Neanderthalman's 40 Breeder

[neanderthalman]

As promised, the AWC:

 

12V:

 

120V:

 

 

 

Now, I will try my best to explain how it works. If you don't know how a relay works, I recommend http://home.howstuffworks.com/relay.htm. The green spray shows the current paths for each stage.

 

 

Stage 1 - ATO

 

12V: Evaporation causes the two high level float switches to drop. The Level High Multiplying Relay (LHMR) turns on. Current passes through the capacitor and through the base of the transistor. This allows the timer relay to turn on.

 

 

120V: MCR is off, LHMR is on, Timer is on. Current passes through to the ATO pump.

 

 

Stage 2 - ATO fault

 

12V: If the ATO runs for more than several seconds, the capacitor becomes fully charged, and current no longer passes through the base of the transistor. The timer relay turns off, triggering the alarm LED. The LED could be replaced with an audible buzzer.

 

 

120V: MCR is off, LHMR is on, Timer is off. Current cannot pass through to any pump. This prevents either flooding due to a failed float switch or plumbing, or burning out a powerhead from running dry.

 

 

Stage 3 - Initiate AWC

 

12V: The start button is held down. Current passes through the Master Control Relay (MCR).

 

 

120V: MCR is on. LLLR is off. Current passes through the drain pump. ATO pump is isolated.

 

 

Stage 4 - AWC seal-in

 

12V: The drain pump begins to remove water from the tank as the start button is held. The high level float switches drop, powering the LHMR. This 'seals in' the MCR, such that it will remain powered when the start button is released.

 

 

120V: MCR is on. LLLR is off. Current passes through the drain pump. ATO pump is isolated.

 

 

Stage 5 - Low Level Trigger

 

12V: The drain pump removes enough water that the low level float switch drops. The Low Level Latch Relay is now powered. This also 'seals in' around the float switch.

 

 

120V: MCR is on. LLLR is on. Current passes through the refill pump. ATO pump is isolated.

 

 

Stage 6 - Refill

 

12V: The refill pump pumps water back into the tank. The level rises, and the low level float switch opens. The LLLR, however, remains powered through the 'sealing' contact.

 

 

120V: MCR is on. LLLR is on. Current passes through the refill pump. ATO pump is isolated.

 

 

Stage 7 - Finish and Reset

 

12V: The refill pump completely refills the tank, lifting the high level float switches. This cuts power to the LHMR. This cuts power to both the MCR and LLLR, unsealing both. Circuit returns to original state.

 

 

120V: MCR is off. LHMR is off. No pump operates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope that made it clear, but....well.....I know it probably didn't. Sorry.

[kgehrke]

Nice, I took a EE course a year ago but got a hold of a solution guide. Maybe it'll come to me after its all set up haha. Good luck!

[neanderthalman]

Thanks kgehrke. Posting this makes me want to go ahead and build the prototype, but I need to funnel my resources into the tank and stand.

 

I think tomorrow I will go get/order the tank itself. Then I can start drilling and start on the stand using actual real-world dimensions.

 

The only moderately complex thing in the circuit is the transistor with an RC timer. Even that is very basic from an EE standpoint. The rest is simple logic.

 

BTW, this is Version 8.2 or something like that. I had a PLC at one point, I had 120V relays once, I had a PIC16F88 microprocessor in there for several iterations. This is just so simple, so easy, and so cheap, that it just blows the others out of the water.

 

Downside? No programming a weekly schedule, for fully 'automatic' water changes.

Upside? No programming, period.

[kgehrke]

Cool stuff. I'm not a fan of programing at all. Here's a few sites that are supposed to help you build a stand. I'm sure you already know what you want, but if you care to take a look:

Stand Site 1

Stand Site 2

[nanoty]

Your diagrams make me angry

[neanderthalman]

Your diagrams make me angry

 

Sorry.

 

 

I tried. I really did.

[Maeda]

Your diagrams make me angry

 

How a parts list for the truely lazy?

 

I get it. Time to start hording parts.

3 float switchs

and 3 pumps dedicated to this.

 

o.O

 

Can you change the cap for the ATO failure to last longer? Im guessing yes but just double checking. I think a few of us are using super slow aqualifters that tanke 3-4 minutes to fill anything.

 

Thanks! This circuit looks like just what I need to goof around with. well worth the wait:D

[stoney waters]

Looks good to my primitive mind, cant wait to see it come together in 3-D.

 

Can you design a program to help me sleep at night. ATO's alone scare me to death.

