Cyanobacteria

[Nitro Joe]

Please don't flame me, but what does cyanobacteria do that is so harmful? I search cyanobacteria and find SOO many threads, but no direct answers to that question. Obviously people know it is "bad" for fish, but what does it do? Presently my two tanks are 2 months old and seem to be thriving, but there are patches of the stuff here and there. Predominant colors are dark grey and maroon. I have not gotten excited about this and assume the tank is just getting established. The firefish and tomato clown seem quite content, so I'm not terribly worried. Should I be? Knowing why cyanobacteria is deemed harmful may help me with what to watch for.

 

Thanks in advance.

Joe

[DeskJockey]

Well Ive never heard if it doing harm to fish. Its just your fish wont eat it cuz it tastes so bad.

 

Cyano is hated because it looks bad, spreads like crazy, & smothers corals. It can blanket a coral in a single day. If the corals cannot open for a few days they can die. And some corals slime like crazy when they begin to get covered creating other problems.

[tinyreef]

cyano can smother sedentary livestock and i believe it exudes toxins directly into the water column.

 

www-cyanosite.bio.purdue.edu/cyanotox/toxins.html

 

i would assume not all cyano species contribute the same degree of toxins as the infamous ones but in small closed systems even an overdose of vitamin A could kill everything off. hth

[Nitro Joe]

Good stuff. Thanks guys. Do cyanobacteria tend to loose out to more competetive organisms, ie. green algeas, corraline, etc?? What factors in a tank favor the growth of such named bacteria? I will continue to look around. Thanks again!

 

...actually that cyanobacteria site is not very helpful... :*(

[Masoch]

Do cyanobacteria tend to loose out to more competetive organisms, ie. green algeas, corraline, etc??

 

Well ... Cyano can cover all of the above, and eventually smother them.

 

However ... its main fuel is phosphates / phosphorus. Remove those, starve the cyano. Food (especially flakes), distilled water, and straight RO (not DI) water can all feed the phosphate cycle. I've added PhosGuard to my distilled water (for make-up and w/c's) and have seen my cyano level drop dramatically. And I've stopped feeding cheap-azz Hagen marine flakes. I still have a couple of patches, but my fighting conch happily grazes on them.

 

Most algaes are fuelled by nitrates ... so, really, cyano doesn't compete with algaes.

 

I had a big cyano problem a while back.

 

Other tips for avoiding cyano ...

 

Make your own food for the critters and freeze it;

Skim heavily / use a planted refugium / macros in the main tank (these will eat up organic phosphates in the water column);

Syphon out cyano patches (pipettes from testing kits are good for getting out nano-sized patches that float to the tank's surface).

[3twenty5]

chemi-clean will kit it in a day...the stuff is unreal...between a lil turkey basting and dosing chemi-pure...all gone in 24 hours

[caja]

I just turkey basted a patch of cyano that has snuck up on me again. That stuff grows so fast!

[Nitro Joe]

Phosphates... ok. I have some Kent Marine phosphate sponge I will plop into the skimmer spill-over box and I will let you know how that goes.

 

Make my own food? I am in the throws of setting up a 10 gallon to hatch brine shrimp to feed in living state rather than dead-thawed. Would that be helpful? I don't usually use flake food, but more pellet foods. I like the left-over settling to the bottom for the grazers to finish off. Any good dry foods anyone recommends? Right now I am using Nutrafin Max "marine complete food" which I give a small pinch once to twice a day. Within 2 minutes, I cannot find any floating around in the tank. The critters eat it up pretty fast.

 

Thanks for all the input and in advance for anymore you may offer.

[Masoch]

Hiya,

 

I'm not the right person for some of these questions ... but ... here goes anyway

 

Nutrafin Max is what I had fed my fish. I heard from many people that it's a bad, bad source of phosphates. But here's how my battle with cyano goes:

 

After getting a better skimmer (SeaClone -> Prizm), my cyano got a little better. After turfing The Nutrafin, my cyano got a bit better. After adding some PhosGuard ... it got a little bit better. After adding a poly pad, I got much of the dying cyano ... and it got a little better. But the poly, I'm convinced, contributed to my recent hair algae outbreak.

 

Now, after immediately w/c's, my tank is pretty clear of the red scourge. It builds up over the course of the week, but it's, well, getting better each week. I've recently had an upswing in hair algae, but I've just begun winning that battle. In general, it's a progression from cyano -> hair. It's all part of the new tank thang for me.

