effectiveness of small volume refugiums

[SPS20]

This thread has officially been completely hijacked. I think the plane will explode, killing everyone in the room and destroying the treadmill.

[lil'wrasse cool]

ummm...I got a 3gal refuge works great.. good chaeto growth under a 8W CF.. also lots of feather dusters and sponge growth in darker areas..

[soundman]

Se habla engles?

 

You guys are getting WAY to into this....

But you see, they're doing what they love to do. An engineer's favorite recreation is arguing. Like the joke says: Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud.....after a while, you realize the pig is enjoying it way too much.

[MattD]

I didn't read through the whole thread, nor a I nearly as experienced as most other reefers here, but isn't a refugiums effectiveness directly related to the size of the tank it's processing? For example, a 5.5G fuge for an 8G is extremely effective as opposed to a 5.5G fuge for say a 55G?

[Weetabix7]

But you see, they're doing what they love to do. An engineer's favorite recreation is arguing. Like the joke says: Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud.....after a while, you realize the pig is enjoying it way too much.

 

What the hey, it actually allowed andy to have a little fun at his job today.

 

Diane- we're working on the fuge for you, check your PM box!

 

Mr Fosi- I like your idea of adding a 5.5 fuge to a 5.5 display; I think I just might do it after Christmas!

 

BTW, did anyone notice that soundman has really cool sig???

[soundman]

BTW, did anyone notice that soundman has really cool sig???

[Weetabix7]

AND he likes SG!

Yer my kind of geek, soundman!

 

Back to the refugium discussion...

I think it would be cool if someone shrunk Wonder Woman's invisible airplane and made a refugium out of it!

Anyone???

[neanderthalman]

You'd have to put it on a treadmill to keep it in place, but that'd be pretty cool in of itself.

[SbCaes]

Ok guys, Now heres one for you.

 

Back to the Effectiveness of small refugiums.

 

Now say if someone has a 40 breeder with macros in the display already.

 

What effect other than the increased water volume would a small refugium have on this tank? or any other tank in general if there are already macros in the display?

 

Does the increased amount of macros really make that much of a difference in a case liek this? given a 40 breeder with macros in display with say a 12 gallon sump (7 gallons effective use?)

 

What benefit is there of a setup like that?

[Weetabix7]

Stabilization of PH if fuge is run on a reverse lighting cycle.

 

Plus you get to be a hip reefer.

[c est ma]

Okay, I know nothing about fuges, but doesn't it also serve as a fuge for pod populations that can then replenish your tank, if you have fish that need them?

 

--Diane

[SPS20]

Refugia potentially yield the following benefits:

 

1 - Constant passive feeding of amphipods, copepods, isopods, and mysiids to the reef

2 - Nutrient export (phosphate, nitrate, etc)

3 - pH stabilization as a result of a more stable dissolved gas balance (if run on a reverse daylight cycle)

4 - adds water volume to the system (which generally makes things more stable)

5 - if an aragonite DSB is used in the refugium, a refugium can potentially reduce nitrate and boost calcium/Alk levels. Use caution with DSB's however. They can be very effective, but they are also pretty easy to do wrong.

 

How effectively a refugium does these things depends on alot of things, obviously. Lets tease out what the variables really are. off the top of my head:

 

1 - water volume. bigger is always better.

2 - lighting. (photoperiod, intensity, and spectral distribution)

3 - water flow. (there is some disagreement whether slow flow is best in a refugium)

4 - what organisms are used (plants, filter feeders, etc) and how much

5 - substrate composition and depth. (rubble, gravel, sand, bare bottom?) This will strongly influence the type of fauna that proliferate best. Different "pods" are more successful on substrates with a certain particle size. Particle size and depth also affect the amount of nitrate that the sand bed can reduce.

6 - Size of substrate cross section. how much surface area is there?

7 - time. refugiums take a little while to balance out once they are set up; it takes the critters a little while to reach populations sufficient to really have an impact on the system. The same applies for algae growth; Alot of algae removes more nutrients than a small sprig of it. Of course, it needs to be harvested periodically so it won't choke itself out and to actually export the nutrients from the system.

 

You tweak those variables, you tweak the effectiveness of the refugium for whatever purpose, IMO.

 

... just food for thought ...

 

- Josh

[BlndFshNoIz]

Yes I think a 5 gallon fuge on a 20 gallon tank would benefit your tank's overall health. The thing that would be most important is maximum use of the limited space. It seems that for this your opinions include: DSB, macro algae and LR, and/or other such as xenia as well as how it is set up such as the dual sump complex as described by Mr. Wilson over on RC and on the reef videos site.

If you used something like xenia you could design baffles that would be LR as well and be able to remove them to sell the xenia. Just something to think about.