[neanderthalman]

How a parts list for the truely lazy?

 

I get it. Time to start hording parts.

3 float switchs

and 3 pumps dedicated to this.

 

o.O

 

Can you change the cap for the ATO failure to last longer? Im guessing yes but just double checking. I think a few of us are using super slow aqualifters that tanke 3-4 minutes to fill anything.

 

Thanks! This circuit looks like just what I need to goof around with. well worth the wait:D

 

I'm working on a bill of materials right now to put together an order. Roughly, the parts list is as follows:

 

Circuit:

4 DPDT relays

4 diodes (not shown)

1 push button

1 momentary push button

1 power switch

1 capacitor

1 potentiometer

1 LED

1 resistor

3 185V varistors (not shown)

12V AC adapter

3 float switches

1 Perforated board

 

Case I intend to put it in:

1 3 gang surface mount galvanized receptacle box (could use a nonmetallic, but I'm cheap)

2 duplex receptacles, hot side split

1 cover plate - 2 receptacles, one blank

1 cable strain relief

1 grounded power cord

 

 

The value of the resistor depends on the LED you use for indication, or both can be omitted or replaced with a 12V buzzer. Whatever you like. The capacitor and potentiometer values will depend entirely on how long you want to allow the ATO to run for before it triggers a fault. The whole reason for the potentiometer is to make it adjustable so it can be dialed in to your specific needs.

 

To get the timer to run for several minutes instead of several seconds, you'll need a larger capacitor (or potentiometer), but there's no reason it cannot be done. I can't seem to find my calculations, so when I find them I'll post what values I'm going to use in order to have a variable timer from 0-10s, and what you'd need to have a timer that can go from 0-5mins or so.

 

The diodes are for kickback, and are wired in reverse polarity across the relay coils. The same goes for the varistors, but wired across the receptacles for the pumps. This site has a good explanation of what kickback diodes are for, at the bottom of the page. The varistors do the same job as the kickback diodes, but for AC.

 

If you can wait, I do intend to post, eventually, a complete bill of materials with costs.

[latazyo]

sorry I didnt comment earlier

 

great choice on the bulbs, that is the same one that I use and it is perfect in color

 

you will probably find that the eggcrate makes your overflow too loud

 

this is what happened to mine, the water (as it goes over the overflow) has to travel further in the horizontal direction, so it falls and splashes instead of just flowing down the glass quietly

 

at least that's what happened in mine, so i just have a gaping hole, so far so good (because my drain is way bigger than the flow I put through it...1.5")

[NoMSG]

They're just trying to steal my money because they think they think I have no alternative. Not like I'd give my business to MarineDepot anyhow, after what they did to a few of our members....

 

Curious, what did they do to some of our members? I was thinking about going there in a couple of weeks to get some LR. A friend of mine goes there all the time and loves the place.

[neanderthalman]

sorry I didnt comment earlier

 

great choice on the bulbs, that is the same one that I use and it is perfect in color

 

you will probably find that the eggcrate makes your overflow too loud

 

this is what happened to mine, the water (as it goes over the overflow) has to travel further in the horizontal direction, so it falls and splashes instead of just flowing down the glass quietly

 

at least that's what happened in mine, so i just have a gaping hole, so far so good (because my drain is way bigger than the flow I put through it...1.5")

 

Hrm. That displeases me. I think I understand what you mean.

 

Without the eggcrate, the water will run over the top, and stick to the outside of the overflow like the following diagram. It's adhesion and viscosity will slow it's decent. It will also never break into droplets and free-fall.

 

 

With the eggcrate, the added thickness at the top of the overflow will cause the water to free-fall straight down. It will break into droplets, and splash in the bottom, making a hell of a lot of noise. Like so:

 

 

 

hrm. glad I didn't build the SOB yet.

 

 

 

 

What do you think about putting the eggcrate down low in the overflow, between the two bulkheads, such that it is below the surface of the water at normal operations? The water should fall like with a normal overflow, but I could still keep the low profile.

 

I wonder if I can get away with not serrating the top of the overflow, but part of me thinks I really should, in order to keep fish, etc, from falling through and becoming trapped on top of the eggcrate.

[neanderthalman]

Curious, what did they do to some of our members? I was thinking about going there in a couple of weeks to get some LR. A friend of mine goes there all the time and loves the place.

 

Several of our members were also members on their forums. Eric Borneman, a "reef expert", is also a member on their forums. More of Eric's asshattery came to light in the lounge, so a couple of our members signed up on their forums to ask Eric some difficult questions, and, well, just generally be pricks to him. Good fun, but he didn't see it that way.

