Weird Water Change Question

[Weetabix7]

Prop, if it's not that big a deal, then why was everything going downhill and I was getting STN showing up on a bunch of the sps as well as most of them losing color?

Something was WRONG.

I ended up doing a 3g WC.

I test and dose every day for Alk and Ca in the prop tank with B-Ionic, so that should at least help to keep Alk in line.

[The Propagator]

You were suffering all the above BEFORE the garlic incident correct?

[Weetabix7]

You were suffering all the above BEFORE the garlic incident correct?

 

No, I wasn't.

Before the garlic incident, I had a few palys that weren't opening all the way and I had one encrusting Monti that wasn't extending polyps.

When the whole garlic thing happened, I kept doing 1.5g WC's about 4 days or so apart.

First I had sps that started fading in color.

Then I had sps that started STN'ing and some lost a lot of flesh.

I ended up throwing away two Monti's. They were both pieces that had had minor issues before the garlic incident and after it they got too stressed and lost too much flesh to save.

I had 5 or so other sps pieces that I fragged off STN areas and then dipped in Tech-D. I dipped all other sps as well. All of these other sps pieces had previously had no issues.

 

Today's Alk is slightly over 3.0 meq/l, so I'm doing fine in that area so far.

[SeeDemTails]

Hmmmmm....

 

I agree with propagator about the major water changes being bad, I try to never do more than 15%, I just figured if you corals were literally dying it would be a last resort to get the toxins(if there are any) that are hurting your corals out.

 

I would stick to one type of salt for a while, and do the smallest changes your corals conditions will allow until all the water in the system is the new salt mix water.

[Weetabix7]

As mentioned earlier, I DID try doing smaller water changes and it didn't work.

I am planning on doing frequent 3g water changes for a little while.

I am sticking with Oceanic salt for now.

[The Propagator]

Hmmm. I was under the impression you had STN before any garlic was introduced. My bad on that.

But one thing that definitely wouldn't help them though and would definitely cause color loss, tissue loss and over all stress would be water changes to frequently, or to much at one time. But its sounds like you didn't do that. 1.5 gallons every 4 days is about right. Thats only what around 15%? ( math is not my thing LOL! )

Changing salts so frequently like you were doing there for a minute could do it to though.

 

Is there a way you can guestimate how much garlic extract you think actuall ymade it in to the tank?

 

The reason why I say if its only like half a teaspoon or something is because garlic extract is widely used by folks who have reef fishes in their reefs along with coral of all types. Its used as a supplement and as an appetite stimulator I am almost positive it also contains grain alcohol. I know for a fact that straight up garlic in small amounts wont do anything harmful other then add a small amount of nutrients to the system. But that can be skimmed out or removed via water changes.

I am looking up common amounts of grain alcohol found in garlic extract right now for you.

( it should say on the bottle you have though I would assume? Have you checked that yet?)

If its less than 10% of the total volume of fluid in the bottle I wouldn't even sweat it.

 

As for the RTN.. what was on the montiporas was definitely a parasite or predator if tech-D didn't knock it out. Usually if your parameters are fine, tech-D didnt work, and you are still suffering RTN its a predator. Check for two things on your acroporas, red bugs, and almost transparent little spider looking things. The spider looking things do NOT look anything like zoa spiders. They actually look like little transparent spider crabs. I'll see if I can find a photo of them for you. Aside from acro eating flat worms and true RTN those little SOB's will do more damage more quickly then any predator I have seen on an sps and they multiply fast.

Dip wont kill them either. It will but the length of time it need to be in the dip will also harm and damn near kill the coral as well. The best thing to do if you have them is to place a power head in a fresh bucket of salt water and blast all your sps at a safe but strong distance from the nozzle and blow them off. During lights on they will be under the shadey spots. IE under branches , and even the rock work.

 

 

I'll look up the garlic right now....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I cant find anything right now....While I am at the store tonight I will look on some bottles.

[Weetabix7]

Hey Prop, this is the EXACT garlic product that ended up in my tank:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Natures-Apothecary-Gar...2QQcmdZViewItem

 

If you scroll farther down the description, it gives the exact label description of the contents.

[The Propagator]

I called walgreens pharmacy and they have no idea with out knowing the actual product name.

They said you can call the poison control center and they will more than likely have a data base on it.

Just be sure not to hit "this is an medical emergency" in the options menu LOL!

[The Propagator]

Hey Prop, this is the EXACT garlic product that ended up in my tank:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Natures-Apothecary-Gar...2QQcmdZViewItem

 

If you scroll farther down the description, it gives the exact label description of the contents.

 

I wouldnt even sweat that.

Look slike its 40% garlic, and the other 60% of the volume is a 1:2 ratio being 2 parts DI water and 1 part grain alcohol.

That would make the actual grain alcohol content found in the volume at what ? 20% or less and its diluted by the DI water.

Now we need to guesstimate how much was put into the tank.

 

How much did you know was already missing from the bottle versus whats gone now?

Just guess it....

[Weetabix7]

I came into the kitchen to find 95% of the bottle emptied out, liquid all over the kitchen counter in front of the tank, and the eye dropper top missing. Found the eye dropper top the next day floating in the prop tank and hiding behind the lip of a HOB skimmer, it was in there all night.

Impossible to say how much liquid made it into the tank and how much on the counter since I wasn't there to see what happened.

I'm guessing that my son poured all of it on the counter and just put the top in the tank, but there's no way to verify that since no one actually saw what happened.

 

The fact remains that I used Oceanic almost exclusively after this happened.