[c est ma]

Josh,

 

Thanks for the typically great summation. I've saved it to my "Josh file."

 

 

 

BlndFshNoIz,

 

Nice ideas! As someone with Xenia that needs to be thinned often, it gets me thinking...

 

 

--Diane

[SPS20]

Josh,

 

Thanks for the typically great summation. I've saved it to my "Josh file."

BlndFshNoIz,

 

Nice ideas! As someone with Xenia that needs to be thinned often, it gets me thinking...

--Diane

 

Ooooo I have a file? I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now.

 

I have heard of Xenia being used for nutrient export. I imagine its not as efficient as algae, but a hell of a lot prettier. Plus, you could actually make some money off the Xenia you harvest, whereas algae isn't exactly worth alot.

 

If you were going to use Xenia this way, may I suggest you provide some sort of media for the Xenia to grow on besides the glass/acrylic of a refugium, so you don't have unattached colonies when you go to harvest instead of attached (and more saleable) colonies.

 

In my aquarium I keep a little field of Xenia off to the right. Its essentially a pile of small rubble chunks. When a new Xenia pops up, I surround it with little chunks so it can't spread onto my base rock and take over my tank. Every few weeks I take a few Xenia stalks out (with the little rocks they are on) and replace them with more rubble for the others to spread onto. I do this because I really enjoy Xenia, and think its beautiful, but I don't want to have a giant monospecific field of it.

 

When I had my 120, I let the Xenia go just to see how fast it would grow. After a few months, it had taken over a third of the tank. It was beautiful, but completely out of control. Obviously, in little 20 long, it wouldn't take long before it choked out everything else in the tank. So, I developed my little ghetto containment method, and it seems to be working pretty well. I'm not sure i'm really exporting much in the way of nutrients, but the algae from my refugium doesn't help pay for the tank, my Xenia does.

[JulienB]

I don't know much about fuge volumes and their efficiency but thought I'd let you in on my personal experience with a small fuge.

 

I have a 20 gallon tank, no skimmer and I converted an AC110 into a fuge. I keep half inch of fine aragonite and some LR rubble (3 pieces about 1.5" each). I have 32lbs of LR in the display tank. It's all been running for a bit over 2 months now.

 

My Nitrates are still reading 0 after two months and I've been feeding the tank daily. I'm only doing 20% water changes every 2 weeks. I'm not saying that Nitrates won't eventually increase, but so far they've been kept in check. My Macro (Chaeto and Red) is growing VERY fast and has been trimmed twice so far. Each time they had doubled in size. I keep my light on 24/7.

 

In terms of volume, the AC110 is very small for a 20 gallon tank, but it's getting the job done.

 

Julien

[c est ma]

Josh,

 

Oh, yes, you do have a file.

 

Thanks for the elucidation. One question--where does everyone get these little bits of rubble they have so handy? Or is it a matter of having had previous tanks? (I'm still on my first...)

 

If you think your Xenia quickly took over a 120, you can imagine what it does in my 5.5. I've actually bought it 3 times, now...the first two times, I returned it all to an lfs, but then I discovered I "missed it," and eventually "rebought" it again...It seems to be the only "tall, lacy" thing that does well for me, and as such I like to have it around. Happily it's grown onto my glass, which makes it easier to control (though I have a recently removed-from-the-rock frag that's available for anyone within driving distance). I may be adding a fuge, soon, so perhaps I'll be able to go into the Xenia business...

 

 

Julien, thanks for the encouraging post. Most helpful, and congrats on your success.

 

--Diane

[JulienB]

Diane,

 

Thanks. Most LFS that have live rock will have smaller pieces in the bottom of their holding tanks. you can also break off a few smaller pieces from your larger rocks but that shouldn't be necessary. My pieces of "rubble" are close to 2" in size while others might define rubble being smaller than 1". I don't know if it's doing much. I'm considering removing the sand and rock to allow more room for macro growth, which is the ultimate goal for me.

 

I know a lot of people use Chaeto, and I have a small ball in my fuge. But I have to say that the Red macro algae is growing much faster. The only problem is that some small "branches" can make their way into the display tank and clog the intakes if you don't trim regularly.

 

I don't have any xenia in the tank...yet. I'm still weighing my options. I will be introducing a feather duster soon.

 

Julien

[BlndFshNoIz]

Ooooo I have a file? I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now.

 

I have heard of Xenia being used for nutrient export. I imagine its not as efficient as algae, but a hell of a lot prettier. Plus, you could actually make some money off the Xenia you harvest, whereas algae isn't exactly worth alot.

 

If you were going to use Xenia this way, may I suggest you provide some sort of media for the Xenia to grow on besides the glass/acrylic of a refugium, so you don't have unattached colonies when you go to harvest instead of attached (and more saleable) colonies.

