want to start 20 gallon nano, first SW setup

[Andy16]

Ive been hoping to make my tank SW for months now and i still haev some questions. First of all, do i need a protein skimmer and a UV sterilizer? I know that LR is just about all the filtration i need, and i heard that you dont need bio-wheels yet other people say taht you should have one. I have a penguin so should i take out the bio-wheel? I decided that i am going to leave my HOB filters on sicne it cant hurt.

also, sicne the tank that ill be turning into SW is already cycled, would i need to cycle it again with new water, or just keep the water a add the salt, LR and LS?

i might be able to get LR from my brothers tank but im not sure yet. i hope so cuz i dont want to wait until i can afford it. How many pounds of LR will i need anyways?

 

thanks in advance!

[blk_g20]

i also have a 20 gal. mine is 20H. i just purchased 30lb of rocks from gulf-view.com earlier today. suppose to get to me tomorrow, all the way across the contry to California. right now i put in 4" of sand. with the live arag stuff on top of dry sand. i've also purchased and receive yesterday the CL 2x65W fixture. makes my tank look really bright cus the white sand is reflecting most of it. dont quote me but i dont think your water from cycled FW tank (i'm assuming its fresh water) will serve as a cycled SW tank by just adding salt. others know and will chime in. i also have an HOB (AC200) just to break the water surface.

[Andy16]

the water wont serve for teh SW tank(i had that same ? answered) another question i had was if LR could seed dry sand if you didnt get any LS.

also when u get ur LR, could u post a pick of what it looks like in ur tank? i want an idea of how much LR to use.

[Deimos]

Oh boy kids....first off...READ!! Then READ some more...and then even more...and more still!! NO...your cycled freshwater tank will not still be "cycled" if you convert it to saltwater. LR...use as much as you can fit in your tank if you want...less if you want...its a matter of aesthetics. If you go less than 1lb/gallon (depending on how dense the rock is) you may have biofilter issues. Yes, LR will seed dry sand...but it may not seed it completely (that is..it may not have all the critters on it that you want in your sand bed), so go out and get about a pound of LS and toss it on top of your sandbed. PC lighting is okay...but if you want a real reef..go metal halide..end of story...see my signature. You probably ought to skim..especially if you're new to SW. It makes things a bit more forgiving. UV sterilizers are junk for reefs IMO, because you want things (bacteria, etc) in your water...they're part of a natural ecosystem. If you can't afford everything to do a proper job at this..then don't do it at all...you're just wasting your money and the lives of the organisms you'll eventually try and fail to keep.

 

I can't stress this enough...READ...everything you can get your hands on about reefing. Go out and actually BUY books. Read some of the great information and forums out there on the web. A little knowledge will save you hundreds of dollars and probably dozens of fish and invert lives.

[Deimos]

Oh..and one other thing....if you're using tap water to reef...forget about it...within 4 months your tank will be a great green wreck. You need to either invest in a RO/DI unit of your own..or buy RO/DI water from your LFS, etc.

 

Thats one more thing you'd know if you READ......

[Billdemart]

Deimos makes some good points, even if he sounds a little haughty. But you don't need metal halide lights for a nano-reef. Unless your planning on keeping clams or lots of hard corals I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Andy I would read all of the wonderful articles on this website first and maybe grab a couple of books like Delbeek and Sprungs "The Reef Aquarium." Very helpful book.

[Andy16]

WHOA, calm down there buddy. Im 13, dont think i can get metal halide lights. What is this website for again? O yeah, information. Anyways, i love to do maintanence so i dont that will be a problem. Ill get a protein skimmer if you all think its taht necessary. And once again i knew more then half of what you told me. I already have READ. Ive read the articles more then once, if not more then twice. I wont be keeping corals right away since its not something i need. If you want me to READ some more, i can borrow some of my brothers books. I already have sand and i dont want to get LS to seed it because i dont want to mess up the color of the sand. I got it from florida, i live in wisconsin. I heard that you can by the organisms that live in LS over the internet too if you didnt use LS to seed it.

