Weird Water Change Question

[Weetabix7]

I am planning on doing a 75% WC on my 10g prop tank to correct some major issues that have come up.

A lot of those issues are due to the fact that my 2 yr. old decided to dose my tank with a liquid garlic supplement containing garlic, grain alcohol, and DI water.

To read some of the background on the whole issue, see the discussion starting with post #645 on pg. 33 here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...5161&st=640

 

Anyway, here's my question.

I've had my water mixing for 42 hrs. now and I have the temp, SG, and Ca levels all matched to the tank.

SG- 1.025

Ca- 530

Temp- 80 deg.

 

However, the Alk in the WC water is significantly higher than the tank.

The water in my tank is 2.5 meq/l and the WC water is just slightly over 4.0 meq/l. I just tested both with a Seachem test kit.

I can dose with B-Ionic to bring the tank Alk up to 3.0 meq/l, but that's still a difference of 1.0 meq/l.

I wouldn't worry about it so much if it were a smaller WC of 20% or so, but this will be around a 75% WC with the intent of getting this system back on track.

I'm concerned that the sudden rise in Alk will cause problems for the many sps pieces in the tank.

 

What do you guys think?

Does anyone have any suggestions?

[PurpleUP]

I am planning on doing a 75% WC on my 10g prop tank to correct some major issues that have come up.

A lot of those issues are due to the fact that my 2 yr. old decided to dose my tank with a liquid garlic supplement containing garlic, grain alcohol, and DI water.

To read some of the background on the whole issue, see the discussion starting with post #645 on pg. 33 here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...5161&st=640

 

Anyway, here's my question.

I've had my water mixing for 42 hrs. now and I have the temp, SG, and Ca levels all matched to the tank.

SG- 1.025

Ca- 530

Temp- 80 deg.

 

However, the Alk in the WC water is significantly higher than the tank.

The water in my tank is 2.5 meq/l and the WC water is just slightly over 4.0 meq/l. I just tested both with a Seachem test kit.

I can dose with B-Ionic to bring the tank Alk up to 3.0 meq/l, but that's still a difference of 1.0 meq/l.

I wouldn't worry about it so much if it were a smaller WC of 20% or so, but this will be around a 75% WC with the intent of getting this system back on track.

I'm concerned that the sudden rise in Alk will cause problems for the many sps pieces in the tank.

 

What do you guys think?

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

B-Ionic won't bring it up to 4.0 over the course of 1 week? I agree, 1.0 is too wide of a disparity. Is your change water still cloudy? That was odd.

[RayWhisperer]

Higher alk will promote faster growth on the SPS especially. That said, 1.0 is way too much of a swing way too fast. What about dividing that water up and doing several smaller (say10 to 20%) over the next two days? That way, it will gradually raise the Alk in your prop tank, while also getting things back on track.

[Prowland]

I would do as many small water changes as possible. Like do a half a gal a day untill you get stuff back on track.

[Weetabix7]

B-Ionic won't bring it up to 4.0 over the course of 1 week? I agree, 1.0 is too wide of a disparity. Is your change water still cloudy? That was odd.

 

No, it's not still cloudy, it cleared up around 3 in the afternoon yesterday.

I'm speculating that the lid covering most of the top of the bucket the water was mixing may have had something to do with that.

It was mixing up cloudy from 5 pm Fri to 1 pm Sat with the lid on. After I took the lid off it cleared up in a couple of hrs and has been mixing clear since about 3 pm yesterday.

[reefone]

No, it's not still cloudy, it cleared up around 3 in the afternoon yesterday.

I'm speculating that the lid covering most of the top of the bucket the water was mixing may have had something to do with that.

It was mixing up cloudy from 5 pm Fri to 1 pm Sat with the lid on. After I took the lid off it cleared up in a couple of hrs and has been mixing clear since about 3 pm yesterday.

maybe it wasnt getting enough oxygen?

[Weetabix7]

maybe it wasnt getting enough oxygen?

 

Yeah, I wondered about that.

Thing is, it was definitely getting SOME oxygen cause I didn't have the lid on tight, there was a crack to allow for oxygen exchange.

I'm still a little paranoid about that cause of all the problems I've had with salt mixes. But I've mixed up WC water from this exact batch of Oceanic before with no problems. It immediately mixed up clear before though.

The other weird thing is that the water I mixed up from this batch of Oceanic before had a Ca of 440, and this time the Ca is 530. What's that about??? It's Oceanic from the exact same container, and the same test kit was used as well!! Only thing I can think of is that the Ca may have settled lower in the container.

