Mr. Fosi's budget 20L

[travisurfer]

lol, fosi. The only reason for me to say its easy is that I have 5 pieces of equipment plugged in. Hope you have a nice thanksgiving down there.

[Mr. Fosi]

Blue: I hadn't seen Melev's closed loop. I like his design, but I think I can improve on its flow rate by eliminating the "over the lip" elbows. I guess I'll need to add a small shelf to the back of the stand to support the pump. It'll be tough to do since I only have a max of 10" to work with back there.

 

Trav: It was a great Thanksgiving. We spent it with some neighbors and their families. Killer food, good company, fun times all around. The banana pudding was particularly wonderful.

 

Pics! You'll note the lack of a chalice pic. There is no flesh left on the skeleton and I am a little depressed about it. You'll also note a small amount of GHA in some of the pics.

 

My ever expanding kenya tree. There are two main stalks and I am thinking of fragging off the smaller one, mounting it on some LR and putting it near the top of the tank.

 

 

 

 

The GSP. I have a couple bits of rubble next to it for it to start growing on.

 

 

 

 

A couple pics of the Madracis. It is really hard to get a good pic of the upper colony because of the lighting. You'll notice a little more tentacle extension on the top colony since I redirected some of the flow away from it. You can see that its polyps are smaller than the lower colony but its growing at a good rate.

 

 

 

 

Here is a half dollar sized neon green sponge through which my chaeto grew. When I pulled the chaeto up from behind my rock during my last sell-off, this sponge came with it. I am curious to see how long it survives unattached. I haven't ever seen them unattached to rock.

 

 

 

 

The frogspawn colony. This is the best tentacle extension I see and sometimes a few of the heads will spit out mesenteric filaments. I don't know what pi$$es it off and I don't know why it isn't as bushy as it could be but the three left-most heads have continued to split and I take that as a good sign.

 

 

 

 

And an FTS.

 

 

 

 

Believe it or not, I had to light-acclimate the frogspawn. Coming from blubastion's tank with the blasting MH, you wouldn't think it'd need to be acclimated to PC but it did.

 

I also got my ATO working (I can't remember if I already posted this). Right now the reservoir is a 3L bottle and I'll upgrade it later. I am topping off with an unsaturated kalk solution (1/4 tsp into 3L) and I have seen a resurgence of coralline algae growth. It has also been helping to keep my no lower than 8.0 even over night.

 

Surpisingly, I am already seeing a cessation of GHA. There is both a decrease in the amount of GHA and a decrease in the quality of the remaining GHA. I have done several 10% waterchanges and I strongly basted the rockwork before each one. I also ran my HOT magnum (packed with filter floss) again for another 4 days, during which I also had an MJ1200 blasting into the rockwork. I was able to pull out another ton of detrital crap.

 

I credit the detritus hunts and the water switch to the quick results but I really didn't think I would see a response this quickly. I'm going to keep it up until it is defeated!

[clifford513]

Tanks looking good Looks like the gha is on its way out!

[Needreefunds]

I does look like you are slaying the GHA monster.

 

I have been thinking about getting a HOT magnum for some time now. I think you just pushed me over the edge. With three tanks running it should prove to be a useful tool.

 

A closed loop has also been on my to do list. Following along closely.

[Duncan]

Too much flow on the frogspawn, I guess? My froggies look like that when I got too much flow on them.

 

I like the look of the chaeto ball in the tank. It has a calming effect on me.

[Mr. Fosi]

Cliff: It's only a matter of time.

 

'Funds: I have had my HOT for 9 years and I have run it on almost every tank I have ever had, both FW and SW. At different times, I have had it running continuously for up to two years, only recently has it become more of an intermittent thing. In all the time I have had it, I have never had to replace or repair any part of it. I would certainly recommend it to anyone looking for a versatile mechanical/chemical filtration tool.

 

Duncan: I thought the flow on the frogspawn has been pretty random and light. You can see in the FTS that it is stitting in the center of the tank, which is between the outputs of the AC70s. The penguin powerhead blows a little more than 2" directly over it and through the outflow of the righthand AC70 which creates unpredictable eddies. Should it be in water that is generally still? Glad you like the chaeto... I little touch of Zen perhaps?

 

I just did a 20% waterchange and I'll probably do another one next week. I'll try to scare up more detritus next week before I do the next waterchange but it looks like I may be running out of material to vacuum out.

[Greenstar]

Tank is looking good! Are you feeding the corals at all?

[Mr. Fosi]

Not since the fish went missing and the chalice stopped eating.