 

From what I've been reading, specifically a post by Eric Borneman at ReefCentral, you can ramp up to huge amounts of food for your tank, as long as you're willing to wait for your tank's processes to catch up. IMO, this will probably make your critters healthier and happier long term than virtually starving tham to keep nuisancle algaes down.

 

Just a thought.

[Nitro Joe]

Masoch says...

"From what I've been reading, specifically a post by Eric Borneman at ReefCentral, you can ramp up to huge amounts of food for your tank, as long as you're willing to wait for your tank's processes to catch up. IMO, this will probably make your critters healthier and happier long term than virtually starving tham to keep nuisancle algaes down."

 

That reef mush sounds like quite a production to make. What I need is a fish/reef club locally to spend a night making a huge batch in gross, splitting the work and time amoungst some other hobbyists. Anyone out there in central Illinois interested?

 

I agree with you Masoch. Allowing Mother Nature to do as much as possible will likely be the most "physiologic" and healthiest solution. ...but on the other hand, I guess I should find a pellet food that is low on phosphates? Any recommendations? The other thing I need to do is sit tight and wait this cycle out as long as no harm is coming to the tank community... Anyone have any patience pills out there?X)

[Masoch]

Apparently, OSI pellets are good -- but my fish won't touch them :*( I've taken to grinding them up, wetting them with tank water, and feeding them to my polyps ... which do love 'em

 

Really ... the food isn't bad to make. Basically ... pop 1 squid tube, 1 large shrimp / prawn, a clove of garlic, and some scallops into a blender and whip into a froth. Spread it thinly over a plate, freeze, and pop into a freezer bag. Nanos don't need much food ... my last batch (this recipe + some vits) has lasted for weeks. Everything in my tank, except the herbivorous snails, loves it.

 

Good luck!

 

And, this week ... no cyano on my rocks ... at all! What's left on my sand bed, my fighting conch is eating.

 

And, note to self ... check spelling more carefully. Lordy, my last post was awful.

[Nitro Joe]

Well ok then, Masoch. Color me interested. Because I'm new to this whole thing, can I sound dumb and ask you a few questions about that Borneman hash? Mostly I am referring directly to the post you linked previously.

 

#1. What are DT's?

#2. What is the "roe" of something? ...entrails?

#3. What are Echinacea capsules?

#4. Is Super Selco a name brand of vitamin supplement?

 

In regards to the "Masoch" interpretation... what dry food are you using in that recipe and if you wouldn't mind being specific, what supplements do you use? ...oh, and by a "tube" of squid, do you mean its body, or a squeeze tube? hee hee... no really, I want to know.

 

btw. I didn't even notice any speling mistackes in the last psot.

[AbSoluTc]

1 - Phosphates do not cause cyano.

2 - Cheap salts cause cyano and unwanted diatoms.

3 - Cyano is not caused by "bad" light.

 

Cyano is a menace. We all know this. Waterchanges do not help. Nitrates do not cause cyano either. If none of this stuff causes cyano, what does? I can say its mainly based on what additives you use, what salt you use and whether or not somone sent you cyano to start with, or you got it on a piece of rock or coral somewhere.

 

Syphon it out and go from there. Use Red Slime Remover as a last resort. Prepare for continual problems.

 

Might I ask what salt you are using?

[Nitro Joe]

Instant Ocean. Much new LR could have brought the cyano. Using RODI water, so doubt there is much silicates. Running JBJ Formosa 65X2, so I wasn't worried about the lighting.

 

When I started this thread, I was just wondering if there was something I had done to start the bloom, or if there was something "natural" I could do slow it down besides sucking each patch up one at a time.

 

Guess I just suck then.

 

btw AbSolutTc... love the icon. *bouncity-bouncity*

[tinyreef]

while i agree the PO4 and nitrates don't contribute to cyano significantly (if at all) your current flow, light quality, and DOC's will.

 

the water current could be a contributor by providing building material (i.e. nitrogen) but it can also keep it from getting a foothold, so there's a fine line to balance there. note that blasting it off without filtering it out doesn't remove/export it from your system. it just transfers it somewhere else.

 

light quality will have an effect on cyano ime. red slime takes optimal light in the blue/green zone, mid-500 nm range, i think. whereas green algae takes the yellow and red zones (600nm+ ??? ). the light they cannot/don't use is reflected and hence their 'colors'. btw what spectrum are your PC's bulbs?