[PurpleUP]

If you reduce your water change volume to smaller changes over the next few days, won't defeat the purpose of a large water change in the first place? Then it would require 3 times the amount to replace 75-80% of your existing tank water. Just a thought.

[reefone]

ive read about people worring that the ca settles to the bottom. so they mix it with a empty 5g bucket dumping the new one back and forth.

 

ive been reading on all the troubles u have been having. sorry to hear

but i realy cant help all that much cause i dont test or dose

[Weetabix7]

If you reduce your water change volume to smaller changes over the next few days, won't defeat the purpose of a large water change in the first place? Then it would require 3 times the amount to replace 75-80% of your existing tank water. Just a thought.

 

Yes, I know that, but what else would you recommend with the Alk being as high as it is???

[PurpleUP]

Yes, I know that, but what else would you recommend with the Alk being as high as it is???

 

Increasing the Alk in your display to match. You previously said that B-Ionic would only bring it to 3.0 and not any higher. why not? Is that its Alk limit?

[Weetabix7]

Increasing the Alk in your display to match. You previously said that B-Ionic would only bring it to 3.0 and not any higher. why not? Is that its Alk limit?

 

I haven't tried to get it that high before, but going on past experience I would say that it would take some pretty intensive dosing over the period of several days to get it that high.

Considering how long I'd have to wait to do the WC, it seems more practical to do smaller (say 35%) WC's over a few days. If I did that, I could start today.

[PurpleUP]

I haven't tried to get it that high before, but going on past experience I would say that it would take some pretty intensive dosing over the period of several days to get it that high.

Considering how long I'd have to wait to do the WC, it seems more practical to do smaller (say 35%) WC's over a few days. If I did that, I could start today.

 

That'll work too. It'll just take more water changes. But considering the cloudiness issue, you might want to go with the smaller water changes after all and see what effect the new water has on your corals. Just in case.

[masterbuilder]

Hey, I would just do a 30-35% water change every day or so for the nest 4 or 5 days. After that, maybe the way to go is just normal water changes for awhile, quit dosing and testing. Your have plenty experience and have been quite sucessful. But....maybe, just maybe your are becoming overly obsessed with this water chemistry thing. My advice from afar without knowing all the details is ...just go back to what worked..loose the test kits, the chemicals and rely on good ole' water changes. Thats what I am doing and my tank already looks 100% better.

 

Relax and enjoy,

Mark

[Weetabix7]

Hey, I would just do a 30-35% water change every day or so for the nest 4 or 5 days. After that, maybe the way to go is just normal water changes for awhile, quit dosing and testing. Your have plenty experience and have been quite sucessful. But....maybe, just maybe your are becoming overly obsessed with this water chemistry thing. My advice from afar without knowing all the details is ...just go back to what worked..loose the test kits, the chemicals and rely on good ole' water changes. Thats what I am doing and my tank already looks 100% better.

 

Relax and enjoy,

Mark

 

You may be right to a certain extent, just in the sense that this whole thing has been so crazy that my head is kinda spinning and it's hard to know which way to go at times.

The only thing is, with sps in the tank it really is necessary to regularly test and dose for Alk and Ca. If it weren't for the sps in the tank I would tend to agree with your assessment.

[masterbuilder]

OH....SPS...never mind.

 

Thats the whole damn problem. SPS in a nano

 

Just kidding,

Mark

[medachef]

Yeah, I wondered about that.

Thing is, it was definitely getting SOME oxygen cause I didn't have the lid on tight, there was a crack to allow for oxygen exchange.

I'm still a little paranoid about that cause of all the problems I've had with salt mixes. But I've mixed up WC water from this exact batch of Oceanic before with no problems. It immediately mixed up clear before though.

The other weird thing is that the water I mixed up from this batch of Oceanic before had a Ca of 440, and this time the Ca is 530. What's that about??? It's Oceanic from the exact same container, and the same test kit was used as well!! Only thing I can think of is that the Ca may have settled lower in the container.

I just mixed up a 5 gallon batch a couple days ago and had the same thing happen. 440 first time and this time it was 520. Not that i'm complaining... But does the stuff settle out or something?? BTW i was using an API Ca test. and i also mix with a lid on cz of a little one running around the house and i have had the same problem with the water too. And once i take it off it does clear up. Weird. I may just get some Airline and plumb it thru the lid iand then into my MJ to do the Venturi thing so taht it aerates the mix. PLus i can close the water up from little, sticky 3 year old fingers.