 

The Madracis is always ready to eat but I've had issues in the past with getting frogspawn to eat mysis. Mysis and tetra marine flakes are the only foods I have... I like to get some cyclopeez but I'm having a hard time justifying the cost.

 

It'd be nice to be able to feed plankton as well, but I don't care to buy the stuff that comes in the bottles. Too much of a nutrient soup.

[c est ma]

Wrong holiday, I know, but the chaeto in that last fts looks like a big green Peeps to me... ...with something yellow in its bill...

 

I, too like the ball-of-chaeto-in-the-tank look.

 

Looks like you've got that pretty yellow sponge right under the Madracis, too. What a nice color to have!

 

--Diane

[Duncan]

I'm not an expert on Euphyllia species but I have keep several... On a scale from 0 - 10 from zero flow to full blasting sps-level flow, I prefer mine to be on flow level 2, based on trial and error.

 

*in a chinese old sage voice* Ah yes, I can see in your eyes... You, many flairs for zen. Great reefs await you.

 

meh. Happy Thanks-giving!

[AcroporaLokani]

Nice tank Mr.F

[travisurfer]

looks nice Fosi. That chaeto ball DOES look like a peep. lol.

[Mr. Fosi]

Thanks for the kinds words guys.

 

I hadn't noticed that the chaeto does look like a giant peep with a green sponge in its mouth! I wish I could get the neon green color of the sponge to show up in the pics... They don't look that yellow in real life.

 

I disconnected the powerhead so the froggy is in between the AC70 outputs in flow of 0.5-1.0 on Duncan's scale. We'll see if it responds.

[yardboy]

You know I forgot all about your awesome closed loop and I even posted about it back in March! Man, it seems like March was so far away... It looks like your loop puts out something on the order of 325 gph?

 

If I assembled mine using the same size (3/4" correct?), type and number of fittings you have (3x90-degree, 6x45-degree, 1 ball valve, 2 unions and 2 exits) but scaled up the pipe lengths to fit the 20L (~1.5' vertical and ~2' horizontal), I'd get ~355 gph with a Mag5. I'm not sure if I need more than that, but the Tim Taylor in me wants to get as close to 500 gph as I can.

 

What do you think? Is it worth the 35W (Mag5) for 355 gph?

 

I really like your setup but I don't have a rear shelf to mount the pump on. The only thing that is keeping me from plumbing the closed loop ASAP is the lack of a mount-point. I could always kluge one on the stand, but my wife won't tolerate much ghetto. She keeps my design skillz sharp.

 

Funny you mentioned Locline because among the various plumbing parts I've acquired were 3 sections of the 3/4" size. They all have a male threaded segment on one end and a circular nozzle on the other, making them a must-use for my upcoming design.

 

Why do you want Locline for yours? You're pinched PVC nozzles seem like they work well...?

No e-mail notification is a pain. Your thread spins fast!

I'm of the opinion that the Mag 5 with a closed loop is plenty with a 20L. I had a frag tank with a Maxi1200 on a spraybar and it was plenty. The pump on my closed loop is a Mag 3, and with the pinched PVC pipes it was too strong, blowing sand around. I took the nozzles off and it was better, but not dispersed enough. Trying to make adjustments using a bunch of 45's is a pain, especially when you have to glue the ones that aren't directly over the tank, I'm not into mopping the floor with salt water. Locline will be easier to plumb. I did bite the bullet too, and it cost me $23 for what I needed. Oww, guess I'll have to write it up to "Ghetto Bling-bling". I got y's on the ends so water will be going in more directions. The SCWD so not too much flow will be lost due to 4 outlets instead of two. The mods on the SCWD really keep the flow high too. I've run one with out the mods and it's really flow reducer. I see you are trying to get one also. Gonna mod it? Lots of fun, but I had to go slow to let the epoxy dry between mods. Took a freaking week of one little bit at the time.

Sorry about your chalice. I found a beautiful red one locally, only three polyps but only $10 too. Watched it slowly recede until there's nothing left. Not sure what it didn't like, moved it several times to no avail.

[Mr. Fosi]

I'm of the opinion that the Mag 5 with a closed loop is plenty with a 20L.

 

Well, if that is the case, then a Mag 9.5 through a modded SCWD should work well. If the SCWD were unmodded, I could expect a flow rate of ~412 gph out of the return. If the SCWD is modded, I may be able to get closer to the 515+ gph I would have without it.

 

I did bite the bullet too, and [the locline] cost me $23 for what I needed. Oww, guess I'll have to write it up to "Ghetto Bling-bling".

 

Naah. $23 is still frigging cheap and I don't think it ruins the ghetto.