There was one 1.5g WC that was half Oceanic and half regular Tropic Marin from a newly opened box. All other WC's were completely Oceanic.

[The Propagator]

Then I wouldn't even think twice about saying thats not the problem.

 

 

I think its a predator or system shock from changing salts so much, and or water changes to frequently.

( I know ,, I know... BUT you have to remember its a small tank )

[sen5241b]

It should be mentioned that many smaller water changes totaling X gallons are not the same as one big water change of X gallons. With the first method, the second change out will actually be removing some of the newer water from the first change out, the third change out etc.

 

Considering you have pretty bad water with the garlic crap in it, I would do the big change out for better effect and just deal with the alkalinity afterwards. This assumes you have the cloudiness issue worked out

[SeeDemTails]

Considering you have pretty bad water with the garlic crap in it, I would do the big change out for better effect and just deal with the alkalinity afterwards. This assumes you have the cloudiness issue worked out

 

That was my take on it, but if things appear to be leveling out at the very least, you may want to continue small changes daily for a week or so and then re-evaluate the situation then....Unless something drastic happens in the time frame, then have the big change available as a back up plan.

[The Propagator]

As long as your doing small changes the system will never be cycled again. DO a water change and leave it be for 7 days adding nothing but top off water.

If you see things loosing tissue dip them and look for predators.

If there are no predators, your parameters are fine, then the water changes are doing nothing more than hindering things at this point and stressing your coral out.

 

Yes separate smaller water changes done daily are better then one large one but in the long run you get the same results.

Right now I cant think of a better example then this tank of one needing to be left alone to finish its thing.

I dont mean that the way it probably sounds Lisa.

 

Like I said before I would seriously leave it be and add only to off water for a 7 day period.

Just skim, top off water, and dip your coral if you need to.

There comes a time in every ones reefing career when you just have to say "fug it" I cant save every thing before you hurt every thing all at once trying to save a few in the same tank.

All you can do is let your tank stabelize, dip the infected and let her ride.

[SeeDemTails]

And you know, I think once you have experienced one of the fug it moments, it makes you a better reefer in the long run.

[Weetabix7]

And you know, I think once you have experienced one of the fug it moments, it makes you a better reefer in the long run.

 

At the moment, I'm experiencing a whole string of them.

[SeeDemTails]

The ironic part is just like you, my husband and I were frantically trying to do something about our crashing 37 gal. Once the zoa pox got to a point that the massive colonies started dying, were basically kept the water good enough for the fish and said fug it and did nothing for about a month. Thats when the tank dopped to zero nitrates and began to recover, when we literally did nothing but top it off.

[Weetabix7]

The ironic part is just like you, my husband and I were frantically trying to do something about our crashing 37 gal. Once the zoa pox got to a point that the massive colonies started dying, were basically kept the water good enough for the fish and said fug it and did nothing for about a month. Thats when the tank dopped to zero nitrates and began to recover, when we literally did nothing but top it off.

 

Hmm, good to know.

Thanks for your perspective on that.

[masterbuilder]

That’s what I have been saying too... Just stop.

 

Now... I know nothing about SPS but what I read here, which is normally 50% wrong.

 

But...I would do NOTHING at all for a least a week, don’t even look at it! (I know that’s nearly impossible.) Just top off as needed with untreated (read un-dosed) water. Let it settle...see what it looks like, then plan your strategy.

 

Mark

 

EDIT: Now...go ahead and tell me to fug off....its ok

[Weetabix7]

Thats what I have been saying too... Just stop.

 

Now... I know nothing about SPS but what I read here, which is normally 50% wrong.

 

But...I would do NOTHING at all for a least a week, dont even look at it! (I know thats nearly impossible.) Just top off as needed with untreated (read dosed) water. Let it settle...see what it looks like, then plan your stratgey.

 

 

Mark

 

EDIT: Now...go ahead and tell me to fug off....its ok

 

Nah, I wouldn't do that, you're mah bud.

[geekreef_05]

And you know, I think once you have experienced one of the fug it moments, it makes you a better reefer in the long run.

 

lol, true, true.

 

Now... I know nothing about SPS but what I read here, which is normally 50% wrong.

 

lol

[reefone]

i hope u put the fear of god into ur kids about touching ur tank again

[The Propagator]

Lisa this is what I want you to do for a week :

 

 

 

The ironic part is just like you, my husband and I were frantically trying to do something about our crashing 37 gal. Once the zoa pox got to a point that the massive colonies started dying, were basically kept the water good enough for the fish and said fug it and did nothing for about a month. Thats when the tank dopped to zero nitrates and began to recover, when we literally did nothing but top it off.

 

Thats exactly what I had to do with mine during this past crisis.

The more I tried to fix it the worse it had gotten. If I hadn't ran into a VERY savy employtee at my local LFS I would still be having problems with it.

I shocked my system and threw my alk WAAAAAAaaaaay the fug off with massive water changes. I had to give the system roughly two weeks of nothing but alk buffer and top off water. I dipped as needed though. but the more I changed the water the more things got worse. ( and that wa sin a 100g system. Think how much its effecting a 10 ? )

[masterbuilder]

Hey,

 

Was just thinking. You said there were problems before the eyedropper incident. Think there might be some chemical warfare going on? Is it mixed reef/prop tank?

 

I like what Pro and SeeDem said.

[The Propagator]

Hey,

 

Was just thinking. You said there were problems before the eyedropper incident. Think there might be some chemical warfare going on? Is it mixed reef/prop tank?

 

I like what Prop and SeeDem said.