[Andy16]

so far for the things i need to buy i have live rock, protein skimmer, surface skimmer, salt, i still dont knwo about live sand, and thats all i can think of right now. i dotn think im going to go all out on a protein skimmer because ive heard different opinions saying that you dont need one or you do need one.

[Vincerama]

Andy, This is what I've read and learned...(in a nutshell)

 

Get a surface skimming protein skimmer. Surface skimming means using a skimming box (basically a box that lets water cascade in from the surface and takes the water from this box) Crap tends to build up on the surface. Get a good protein skimmer and just make a surface skimmer box (check the web...) ... unless you decide not to get a skimmer at all! Then just do regular water changes.

 

The water is important! Tell your parents that a Reverse Osmosis water filtration unit would be great for drinking water and the reef tank. Otherwise you can buy RO water at the grocery store.

 

I use power compact lights, as do a LOT of people. Metal Halides are nice, if you can afford them, and if you have space to put them. I'd get them, but my apartment is small and I really don't need the FREAKING SUN in my living room.

 

LR is good, get that! Getting some live sand would be nice too, but not absolutely necessary. If you have sand already (check the type, you want aragonite or coral sand, not silica sand!) And you should be OK.

 

You are on the right track. My advice is to save up money to get everything you need before starting! Then take your time!

 

Vince

[Andy16]

For the surface skimmer i was thinking hte kind i can hook up to a HOB type since i have 2 of those. i might as well spend $30 on the cheapest pretein skimmer i could find, since ill do water changes anyways. The sand was from destin florida, so i dont know what kind it is. It was from the beach and it was in hte ocean so i guess that always works:P i just remember that we had this drinking water thing, it is like a seperate tank downstairs that it comes from. i could go check what it is if you think that it would work. Im thinking about keeping my current lights, which i have idea what it is, im just going to get the brightest bulb possible. I dont have taht much money to spend on lights i dont think.

[blissdon]

Andy 16, 13 years old and reefer ready. Well, dude, I'm 47 and can't seem to afford MH lighting. I've hit myself over the head but that doesn't help. Still not enough bucks.

Not having the bucks sucks. Worse still, setting up a half ass tank and having your beautiful creatures die as a result. Save some $$$. You don't have to go all out on a protein skimmer. Don't buy the cheapest one you can find. Check online stores. Find something decent and save some bucks to buy it.

IMHO, you need MH or power compact lighting. I bought a "Compact Pendant" from "Champion Lighting." Cost is less than $200.00 and I consider it top quality. It should serve you well if you don't get too fancy on your tank guests.

I use my bio wheel. Nothing dies. I also use my skimmer 24/7. My personal opinion is that the jury is still out on protein skimming but not on lighting.

Skip the UV. The $$$ are better spent elsewhere. Forget tap water. "Vincerama" has good advice. Believe me, when I was new at this I used dechlorinated tap water. I went to distilled water and the results were beyond belief. I'm putting in a R/O unit next weekend. Look around. They can be had for under a hundred bucks. If your brother/parents are willing to chip in, a nice unit with a faucet and storage tank can be had for about $150.00.

Keep reading (it will make you crazy.) Don't buy crap products. Be patient.

Believe me, it's better to get it right in the begining, even if you have to wait a little longer for it. Please keep us posted. I can't wait for the written wars that your new tank will provide us the opportunity to wage. Good luck! Kenny

[Vincerama]

Yeah, I suggest parental, filial help! Though when I was 13, I did odd jobs to buy myself a bicycle. Also, I taught myself BASIC on the TRS-80 Colour Computer my Dad brought home one day. Now I'm an engineer in Silicon Valley...based on that logic, I think some parental guidance/support might help build a marine biologist out of Andy16...Well, use that as a parental prompt, maybe it will get them to spring for some good lights!