 

This so-called 'expert' had the forum administrators ban these members, which was fine, but they went further. They decided to ban any usernames that matched those they found on nano-reef - even though these people had said nothing about or to Eric on the marinedepot forums.

 

Banning somebody for being a member of a separate forum is ludicrous, even if they felt that these members "may" eventually post inflammatory comments. That, my good friend, is simple prejudice, and in my eyes is no different than suggesting we arrest all black people because they "may" become criminals. It's flat out wrong to do that to people, and thus, I will not give them a dime. I will never again recommend their store to anybody, though I once though highly of them. It is that disturbing to me.

[Maeda]

I can wait.

If you promise a PCB I can wait longer.

 

But really, all joking aside, i'll wait. It wont be going on my current tank anyway.

[neanderthalman]

So. One thing I know crap all about is skimmers. I know how they work. I know that they work. I know I want a badass one that will produce nice dark dry skimmate.

 

Trouble is, which one should I plan to get? I need to start thinking about how much space I need inside the stand. If anyone wants to toss out a few names of skimmers to look into, and any I should avoid, it'd be much appreciated.

 

One thing I do know is that air stone driven = suck. This hunk of crap, while it skims, it's producing only a wet skimmate, and not a whole lot of it. I'm going to pick up a replacement airstone this weekend to see if that improves operations a bit.

[neanderthalman]

Thanks for all the skimmer suggestions guys.

 

 

Here's what I'm planning for the stand.

 

 

2x4 frame:

 

 

The skin will be 1", uh, wood. Haven't decided on species yet. Price point will be the determining factor.

[IPv6Freely]

Dead sexy

[kgehrke]

Cool stuff!

[kenthenanoguy]

Very nice!

 

You really have nothing to do at work!

[Maeda]

Sorry i wasn't paying attention. I was busy breaking my ATO apart to commence AWC build #297.

 

 

As far as skimmers go. You get what you pay for, but watch what you get. Does that make sense?

Like don't buy a 100$ seaclown because you'll get something worth about 10$, but this does not mean go out and buy a bk mini for 1000$. There's a happy middle range that costs $250-$500 where you get a lot of skimmer for the money, and spending more then that yields diminishing returns (unless you have a realllly BIG tank).

 

For a 40 breeder I would pick(from my first pics to last pics) the smallers H&S you can get, a tunze 9005, deltec mc500 or ap600, the new SWC xtreme 160, a euroreef rs80.

 

I don't like the build on ASMs at all. Any combo unit sucks(or doesn't suck enough) but you already knew that. The ER is better but not by much. The only companies with stand out build quality are Royal Exclusive, ATI, Deltec, and PM. The other high dollar skimmers you're putting the money into the pump and R&D more then the skimmer itself.

 

The weakest link in a skimmer is always always the pump. You have to pay good ducats to get a good pump (eheim, sicce, RD, etc.) If something comes with a no brand made in china mystery pump, chances are the skimmer is junk.

[travisurfer]

awesome

[neanderthalman]

For a 40 breeder I would pick(from my first pics to last pics) the smallers H&S you can get, a tunze 9005, deltec mc500 or ap600, the new SWC xtreme 160, a euroreef rs80.

 

 

Thanks for the primer Maeda, that'll get me going on the skimmer selections.

 

I haven't forgotten the BOM either. Right now the stumbling block is the operators themselves. Pushbuttons are pricey when new. I'm going to hit up a nearby electronics surplus store soon to see what I can come up with.

 

I was hoping that I could just give everyone a detailed bill of materials and where to get them, but it looks like anyone wanting to copy this is going to have to figure out the buttons for themselves. I'm not gonna spend $22 on a pushbutton when I know damn well I can get it for $2 at the surplus store.

 

 

Thanks for the comments everyone

[Maeda]

Momentary toggle switches?

 

These buggers are about 5$ or less near me.

 

If you can hold off buying a skimmer for a month or two, i'll be ready to let my deltec mc500 go. I'm moving on to something much much larger.

[neanderthalman]

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about Maeda. Not that exact form factor, but the price is more what I'm talking about. Switches and buttons should only be a couple bucks, not twenty. Didn't make it to the electronics store this weekend, but I did pick up something else.....

 

 

 

Note the extra-sexy black silicone. Wheee!

 

 

I'll think about that skimmer Maeda

[FateX9]

just curious but why does everyone like black silicon?