[Mark S]

Sounds like a salt issue to me. I have never heard of anything like that before and if my salt did anything like that it would be in the dumpster in a heartbeat. Maybe we should just all go back to good old cheap IO. It might not be the greatest, but at least is the same, batch after batch. Your dosing, so it really makes very little diff where the CA/ALK starts out.

[Weetabix7]

Sounds like a salt issue to me. I have never heard of anything like that before and if my salt did anything like that it would be in the dumpster in a heartbeat.

 

GAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I really need to post a pic of my "salt collection".

[jeremai]

Yes, I know that, but what else would you recommend with the Alk being as high as it is???

Prayer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HA! Sorry, I'm still having my own chemistry issues, not much help.

[Hans Dorn]

You could lower the alkalinity of your new water by carefully adding muriatic acid.

 

linky

 

I'd go with 1/3 of the recommended dose first, and check the results before adding more.

 

You have to aerate the water after adding the acid to get rid of the CO2 that develops.

 

Regards Hans

[JonathanS]

change 50percent water weekly.

[SeeDemTails]

I know this might sound a little radical, but I would got for it all at once and get it over with. Just do it.

 

I think once you get the water in the tank the alk will stabilize and drop to a more normal level, just do the change at night or early AM so you get the boost from the ALK when everything is at its lowest anyway.

 

I know you have been having problems with salts, and the bottom line is none are perfect.....But I would reccomend picking one, and sticking with it for like a month, and see what happens. Switching salts so often may be part of the issues here.

 

I have been using tropic marin for the past 6 months without switching, and my tank has never looked better. I used sea water before that, but got mixed results, and I collected my own water from a boat, so I know it was as good as it was going to get.

[JonathanS]

I know this might sound a little radical, but I would got for it all at once and get it over with. Just do it.

 

I think once you get the water in the tank the alk will stabilize and drop to a more normal level, just do the change at night or early AM so you get the boost from the ALK when everything is at its lowest anyway.

 

I know you have been having problems with salts, and the bottom line is none are perfect.....But I would reccomend picking one, and sticking with it for like a month, and see what happens. Switching salts so often may be part of the issues here.

 

I have been using tropic marin for the past 6 months without switching, and my tank has never looked better. I used sea water before that, but got mixed results, and I collected my own water from a boat, so I know it was as good as it was going to get.

reasonable

[The Propagator]

DO NOT change out 75, 50, or even 30 percent of your water.

Your Alk will drop DRASTICALLY because you will shock your nitrification cycle into a screeching halt at the half way point and end up with the same alk problem I had.

 

I wasn't BS'ing you Lisa.

A major water change will screw you up worse then you are now with that tank.

Brown algae will soon follow, then hair or red slime I guarantee it if you do a 75% change.

Try doing a 15 percent change every other day this week from Monday to Friday.

Thats only about 1.5 gallons but your dealing with a very small volume to begin with.

You have to keep that in mind. Massive water changes will shock your system like a mini tank crash.

Trust me.

 

I missed the part before about the covered bucket I guess or I would have highly recommended you not do that. MAJOR gas exchange happens when you mix fresh saltwater. Those fizzies you see aren't oxygen bubbles they are CO2 and other nasties bubbling out as the salt dissolves.

It needs as much exposure to fresh air as you can give it. I always swish mine around with a wooden dow rod to make sure I get enough oxygen in there. I do this until the water is clear before I cover it for storage, then I burb and stir at least twice a week if I am not gong to use it right away and a PH isn't available.

 

Calcium will differ with each water change in in 99.9 percent of salts you buy no matter how expensive or fancy shmancy it is. This is due to a lot of things. Mainly moisture, and what I believe to be "heavier" granules holding more than others either due to moisture and trickle down, or just the way it was spray dried. They don't add the calcium later they add it all before they spray dry it so it will all crystalize together. Stir your salt up before you take a scoop and it should be fairly consistent. At least with in 50 I would think.

 

It is very common and 99.9 percent of the time completely SAFE to experience calcium levels from 380- to 500 with most salts out today. The problems happen when you don't realize the calcium level is high or low and either don't does or does on top of it.

ALK and PH are more likely to cause a problem being to high or to low then in your salt then high calcium with out dosing calcium too.

 

That garlic wont hurt anything, neither will the grain alcohol in it.

It didn't sound like that much got dumped the last time we talked?

Worse case scenario...you have a mini cycle and some discolored coral for a week or two.

The same effect will happen if you do a major water change and shock the system though as well.

The grain alcohol would be the thing to worry about it a large quantity got poured in.

But carbon will pull it out.

 

DITCH THE POLYFILTER FOR 2-3 DAYS AND PUT IN SOME CARBON PLEASE !!