 

I have to say that if I had a 13 year old who wanted to get into this hobby, I would definitely encourage it as an educational experience, and a good way to learn responsibility (etc, etc) so good for you Andy! Good luck! Save your money for the good equipment!

 

Vince

[Andy16]

so your opinion is spend the cash on the lights, and forget the protein skimmer. jsut so you all know this wont really be a reef tank. it might have a few corals here or there but thats all until i can get the proper lights. It still depends how much money i earn from mowing lawns.(what an awesome job ) i might be albe to get everything in one shot. highly doubtful though. i think ill buy the skimmer first so it get cycled with the tank during hte cycling process. I guess it will be an LR only tank until i can afford some better lights. my parents dont like the whole idea about hte aquariums. Im still talking them into SW, this time it will work though. I already failed one attempt. Im going to get help from my brother who got me into the hobby. I dont get it, i put up with a year of having a 1 gallon FW tank, then like 4 years with a 6 gallon tank, now i have this 20 gallon that has been FW for 4 months. i think its time to try something new. so i dont think my parents will help me out with the cash on this one. Unlike their willing to spend $1000 on a bike:D i guess they like my other hobby better, moutain bike racing. We have a drinkign water setup that is in our basement. i could probably get all my water from there is it is the RO/DI stuff.

[skeletor]

see andy, that's where you made your mistake, you should have got into SW first and not wasted you parents money on FW. :-)

 

it's good to spend some time looking at different people's tanks and figuring out what sort of fish, corals, inverts, etc you want to keep. there are lots of nice tank pics here on NR that will give you some idea of what to expect from different corals, fish, etc. Anyway, the point of this is that these animals come from a variety of different environments and you need to decide early on what sort of environment you are going to keep. Once you have some idea of what you want to keep think about designing the tank to best suit that environment. this will determine weather you need a skimmer, a refugium, a sump, or whatever.

 

this hobby is an expensive one, not only in setup costs but there are ongoing costs as well, but I'm not going to lecture you because this isn't just a mere hobby, it's an obsession and it should be treated like one :-)

 

so, post a pic of that drinkign water setup ya got in the basement, someone here should be able to tell you what you've got. if it's a pure drinking water setup then it will not have a DI stage, have no fear because you can add one, and bypass this for drinking water. the other thing you'll want to do is convince your folks that the filter media needs changing and get a 1 micron first stage filter (or better). then read up on how to tune an RO/DI unit and you're off to a better start than most.

 

here are some important things to know about a reef tank:

1. water quality is key.

2. lighting is (almost) everything.

3. you must learn patients young grasshopper.

 

you'll see lots of different setups here and some things work for some peoples tanks and some things work on others. you have to figure out what works for you.

 

you can also save a lot of money DIYing stuff. Lighting is something where you can save some serious coin. go retro and build youself a hood. for about $65 you can get a complete 2 x 55w retro kit with some kick ass reflectors, for about $10 in wood and a couple of nails you've got a hood (don't forget a fan). then just pick some good PC bulbs (read about the different color temps, and different brands, especially when it comes to actinic bulbs), these will set you back about $25 each, oh and if that isn't enough the bulbs must be replaced every 12 months.

 

how about getting the tank drilled and using that old 6 gallon tank as a refugium ?

 

ok, I think I've said enough and should probably shut up now. I have a 20gal BTW.

 

-skeletor-

[Andy16]

Once you have some idea of what you want to keep think about designing the tank to best suit that environment. this will determine weather you need a skimmer, a refugium, a sump, or whatever.

 

Ill probably get a pseudochromis of some kind. I dont know if the type you get matters or if some arent compatible. A pair of true or false percs, not sure yet, ill get waht i can find. What about those flame angels? those are cool but dont know anything about them. Probably a basslet of some kind, like a royal gramma. A six line wrasse. For inverts, an emerald crab, like 5 astrea snails, some blue legged hermit crabs, a cleaner shrimp and maybe some other shrimps too. Keep on mind that i realize that if i put all of these fish in my tank it would be overstocked. These are just some ideas that i have.

