STOP WILD COLLECTING

[Pship]

Why are all you people collecting wild corals? PRACTICE AQUACULTURE, we do not need to destroy the remaining reefs that we have. By 2060 it is projected that 80% of our remaining reefs will be gone.... so hey lets make it go faster.... shell out the $30 for a frag out get out of this hobby. I dont understand why people would rather destroy than preserve....

[BrassMonkey030]

what do you do for liverock, do you have only clowns in your tank.

 

quit driving your car, using electrisity and using lumber. then get back to me on the reefs.

 

edit-- dont eat any grazing animals either.

[er1c_the_reefer]

depends on definition of wild. i consider maricultured corals wild.

 

i buy wild colonies, but only if i can't find a maricultured or aquacultured version of it.

 

15-80 species go extinct everyday. sooner or later it'll be our turn and then maybe y'all enviromental people will be happy. remember: nature > mankind

[adtravels]

Go out and protest or vote sensibly, to your countries government to sign up to and be part of kyoto, and really make a differance. I mean a world superpower with some brilliant scientists and the means to do somthing just sitting back and burning it. Then get back to us all on the corals.

[Dawnskaybug]

Im thinking the coral problem isnt from people putting it in there tanks its from pollution..

I cant get corals any other way noone ships here and Im surrounded by it..

What about wild fish??

How about Tuna??

Swordfish?

list goes on

[Dr.Fumanchu]

The future of reefs could be sitting in our tanks right now......

[Nevr]

"Why are all you people collecting"

 

All us people? how about you speak for yourself and shut the ###### up. i never have even been in the ocean alright. stop whining on the internet and go DO somthing. stop being a ####### E-hippie and go DO IT!

[EnFuego]

Wrong Forum.

[paneubert]

Yep, there are tons of people on this forum who only buy from captive specimens, or aqua-cultured stuff. "You people" could not, and never will be an acceptable way to address an issue here. Pship, if you read around the forums a little bit more than you obviously have, then maybe you would sound much more educated and might be taken seriously.

Until then, all "You people" out there who do "reef" respectfully and ethically, rock on and keep proving Pship wrong.

[Mr. Fosi]

Where do you think your (and my) corals came from? They were originally collected from the wild.

 

All mine are at least one generation tank-bred.

 

Most of your posts are in the classifieds; drumming up a little business?

 

Of your non-classified posts many of the recent ones are pretty rude, so I wonder if you might not be trying a little trolling on the side.

[paneubert]

Hahahahaa, yeah. I was going to tell him to move his post to "The Sump" since it is using such an attacking tone, but then I remembered that this is nano-reef and not reefs.org..........

[FUGU!!!]

"Why are all you people collecting"

 

All us people? how about you speak for yourself and shut the ###### up. i never have even been in the ocean alright. stop whining on the internet and go DO somthing. stop being a ####### E-hippie and go DO IT!

Strong

 

 

Well,lif the coral reefs are diminishing.Why don't they just make giant prop/growing factorys in japan and in california and definatly the australian coastline and help replenish the coral reefs?

[chieferich]

Pship,

 

I understand your frustration. However, please keep in mind one thing. You are preaching to the choir.

 

Without reefers, our reefs probably wouldn't be getting as much attention as they are. many countries/ people would continue destroying/ polluting this resource if it was not for the fact that we create a value for it.

 

The people on this forum are the last on the planet that want to see the world's reefs gone! I would say most people buy captive raised over wild, especially for the most sought after variants (because they are so rare it would be more difficult to acquire them from the wild anyway).

 

I actually own www.captiveraised.com, and at some point I will update that site with good information and valid points as to why captive raised corals and fish are best (for both the reefs and hobbyists). Until that time comes and you can see how the arguement should be presented (several good sites already exist), I suggest you stop drivings cars and wearing shoes as a way to help our planet. The rubber used to make both comes from the rainforest, and unfortunately it is dissapearing at a much more alarming rate than our reefs...

[I Take Pictures]

Strong

Well,lif the coral reefs are diminishing.Why don't they just make giant prop/growing factorys in japan and in california and definatly the australian coastline and help replenish the coral reefs?

Ummmmmmmmm, youre dumd.

[Nishant3789]

btw that whole thing aboutt %80 of the reefs being gone is just the carribean reefs. and while i do love hte gulfs reefs just as much as everywhere else in the world, its pretty dull as far as biodiversity goes. and yeah i agree pollution and global warming are the real killers of reefs. the rise in ocean temperatures leads to less oxygen in the water which is whats bleaching the corals. even that im not positive if its our fault. coral reefs might not grow at an astonishing rate, but look at some growth rates on frags, corals grow faster than people think they do.