 

the doc's are probably more at play here as you noted recent LR. they probably had some organics that are now in the water colum. now wc's will help that but you're really talking about removing a LOT of water and also hoping the decaying whatever has totally dissolved. a skimmer and filtration are better and easier imo. i agree, siphoning them is the quickest and easiest way tho.

[Nitro Joe]

I have one 7.1k actinic from 13:30 to 22:30 and a 10k from 14:00 to 22:00. ...both are 65W compacts.

[Nitro Joe]

This cyano is out of control... I'm sick to death of it... It's almost covering the bottom of one of my tanks. Anybody have any experience with Chemi Clean? 3twenty5 says it's good, as does the LFS guy. Safe for star polyps and long tenticle anemones?

[FishyPoo]

Nitro Joe,

I too have a cyano problem. Doesn't sound as bad as yours...yet.

I have ordered Chemi Clean. It has not arrived yet. It is supposed to be safe for Inverts, Fish, and Coral.

I also plan on getting some sort of sand shifting critter. Maybe sand shifting star. I think that will help cyano from covering the gravel/sand bottom. I notice it doesn't look too bad in the morning but when I get home and the lights have been on all day, the cyano is thicker. I only have lights on for 11 hours. Maybe I should make it 10.

 

Does you cyano cover you hair algae? Mine does @ times. I even took a rock out to clean it with a brush. Hair was back in a couple of days, cyano back (a little) a few days after the hair.

 

I'm starting to ramble....

[Nitro Joe]

No prob d00d. Cyano will grow over the top of just about anything, on the gravel and on the glass. If your rock is cured, I wouldn't take it out to scrub, because you may shock or damage your coralline. Everyone says to suck out the cyano, but mine is so thick that I am sucking everyday and can no longer keep up with it. I was hoping just to get some reassurance that I won't hurt anything using this product. Says it is supposed to be safe though.

 

A sand-sifting star will eat all the good little fellas in your gravel (sand fleas, copapods, amphipods and the like...). I was going to go that route too, but instead I use Nassarius snails and a fighting conch. There are some cool gobies that sift the heck out of the sand too. You may want to look into them, but a point to note is I don't think sand-sifters will do much for the cyano. It just grows too fast.

 

Does anyone know what Chemi-clean actually is?? Is it an enzyme or what?

[FishyPoo]

Here is what I found off the net @ drsfostersmith.com about

Chemi-Clean

"Chemi-Clean oxidizes trapped organic sludge and sediment to clarify aquarium water crystal clear. Promotes the ideal enzyme balance and is safe for reef tanks, all invertebrates, desirable macro algae, nitrifying bacteria and fish. 2 grams treat 300 gallons. "

 

Here is a link to the manufacture http://www.boydenterprisesonline.com/faq.html

 

Thanks for the star info. Won't get one. Looking into the snails now.....

[drdrew]

use the chemiclean.....follow instructions and be prepared to empty your skimmer VERY often when you first turn it back on.. it is no big deal...you will be so happy you did this and wonder why you waited so long!

[Masoch]

Hiya,

 

Just to pipe in ...

 

Fighting conches are fantastic and extremely cool to ogle. Mine actually eats cyano! But ... the big caveat with them is that they get big. Big , as in 6 inches or more. Peeps at ReefCentral seem to keep 'em at 1 per 40 gallons (they're very good at what they do) ... so, long-term, they may not be wise for nanos.

 

Otherwise, nassarius eat carrion (dead, meaty stuff) ... and pretty much nothing else. If you feed frozen food to your tank, they'll do a great job cleaning up leftovers that hit the sandbed. The other (recent) heroes to my tank are the pale-shelled cerith snails. They're algae eaters that spend most of their time submarining in the sand. The dark ones I've seen hang out mostly on the glass and rocks.

 

Anyways, like I say, my cyano's pretty much gone without using chemicals. Will it ever be completely gone? Probably not; cyano's tough stuff.

 

Good luck!

[BHRay]

Joe, I, like Masoch, used a poly filter pad. It did the trick within a week. But, be warned, it also made my little featherdsuters and sponges on my LR disappear. I would try it for a few days, then see how the tank recovers. Then try again if needed.

[freakaccident]

If you want a cheap chemical to get rid of cyano use freshwater maracyn. Crush one tablet up into powder for ten gallons. I did it and the crap was gone in one day. Same exact chemical as in Red Slime remover but a lot cheaper and readily available at the LFS.

[ParTeaGod]

I have a sailfin tang that eats cyno like a crazy fool it is amazing i have never seen anything like it.