FIRE!!! Floatswitches.net

PLEASE BE ADVISED

My brother recently got his nano-reef setup and used a floatswitch from floatswitches.net and started fire in his basement. Luckily he was home and put it out before it burnt down his house. It caused some pretty severe damage though. When he set this up we loooked through this site and seen that SO MANY people out there have used this switch and just used to to switch the 110 AC current. PLEASE ADD A RELAY!!!!!!! I work for a company called Electronic Controlled Systems in Minneapolis, MN and I am not an electronics guy. (work in computer department) But I did bring one of the float switches into the office and had one of our electronics engineers look at this to tell me how I can use it with 110 AC. This product is rated in DC not AC. The guy from my work suggested that I get a little project box, relay that can handle can switch 110AC using 12V DC, and at 110v AC to 12v DC power converter. This way you are float switch is not beeing overrated and there is not a big chance for fire. I know that alot of people have been using this product in a manner that it is not designed for without problems, but I just wanted to let people know that for a few extra bucks there is a way to safely wire this up. If anyone would like specs on how to wire one with a relay let me know.

What size powerhead was he using in his setup? How was it rigged up...directly in line with the powerhead, or wired into a extension cord then to the powerhead?

I have a float from them and I haven't set it up yet, now I'm even more cautious about it

*waves*

Hi from your another reefer in your city.

It doesn't matter if you are using air, PH, and any other pump. Think of this float-switch device as a light switch. It is used to turn the power ON/OFF. Pretty much all of the common aquarium pumps are 110V AC power. So if you use this switch to power ON/OFF one of these 110V AC devices and do not use a relay there could potentialy be a fire in your house too. I am not saying that all of these will start a fire, in fact the chances are fairly low, most likely it SHOULD trip a breaker. All I am saying is that it happened to my brother and SIMPLY PUT, THIS IS NOT A 110V AC SWITCH. And for a few extra minutes of setup and a few extra bucks to make it more safe. I will draw a schetch of one way it can be wired safely.

Will have it done by tomorow....

***Hey there Hwarang***

cool, i'm waiting till i see your diagram

thx

Did he have the switch on a GFI outlet?

Oh man, now I'm sceered.

Yup, I'm going to radio shack to pick up a relay.

Ya, that's why I went with a battery powered air pump in my topoff system. The batteries will last about a year or more and it's only 3 volts DC. It's a little more noisy, but not much and it only comes on for about 5 to 10 seconds and then stops.

Or... better find a pH that works in 12V or something.

Yeah, if you over load them, the can also stick open, and not do , what you got them to do in the first place.

Physh 1, may wanna post here to make people feel comfy 'bout your switches

onthefly

"Did he have the switch on a GFI outlet?"

Yes he has all of his aquarium equipment on GFI outlets. All aquarium equipment should be and if not the outlet itself all the power strips should have GFI built into them. GFI=Ground Fualt Interupt, will not prevent a fire like this though. That is not what it is for. GFI is to protect against shocking yourself. If the circuit gets grounded it will break. Example, if you had a power head underwater that had a crack or something that was leaking current into the water, stick your hand in there and you just grounded the circuit. The problem with the floatswitch and fire isn't that, the problem is that the swtich contacts and the wire itself is not designed to handle that much power. So what happens is the wire or the contacts are going to actually get hot enough to burn the coating on the connections of the wire itself. Similar to how a filiment in a light bulb works. In my brothers case the insulation on the wires just melted and burst into flames. (This happened to me in a car once using the wrong guage wire to hook up a window washer pump, major flames in seconds.) So yes I recommend a GFI to protect yourself from shock, especially when working around water.

1fish2fish

What was the pump that you used that uses batteries, maybe this is the way to go... Once you put a relay in the mix that is one more thing that could go wrong, you could have it get stuck on or something and overflow the tank, same with the float switch. But the more components you have in the design the more likely something could go wrong.

Are these the same switches that Physh uses?