 

so, post a pic of that drinkign water setup ya got in the basement, someone here should be able to tell you what you've got. if it's a pure drinking water setup then it will not have a DI stage, have no fear because you can add one, and bypass this for drinking water. the other thing you'll want to do is convince your folks that the filter media needs changing and get a 1 micron first stage filter (or better). then read up on how to tune an RO/DI unit and you're off to a better start than most.

 

I dont have a scanner or a digital camera so i cant do this. I can tell you what it says on the container thing though. As far as i know the has three tube things and i read taht a complete RO/DI thing has 4 stages.

 

 

you can also save a lot of money DIYing stuff. Lighting is something where you can save some serious coin. go retro and build youself a hood. for about $65 you can get a complete 2 x 55w retro kit with some kick ass reflectors, for about $10 in wood and a couple of nails you've got a hood (don't forget a fan). then just pick some good PC bulbs (read about the different color temps, and different brands, especially when it comes to actinic bulbs), these will set you back about $25 each, oh and if that isn't enough the bulbs must be replaced every 12 months.

 

I could probably do this. My brothers a carpenter and my other brothers an electrician:)

 

how about getting the tank drilled and using that old 6 gallon tank as a refugium ?

 

That mught count as two tanks in my moms eyes.

[blissdon]

Andy 16. Please keep us posted. Some pics would be nice. Good luck...

[Andy16]

thanks blissdon. im still open for comment and suggestions!!!!

[Captain_Nemo]

Andy, While I have only been reefing for a little over a year, I have learned many things, and before you know it, you will become somewhat comfortable and have a grasp of whats going on. Just dont expect to know everything. There are some guys that have done it for 15 years, and are still learning new things.

How involved you want it to be is up to you, but the guys here have steered you in the right direction so far.

A protein skimmer is a good safety net, but funny a year ago, it was obscene to use a skimmer on a nano. Seems times are still changing. Reefing is still a VERY YOUNG hobby, when compared to other hobbies.

 

One thing to save you money and headaches though, is to start out with good water quality. I dont think you need to get an RO/DI unit though. A simple DI unit is more than enough, at least for now anyways. No water waste, and very cheap.

 

The Tap Water purifier at Drs. Foster and Smith is a good product. I have been using it for a year now, and do no have any problems with algae/cyano, outbreaks. No phosphates/silica detected and TDS readings of 0 or <1.

 

 

Halides are wonderful, but man start out with some PCs and see if ya even like the hobby. Besides, halides will generate some serious heat, and its one more thing you will need to contend with. Get some PCs, start with easy to care for stuff like shrooms (Though you may regret that one later, mine spread so fast, its become weed-like), button polyps, or Star Polyps. If you are successful and still interested then you can move on to stuff like torches or frogspawn.

By the time you have gotten to that point, then you will better understand whats going on, and have a feel of what you may want to do, or how far you want to take your reef.

 

 

The most imortant thing though is to take everything SLOW, and to have patience. The one thing you will learn very fast is, that it doesnt take long to screw something up or for something to go bad, but it DOES take a while to correct something that has gone wrong. Dont expect immediate results.

 

 

Good Luck to ya

 

Johnny

[zizmans]

I would get a skimmer. Even those who don't use them keep them on hand. I didn't catch the size of the tank (gallons)? It is important for when you look at fish. Flame angels need an established tank (at least 6 months) with LR for constant grazing. They also have to be fed a varied diet of marine algae, spirulina, mysid and other meaty foods. Not only that, 2-3 times per day. Not a good beginner fish. Depending on the size of your tank, a damsel is a cool looking, super tough fish for a beginner. Read EVERYTHING under the "information" button at the top of this page

[Andy16]

A protein skimmer is a good safety net, but funny a year ago, it was obscene to use a skimmer on a nano. Seems times are still changing. Reefing is still a VERY YOUNG hobby, when compared to other hobbies.