[BrassMonkey030]

alot of the greenhouse gases that you and i produce from our cars and electric

are going into the ocean to not just the atmosphere.

[FLIPbmw]

maybe it's just meant to be. If we can't learn from what we have infront of us... then oh well.

[Caesar777]

The reefs aren't disappearing because of collection for aquaculture in the USA, Europe, and Japan; it's because of the natives dynamiting the reefs, global warming, pollution, and a host of other human-caused problems. Us taking corals really makes a minimal impact. That, and there are collection limits (CITES, mostly) which get tighter every year, along with more mariculture (basically the native person takes a tip off a coral and grows it out in a pen, then sells us the adults, rather than just collecting colonies from the wild, thus saving whole colonies by just taking little tips)... So get the facts straight.

 

Plus, having frags for sale in the classifieds along with this short, pointless OP is pretty ridiculous. I'd say you ought to GET A JOB.

[clifford513]

[DementedLullaby]

Pwn'd by Caesar

[Caesar777]

Eyyyy, that's m'job.

[stevenx]

We do not need to destroy the remaining reefs that we have.

 

 

But you'll prob drive your car to work?

[MillerLite]

The reefs aren't disappearing because of collection for aquaculture in the USA, Europe, and Japan; it's because of the natives dynamiting the reefs, global warming, pollution, .... Us taking corals really makes a minimal impact. That, and there are collection limits (CITES, mostly) which get tighter every year, along with more mariculture... So get the facts straight.

 

Actually there is some truth to all of this. I dont associate myself with the original poster but I feel there are issues here that should be discussed. Unlike Ceasar and many others, I believe that human collection does have a significant impact on coral and fish populations, especially in reef rich areas near poor villages in third world countries. Check out this NOAA workshop on the trade in stony corals.

 

www.nmfs.noaa.gov/habitat/ead/ecosysdocs/indonesiaproceedingsfinal.pdf

 

Obviously enough scientists around the world were concerned about this very thing and organized an extensive study and workshop to evaluate the impact of human collection practices on coral populations. In addition to their findings, they also had suggestions on how to improve regulations, care of captured corals, etc. The amount of money in the coral trade is staggering and we all know just how strong regulations can be when faced with the almighty american dollar. So before you bash and get all fired up...I purchase and have purchased first generation corals and aquacultured corals. This is not a slam on anyone..just an attempt at dialogue and to undo some of the mistruths. Sure all the other things such as pollution, dynamite fishing, global warming have a greater impact, however unregulated coral collection in stressed areas further compound the problem. Meager attempts at mariculture in these impoverished nations are just that..meager attempts. Its unimaginable that these poor areas can afford the equipment and labor necessary for such endeavors. Here are a few quotes from the above study:

 

“Fishing, including coral harvest, is the most widespread exploitative human activity on tropical reefs...(Jennings and Polunin, 1996; Ross, 1984). The collection of corals and live rock for international trade may be a small issue in global terms, but in recent years it has increased significantly and can accelerate reef degradation, particularly on reefs threatened by other human activities.”

 

"Collection in most countries is carried out by local fishers who free dive or use surface-supplied air; a small number of species can also be collected on reef flats by wading.”

 

"We found that in 1997 the U.S. imported about 80% of all live coral, over 95% of the live rock and over 50% of the dead coral skeletons traded internationally...While this trade has the potential to be sustainable, these activities are currently contributing to the decline and degradation of coral reefs, primarily through damage associated with coral removal and overharvesting of uncommon species.

 

"It is recognised that the emergence of coral culture and restocking may assist to alleviate the pressure on wildstock resources for some species and may...it was also recognised that due to high labour costs it may remain unviable in some countries where there are strict aquaculture regulations"

 

So lets get all of the facts straight!

 

High costs of aquacultured corals, often higher than first generation corals collected from the wild can be prohibitive for most money conscience reefers. I myself try to buy frags from others when I can but sometimes I find myself visiting the LFS. I would be very interested to see evidence from the LFS indicating just how many truly aquacultured corals they buy versus those fished right out of the ocean. The proof is in the pudding...

 

Oh BTW..Ceasar dont you work in a LFS? Doesnt this put just a little bias in your argument that human collection has no effect?

 

Sorry this is so long...