 

The mods on the SCWD really keep the flow high too. I've run one with out the mods and it's really flow reducer. I see you are trying to get one also. Gonna mod it?

 

I plan to. I don't see the point of owning one without increasing the ports and adding an access plug, especially when the mods are so straight forward. I really like your unions and I'm not sure if I should be irritated or happy about the fact that you did it first.

 

Not sure if I'll use epoxy though... The mod pages I have seen suggest that PVC glue works well. Did you try it on yours?

 

Sorry about your chalice. I found a beautiful red one locally, only three polyps but only $10 too. Watched it slowly recede until there's nothing left. Not sure what it didn't like, moved it several times to no avail.

 

Yeah, it blows. That's the second chalice I have lost in as many years. I bought two of them from ebin for ~$60 back when I had my 5.5g and one of them (a pink and white) never recovered from the shipping. At the time I didn't know they would eat mysis, but I doubt it would have helped. It seems like once they decide to go south, there is no stopping them. This one was more of a bummer because I had it for over a year and it was growing so nice. Oh well... The frogspawn more than makes up for it.

 

I really like your ghetto PVC bubble trap BTW. I can't tell from the pic where the water exits...? I was going to install baffles in mine, but I would like to avoid that and your setup seems to propose a way for me to do so. Are you still using the hydor pump for your return? Do you think that trap would be effective for a flow rate up to 5x your ~100+ gph flow rate?

 

 

 

 

I also didn't realize you had mangrove pods in there. Are they the red or black?

[travisurfer]

i'm guessing the bubble trap doesn't go all the way down to the the bottom

[yardboy]

I may have to quit posting if I can't keep up with everyone. as I said before, no email notification is a pain.

The bubble trap is a piece of 4" PVC with four slots cut in the bottom side, about 1/2" wide and 2" long I also glued a piece of eggcrate above the slots to form a platform for filtration materials, carbon or phosphate remover in bags, and some filter socks I have that fit right into the holder. (that's from recollection. I have them in all my sumps so I'll pull one out this evening and take a shot of it for you.) As you can see, the chaeto tends to grow toward it as that's where the highest nutrient content is.

 

I think that increased flow would exit the trap without microbubbles as I have one made with 6" PVC that sits close to the return pump of my 150 and it doesn't get microbubbles. If it gives a problem with the trap empty, use a piece of filter floss or a bag of carbon in the trap and that'll eliminate them. I've got a trap on a double 20L arrangement with a Mag 7 and only problem I've had is salt creep because of splash so I fitted a piece of filter floss (well not exactly floss as its sort of a blanket - blue on one side and white on the other) that goes on top of the trap with a hole in the middle that the overflow pipe goes through. no problem with microbubbles or salt creep.

 

I did not try using PVC cement as I had the two part epoxy and knew it stuck well to PVC and is thicker (as in gap-filling) to cover my "not as smooth as desired" dremel skills.

Remember too that if you use a modded SCWD the entire force of flow will be going out only one outlet at the time. When I connected up mine to the Mag 3, it blasted sand everywhere. I've got to get a tee or spraybar hooked up to one side to disperse the flow, it's actually too much full flow.

 

The mangroves are red, from Hawaii I think, got them from Strangelove. I'm working with someone else to learn how to bonsai them to keep them small. Not sure how yet, as I know they can't be pruned, but they are overgrowing the light.

[Mr. Fosi]

Thanks for the replies. I think I might try your bubble trap design. Can't wait to see pics!

 

I hadn't thought about the "all the flow through one outlet" aspect of the SCWD mod... Perhaps it might be a good idea to split off the returns using PVC before they enter the tank. That is: four returns instead of two. Same amount of flow, but nothing that will cut through steel.

[Mr. Fosi]

I think I've narrowed the choices down to three. I am looking for some fresh perspectives, since these all seem to have drawbacks. I left out the union couplings, shutoffs, locline and a couple other fittings to simplify the drawing and shorten the draw-time. I am looking for opinions/suggestions on the overall design.

 

This will be plugged into a Mag 9.5 pumping to a vertical head of 4.5' through 0.75" schedule 40 (or thinner walled) PVC plumbing.

 

Will these designs provide even flow through all outlets?

Is "even flow" important?

Too complicated?

Too simple?

What problems am I missing?

Any other comments?

 

 

 

EDIT: The "ears" on the second design are supposed to be identical.

[yardboy]

I'm kinda spatially challenged, I don't quite see the difference between 2 and 3. I would definitely not go with 1, too much flow with a 9.5!

Sorry for the delay, I've got about three projects going on at the same time, with not much time after work to get them done in.