I sure got a lot of PM's real quick about this one. I do NOT use their switches. I use a Madison switch. I've talked to Madison reps about how I have them setup to confirm my setup and pumps are cool. Also, out of the 1000+ now I've sold I have had 3 come back that just died and 1 that just flat out never worked. That is a significantly low failure rate.....can't ask for those kinda odds with anything.

Now that classes are over (woooohoooo), I'm going to get the relay setup I've been tinkering with done and hopefully available soon for those who do want it and are willing to pay a few extra bucks. I have not found this to be necessary yet at all as most of the people who inquired to me about relay setups weren't fond of paying more and my good rep makes them comfortable with the current setup which I won't abandone.

As mnjlp27 noted about the floatswitch.net unit:

This product is rated in DC not AC.

Any questions just ask....I'll help any way I can.

Cameron

heh heh you go Cam

Thanks for the reply Physh1,

I was looking at your website at your switch, I am glad to hear that your's IS rated to work as a 110v AC switch. I REALLY like that snail gaurd you have there, genious, and it looks nice too. I was wondering if you have ever thought of making a model with two float switches that where at just a little bit different hieghts? You could have one be just a bit higher then the main one to use as a reserve, so that if the main switch failed or got stuck when the water reached the second one and pushed it up it could break the circuit and kill the water flow? Just a thought. I would think that people would be willing to pay more for the extra security. But hey, what do I know...

I have thought about it and have had requests but it's just not something that people were willing to pay for and is something that hasn't proven to be nearly as reliable with the tests I run.

If failures were a problem than I'd do it in a second but I have had no reasons to change the main design....IMO it's been near flawless. While I have sold one or two that way w/o issues the current design in long term has had no issues to warrant it. I've had some switches out for over 3.5 years in continuos use still working like a champ.

Cameron

The datasheet at floatswitches.net is vague about the voltage limits of the device. It only states the DC spec, but nowhere states the AC specs. This does not mean that it doesn't work on AC (in fact it will, it just isn't stated to what level).

Small power heads pull very little current. I find it impossible to believe that this thing can't carry the trivial amount of current a powerhead requires.

Also, this float switch is UL listed. Extensive safety testing is required before a product can obtain UL listing.

I would bet a dollar that there was either user error here or a faulty switch. It is unlikely to be an inherent design flaw.

Dale

zzpw3x,

I am not saying this wont' work, I am just saying that this is not what this switch was built for. Just cause it is UL listed doesn't mean that it is UL listed to act as a direct 110V AC power switch on a 15 amp circuit. In fact UL listing requires that all Light switches/dimmers or anything else that make direct contact with the 15 amp circuit has to be able to withstand 15 amps. Q:Why would they do that if I only want to switch a 15 watt light? A:So your house doesn't burn down. This switch has a Max Switch Rating 0.6A, wich is = to 66 watts. (volts x amps = watts / 110 x .6 = 66Watts) I understand that most powerheads or airpumps do not draw more then 10 watts of juice, but that does not mean that this device will hold up durring power surges. Your house wiring only protects you from surges larger then 15 amps, I understand that a ton of people are using this switch, but I assure you that if you asked any liscensed electrical contractor to wire that up for you they wouldnt, because it's against code.

Here is a good way to test my theory if you don't beleive what I am saying. This switch according to floatswitches.net is UL listed to have a max. 0.6A switching capacity. So wire in a 1 amp fuse (which is almost double what the switch is UL listed for) and see how long that fuse lasts.

I built this solid state relay for exactly this reason. You can see some photos, simple diagrams, and get a link to the place where I got the part numbers/ideas/etc. for the solid-state relay (better to use this over a mechanical relay which may stick open/closed) off of my website, Good luck:

http://members.cox.net/sandsrfr/2004/02170...solid_state.htm

Sands

sandsrfr

Excellent Design. This is exactly what I am talking about,(except a little nicer, lol) now I shouldn't need to draw a sketch. How much did this little box cost?