[Caesar777]

The aquarium industry has long been a target for environmentalists and others, a face to put to a name, but it's EXAGGERATED. No doubt it has SOME impact, but it PALES in comparison to what the native people do to their own countries. Again, live rock? Yeah, in Indonesia, the Phillipines, and other island nations, it's what we'd call CEMENT. They dynamite the reefs and use it to make roads, houses, etc. The real problem is overfishing for human consumption, which has left EVERY fishing area in the world 90% OVERFISHED. Whales are thought to no longer be in danger, but Japan, Norway, and other whale-eating countries easily get around it by using so-called "science" as a tool: they exaggerate numbers in biased "field counts', "collect" and KILL whale "specimens" which are then used for food, cosmetics, and household products, not to mention astronomical numbers of outright poaching, which is poorly regulated ("paid a blind eye", if you will), along with the killing of sharks for their fins--thousands. I stand by my PWNership of the OP. Kthx.

 

Yes, I work in an LFS, but I've been doing saltwater for almost seven years now, working at this place for just over a year and another for about half that. I'm from just after the tail-end of the cyanide-fishing era, but nevertheless have had years to study fully the various impacts, numbers, etc. Really. I've dabbled in environmentalism, conservationism, and, currently, vegetarianism. Of course I have a realistic view of things.

 

Oh BTW, MillerLite, you're an ANTI-"tang-police"... Doesn't that put a little bias in YOUR views on the reefing industry?

[MillerLite]

The aquarium industry has long been a target for environmentalists and others, a face to put to a name, but it's EXAGGERATED. No doubt it has SOME impact, but it PALES in comparison to what the native people do to their own countries. Again, live rock? Yeah, in Indonesia, the Phillipines, and other island nations, it's what we'd call CEMENT. They dynamite the reefs and use it to make roads, houses, etc. The real problem is overfishing for human consumption, which has left EVERY fishing area in the world 90% OVERFISHED. Whales are thought to no longer be in danger, but Japan, Norway, and other whale-eating countries easily get around it by using so-called "science" as a tool: they exaggerate numbers in biased "field counts', "collect" and KILL whale "specimens" which are then used for food, cosmetics, and household products, not to mention astronomical numbers of outright poaching, which is poorly regulated ("paid a blind eye", if you will), along with the killing of sharks for their fins--thousands. I stand by my PWNership of the OP. Kthx.

 

Yes, I work in an LFS, but I've been doing saltwater for almost seven years now, working at this place for just over a year and another for about half that. I'm from just after the tail-end of the cyanide-fishing era, but nevertheless have had years to study fully the various impacts, numbers, etc. Really. I've dabbled in environmentalism, conservationism, and, currently, vegetarianism. Of course I have a realistic view of things.

 

Oh BTW, MillerLite, you're an ANTI-"tang-police"... Doesn't that put a little bias in YOUR views on the reefing industry?

 

Ive been a anti-tang police back when anti-tang police in this forum was just beginning. I believe that not just one solution fits all..just the same as with this issue. If you remember, the anti-tang police comments were created in response to those people such as yourself that called people idiots that deviated from the norm and tried new things. I think that everything should be open to discussion that sometimes collectively we can find a better solution to things without telling others what we suppose we know and what we think is best for everyone. The whole nano-reef idea was initiated after people began trying small aquarium reefing despite most of the negative response and pointy headedness of those in the LFS. As for the environmentalist position, I think yes I believe there should be an open forum on the environment and for the need to better our coral collecting practices. I can hardly do justice as the face as the environmentalist effort though because like most, I know I do not do enough.

 

And I think most times, you feel you are important source of information and that your facts trump what hundreds of very educated scientists, not necessarily environmentalists, have stated in those reports. Believe me, the NOAA is not full of environmentalist wackos but rather important scientists that are our first line of defense against those that would rather stick their heads in the sands and ignore what is going on around them..just for the sake that it would most likely put them out of business. In fact I believe they can often be accused of being too conservative in their response. Being here in the washington DC area, living 15 minutes from the NOAA, and having attended a few of their seminar series on oceanic and atmospheric changes, I can attest to this. I am sure after 7 years you have accumulated significant knowledge that your LFS can afford you, but the reefing experience is much larger than any LFS. So please do as I have done, provide evidence for your facts before you state these mistruths. Perhaps you have similar published evidence that you wish to share? And as for the rest, I think it clouds the issue regarding the impact of coral collection. Although, I agree that it all looks pretty dismal and that these too should be discussed more amongst the people and in particular amongst those that make policy.