Here's a shot of the bottom of one of my overflow catchers. Note you could vary the width/length/height of the slots any way you want. In this one I added a coupling on the top because some filter socks I got on a deal were a bit wider than 4" but the width of the coupling worked just fine.

 

Here's one in my chaeto tank liverock sump. As you can see I have other "ghetto projects" going too.

 

 

Here's one of my main system sump, as you can see you can use as many as you need. Both the return and skimmer suctions are on the right, along with several other frag tank return pumps and overflows. What a mess, eh? Main success for me is that there are no microbubbles going in the tanks, and very little salt creep over anything. Water is a bit roiled due to the socks overflowing (when are you supposed to change your socks? When they overflow. Yuck-yuck)

[c est ma]

^^^^Those pics blow my mind!

 

Congrats on all the engineering. I need to borrow you sometime...

 

 

--Diane

[MyCatsDrool]

Fosi --

 

Not sure if you still need it, but I have an unused PVC primer/cement kit, and tons of 1/2in and 3/4 in pvc joints, ball valves and tees still if you need them with your name on them. Also some egg crate, and other stuff.

 

Say the word and it will be in a box, on it's way. It is just taking up space for me right now.

 

Just give me a hoot, and we'll chit chat.

 

A.

[Mr. Fosi]

I'm kinda spatially challenged, I don't quite see the difference between 2 and 3. I would definitely not go with 1, too much flow with a 9.5!

 

I figured you would say that about #1 but I thought I'd throw it in there anyway.

 

The main differences between #2 & #3 are:

- the amount of pipe and number of fittings

- the placement of the returns (all corners in #2 whereas #3 has two corners and two at the middle-back wall)

- possible flow differences given the placement of the tees.

 

My main concern is whether the water will flow equitably through each return if I plumb the tees the way the way they are in the pic. Will the bulk of the water flow straight through the "straight" part of the tee, bypassing the first branch?

 

Sorry for the delay, I've got about three projects going on at the same time, with not much time after work to get them done in.

 

I know the feeling... Don't sweat it, I know you have a real life to live.

 

Here's a shot of the bottom of one of my overflow catchers.

 

Awesome pics! I imagine the sand gets blown away from the slots? Initial sandstorm that will calm down once the flow pattern shapes the sand bed?

 

What a mess, eh? Main success for me is that there are no microbubbles going in the tanks, and very little salt creep over anything.

 

Messy but workable. Now if I could only get my wife to permit such ghettoness. I like clean plumbing but mine never seems to come out that way.

 

Your successes are precisely the ones I would like to emulate. I don't want to have a bunch of salt spray/creep in my stand and I don't want a bunch of bubbles in the display. I really like those catchers because they don't require baffles to be glued which opens up a lot more room in the sump. I think I will go with a similar design.

 

As for the filter socks: I would change them once they clog but I haven't ever used them so I don't know how long that takes.

 

Diane: I get him first!

 

Cats: I still have you in mind. I just need to finalize the design. Clearly some designs require more fittings than others and I want to make sure that get all of them chosen before I send you a list. Thanks again!

[Mr. Fosi]

I chatted up a friend of mine that has some experience with fluid dynamics and he confirmed what I suspected: Design #2 is probably the best.

 

There should be no problem with unequal flow out of the different outlets because the in-pipe pressure will not allow the water to shoot past the branches. The water will flow along the path of least resistance such that all four outlets (two at a time, of course) will be equal.

 

Also, my SCWD arrived today and it was a steal at $27 shipped! I did a quick FW test and it seemed to be working correctly. Now it is a matter of modding it... I will be reading over the next few days before I fire up the dremel. Tips are welcome.

[yardboy]

Another way to avoid more water coming out of one outlet versus another is to valve them. That way you can pinch back on the one that's getting more water. As you can see if you compare the two pics of my sump, I've already modded it again yesterday, putting a bigger pump in place of two smaller ones, with a two branch tree to control flow. I opened the valve all the way on the one with highest resistance and throttled the other one.

I was so anal I even measured the overflows with a gallon bucket to make sure they were equal.

 

Mr. Fosi, I'm sure you know there's always tradeoffs and compromises between two people in a relationship. I built an addition onto our house for my tank room, but knew that I would have to share the space, so half is her's (she's an orchid grower) and half is mine. I'm also fortunate that she really likes the tanks too, but isn't crazy about doing much more than feeding fish and arranging live rock. I think I'm a source of amusement for her, with my almost constant rearrangeing of piping. We've been to Lowe's and HD so many times she can find fittings as fast as I can! I am well aware that I am really really lucky.

Good luck with your project, can't wait to see it complete.