Side note,

My brothers insurance company will not be paying for ANY repairs since the cause of fire was "faulty/negligent" wiring. They basically said, "Hey, it was your own fault." Hmm. Wonder how much remodeling in the basement is going to cost?

You can easily use the azoo or hagen battery powered air pumps. the azoo is a little more quiet though becaude it uses a diaphram rather than a piston.

1fish2fish

After your suggestion for battery powered air pumps I did a search for them. I can't beleive how many kinds there are, I didn't reallize that battery powered air pumps were that common. Thanks for the input.

zzpw3x (Dale),

You are an idiot if you think that the "small" amount of current going through a power head has anything to do with the float switch being a fire hazard or not. If there is a short in the power head, you will have a large current.

Use your brain.

When a 110V power outlet is connected to a float swtich, it does not matter what is being powered by the switch. The switch is still connected to a wall outlet and sitting in a tank full of salt water. If you drop a low power radio into your bath tub that is plugged into a wall, you are still dead.

Also, if a UL listed device is PROPERLY USED, it can be considered fairly safe. This is not proper usage of this switch which is what mnjlp27 is trying to tell you. You even said the data sheet says nothing about AC. There you go, man. It is not intended for AC.

Also, I bought those switches, and they seem pretty reliable, however, they are very thin gauge wire that would never EVER be used in a 110V AC application by anyone who knows anything about electricity.

This is a serious hazard that mnjlp27 has brought up. Thank you for that! And he gave hard proof that these can start fires. With a DC circuit, a malfunction will not result in a fire. 110 VAC can obviously start a fire.

Don't make ignorant posts when life threatening safety issues are involved. You can go kill yourself with your float switch and let natural selection run its course. Just don't mislead others with your stupidity. I don't think that you will win that dollar.

Physh1

I hate to have to point this out but I will. This is the switch that you use. If I am wrong PLEASE correct me.(guess it doesn't matter, any madison float switch would need relay or motor control circuit to operate a 110VAC PH or airpump safely) I have been investigatin which switch you use in your design and I believe it is the Madison "MS8000". If this is the switch it is only rated for a load of .28 Amps at 110VAC wich means that if you are not using a relay this is CRAZY. If you go to their own website http://www.madisonco.com/reference/electrical.htm it cleary shows the rating and two examples of how to use one of their switches for tank leveling purposes. In BOTH illustrations you WILL see them wired WITH RELAYS. You stated to me that you have sold 1000+ of these units on the internet. I would seriously consult with an electronic engineer about this. And possibly an attourney, if you have sold 1000+ units that have the pottential to start fires, you have an obligation to your customers to do something. Sorry if I sound like an ass or something but I thought this is a VERY serious matter that should be taken seriously. I am not an electronics engineer myself, but I did present this information to our lead engineer at Electronic Controlled Systems in Minneapolis, MN. This guy has been designing electronics for over 30 years, including electronic cruise controls and autimatic tracking satellite systems. Working in the electronics industry I know how serious testing and compliance is to stay in business. I know you say that your switch is topoff system is safe but if that is indeed the switch you are using then it is no safer then using the Floatswitches.net unit. (actually theres is a rating of 0.6 amps and the MS8000 is 0.28 wich is less then half the switch capacity?)

I may be totally wrong on the type of switch you use, I am sure I will be swiftly corrected if I am.

One more fact I just noticed: All of Madisons Plastic, single level, float switches use 22 gauge wire for the leads. If the power head or air pump were to short circuit, then the wire used to connect would have to be able to sustain as much of a load as your breaker. Two things are going to happen if you have a short in the ph or air pump, one is that the wire will be able to sustain as much of a load as a the breaker and it will break, two is that the wire will not sustain this load, (22 gauge) if the second scenerio happens then two other things could happen. One, the wire will get so hot that it melts and breaks the connecion, equivilent to unplugging, that is if you are LUCKY. The second thing that can happen if your wiring cannot sustain the load is it will again heat up like a fillament in a light bulb untill it reaches it's burning point and then, POOF...