 

In my aquarium I keep a little field of Xenia off to the right. Its essentially a pile of small rubble chunks. When a new Xenia pops up, I surround it with little chunks so it can't spread onto my base rock and take over my tank. Every few weeks I take a few Xenia stalks out (with the little rocks they are on) and replace them with more rubble for the others to spread onto. I do this because I really enjoy Xenia, and think its beautiful, but I don't want to have a giant monospecific field of it.

 

When I had my 120, I let the Xenia go just to see how fast it would grow. After a few months, it had taken over a third of the tank. It was beautiful, but completely out of control. Obviously, in little 20 long, it wouldn't take long before it choked out everything else in the tank. So, I developed my little ghetto containment method, and it seems to be working pretty well. I'm not sure i'm really exporting much in the way of nutrients, but the algae from my refugium doesn't help pay for the tank, my Xenia does.

 

 

Dr. Shimek conducted a study on export and looked at heavy metals and nitrogen export. He stated that Xenia was effective at nitrogen removal on a weight basis. The downside is the slower growth when compared to algae. But as you said it can be attractive when compared to algae and can pay for the tank.

In my 29 gal mantis tank I made a LR wall specifically using eggcrate, hydralic water stop, and crushed oyster shell (sand can be used also) and I hold it in place using a clamp. The benefits include being able to move it and removing it, and the wall becoming live over time.

[c est ma]

Thanks again, Julien! More helpful info and some intriguing possibilities...

 

BlndFshNoIz, do you have a link with pics showing what you're describing? I can't quite picture it, but it sounds most interesting!

 

--Diane

[BlndFshNoIz]

Diane,

I thought that I had pictures but I have not taken any of this tank in several months. Maybe when the lights come on I could take one for you. I don't post pictures because I am too lazy but would email you one after I download my pictures. Is there a better way that I can describe it to you to help? Like I said there are advantages to having the LR wall such as hiding equipment such as a heater, increased nitrification vs. glass and a way to harvest the xenia. It is simple to make, for $25 you could make enough for a 4' x 2' foot wall, takes a few minutes (because it sets that fast) and cures in about 6 hours and can go in your tank the next day. If you were worried about a pH swing you could soak it first in WC water and test it rather than freshwater like other DIY rocks.

The article is somewhere over on the marine depot forum. I know that he wrote the article for reefkeeper magazine or something similar and is probably under his forum.

[OB1]

yeah, i've seen this question before too...

 

the answer is simple. no matter how fast the engines are screaming, the plane will remain motionless. no forward movement = no lift. no lift = no takeoff.

 

I just read this thread trying to learn about fuges.

 

This is why they pay engineers the big bucks? A treadmill spinning that planes wheels forward or backwards at a thousand miles per hour would not have one thing to do with the foward thrust of the plane. The only way that plane is not going to move foward is either tied down or in a wind tunnel that could match the speed of the foward thrust. In which case (in a wind tunnel) it would be flying.

 

But I did learn something about fuges....

[SnakPak]

I know I'm bringing up a really old thread here, but that's what the search button is for right? Anyways, I was curious about the fuge and LR rubble. Would I need to turkey baster the rubble that is in the fuge if it's part of my entire tank? I'm building a 20gallon long with 6" of it sectioned off for a fuge. Now when I do my water changes, am I going to have to baster the rocks that are in that fuge to suspend detritus in the water? Or should I just not worry about that? I'm just concerned about having additional detritus build up in my fuge if I were to use LR rubble.

 

On a side note..yes the plane would take off regardless of treadmill speed. I'm an engineer as well.

[Urchinhead]

Since you're an aerospace engineer I was wondering if you can answer a question for me.

 

If an airplane was on a treadmill, and the treadmill was able to match the airplanes speed, will it take off? (Huge argument on another forum about this question with supporters on both sides.)

 

FWIW and a bit late to the party but... Myth Busters had an episode on this where they proved that it will take off on a treadmill. Caught it last week when I was doing some plumbing work on my new tank.

[Urchinhead]

Having done a fuge with live rock and a DSB and Chaeto I would say the following...

 

Ditch everything but the chaeto unless you are using it as what I call a display fuge meaning that you want to have it looked at and look nice. Like a miniature biotope aquarium.

 

Bottom line is you are trying to export bad stuff and import good stuff. LRR gets detritus built up on it. DSB's are not easy to do right but easy to screw up. Cheato is your main form of nutrient export so rinse it regularly (unless you are growing pods) to keep detritus off of it and rotate it so the bottom parts get a shot at the light. Run a reverse light cycle so that your pH is more stable. Without all the added bells and whistles you get a much easier system to keep up with.