 

Thats why im goin with the cheap skimmer, too many different opinions on it.

 

 

One thing to save you money and headaches though, is to start out with good water quality. I dont think you need to get an RO/DI unit though. A simple DI unit is more than enough, at least for now anyways. No water waste, and very cheap.

 

Have that water on hand.

 

 

 

 

Halides are wonderful, but man start out with some PCs and see if ya even like the hobby. Besides, halides will generate some serious heat, and its one more thing you will need to contend with. Get some PCs, start with easy to care for stuff like shrooms (Though you may regret that one later, mine spread so fast, its become weed-like), button polyps, or Star Polyps. If you are successful and still interested then you can move on to stuff like torches or frogspawn.

 

Ive been in FW for like 4 years now so i think i like hte hobby:) I think im goin DIY on hte lights so its what ever is easiest.

 

 

As for the flame angels, that would be one of the last fish i buy then in that case. Once i now what im doing in hte SW world i think i can handle it. My tank is 20g. Damsels are too much of a pain from what ive heard. They dont fasinate me too much either. I know they are considered like the cichlids of SW but the cichlids of FW are 20x cooler:P

[blissdon]

Andy 16...Captain_Nemo has some interesting info in the post. I agree... Go with the PC'S. Here you have a reefer that is successfully using a DI only unit successfully for a year. Interesting... I also agree to "go slow." Any chance your family are willing to help you? Kenny

[Andy16]

uh...... my parents wont, my brother will. My parents are against it in all ways. Thats how it usually goes.

[Andy16]

well, since i think i know jsut about all i can about setting it up, how whould i approach my mom with the big question?

[Deimos]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....If you can't afford to do EVERYTHING properly....don't do it at all. And I'm not saying don't do it EVER..but don't do it until you've got the money saved. I tried to do my first nano "on the cheap"..and I killed more things than I'd care to list here. I've wasted money on NO, VHO, and PC lighting setups..only to realize that MH really IS the way to go. I'm sorry to have sounded harsh earlier...but you aren't the first, or the last person, to write this kind of thread...and it sometimes gets tiresome to list out all the things that can possibly be done incorrectly...and you started off with some big ones. As far as the reading goes...I still can't stress that enough. This site isn't the only one with great resources..some other VERY VERY highly recommendable ones are: www.wetwebmedia.com (great site...Anthony Calfo, Bob Fenner, et al. have all contributed to the FAQs on the site and its possibly the greatest all around reference on the net), www.reefs.org (a really great site...big message boards with lots of experienced reefers...including a special nano board. Also the home of Advanced Aquarist Online magazine...another great resource with articles from all the big names, Sprung, Delbeek, etc.), and www.reefcentral.com (absolutely HUGE message boards...including a nano board...and the host site of a lot of local clubs). Read and learn.

 

As for other things....go with a good skimmer..not a cheap one..you won't regret it. But again...like I said..go with a good everything...because if you go cheap..things die. Oh...and don't believe everything you hear from other aquarists..especially the old wive's tale stuff (case in point..the aragonite vs. silica sand deal...silica sand leaches nearly no silica into saltwater..period..read the research!)

 

Until next time.....

[Andy16]

I can afford it all, but it will just take me longer. I never said i couldnt afford it, i said it might take me a while to get the money. I understand your intentions, but your scaring away a lot of potentailly good reefers. As far as the lighting goes, if i DIY the lights, how much cheaper would they be? not meaning that they wouldnt be as nice, i might be able to make myself a super nice PC setup for the same price as a junky MH set up. From what ive said before, i will not be keeping corals and hi light things like that. As for the cheap protein skimmer, im still un decided, people say its not totally needed if you do normal water changes, yet others say that it is a must. I figured that i would do normal water changes and get a protein skimmer but not an expensive one because of the varied opinions.