. Interesting.

 

Dark tanks either had a too low flow, or crinoids would be chocked by amount sun corals food.

 

All they received SS-type of live rotifers, enriched by Shellfish Diet, as an addition to other types of food.

 

Update on 90g tank: was overrun by aiptasia and shut down. All inhabitants were divided by requirements:

1) Sea apples, big and small, are still in refugium type of planted tank with rock wall as a pod pile. Same 10g tank with small Aqua-Fuge type of refugium as side sump with biomedia and Rio Nano skimmer.

2) High light tank for Christmas tree rocks, condy anemone and sps, now with dendronephthya, sceronephthyas and non-photosynthetic gorgonians and chili corals. 15g shallow underbed storage box with usual sump ~7g. Was ASM Mini skimmer, replaced by 250g rated Turboflotor skimmer, what didn't helped much. Easily cleanable, no detritus accumulation, nothing to blame now.

3) Sun corals collection, 6g tank with side sump with skimmer and biomedia and skimmer. Was Rio Nano skimmer, replaced by 250g rated ASM G-3. Better, but still this didn't solved all problems. Started use Lanthanum based phosphate remover.

4) Large tube anemone in 12g Nano Cube, Current internal filter.

5) Fish tank for chromis and percula, who outlived lionfish. High NPS gorgonians, that don't fit in 15g underbed box, are here, started to grow (swiftia kofoidid and oldest red Diodogorgia nodulifera and chilil frag. Tunze DOC (smallest) skimmer and Eheim Liberty 200 power filter with filters.

 

NPS corals are continue doing fairly well, some of them actually grow. But speed of growth is not comparable with sps in the same tank, growing very fast. Who said that one should graduate to LPS and then to sps? I could only wish that other corals were as trouble free and fast growers as they are, even in conditions of my tanks.

Sea cucumbers look like they didn't decline since March. Lost one spirobranchus after treatment by Aiptasia-X in close proximity, but others are alive. Lost another one spirobranchus on different rock, that was facing up and was repeatedly exposed to air during water changes.

Sun corals recover at steady pace. Yesterday bought the healthy T. micrantha, what was supposed to be difficult. It is open and eating just like any other sun coral, dendrophyllia or cladopsammia in the same tank.

Plan to frag all kinds kinds I have and glue their rocks together, then place them in different flow, feed by different food and see what happens. when I will have time for this.

 

So far continue experiment with feeding sun corals different kinds of food ( 1 - whole organisms: mysis, plankton, 2 - chopped grocery seafood). Both washed twice before feeding. Daily feedings in amount 5 frozen cubes or tablepoon of seafood. Chopped seafood was unacceptable with RioNano skimmer, but with large skimmer it make water foams in skimmer with overflowing and pollution is removed fairly fast. In a couple of hours skimmer have to be readjusted to be able skim again. With whole food it was better for Rio Nano skimmer, but with such amount of food it didn't handle well water cleaning (neither ASM G-3 does, but still much better - on 6 g tank).

Fast rise on phosphates could be manages effectively and economically by liquid phosphate remover, but for nitrates - if and when I will have time - denitrator will be nice thing to try and vodka dosing according shedule in last Advanced Aquarist article. Refugium with chaeto, Duplex refugium, DSB on tank with large amounts of sun corals didn't work well. I have impressing, that they were coated by oily film, that is not removed by skimmer at once.

 

What else I missed?