Nitrate & Ph question

[drfu]

My tank has been cycled for over a month now, i have been adding various corals (2 each week). I have no ammonia or nitrites but do detect nitrates, around 5-10. Considering i have no fish, just snails & coral, should i not have 10 nitrates? Do snails & coral create a bioload? I did a 20% water change on sunday, so i was assuming i would have read 0%. Now on advice from my lfs i did add rodifiers, copepods,& phyto to feed my corals, and also put in 1/3 dose of seachem Fuel, could have this caused some nitrates & should i be worried about showing nitrates, what is an acceptable level of nitrates?

 

My other question is my ph is @ 8.0, should it not be at 8.2? Should i raise it and if so how safely?

 

Thanks in advance for your help

 

IM Nuvo 8, 5lb of live rock, 10lb of live sand, using ff,cpe&purigen & extra live rock rubble in fuge. 1 trochus, 3 bumble bee, 4 nassarius & 8 cerith snails in tank and fuge(back water column). 10 assorted corals ranging from mushrooms, sps, zooas & poly's

[Subsea]

Relax and exercise patience. Your pH is fine at 8.0. Does it fluctuate when the lights are off?

 

One month is not very old. When you say no ammonia or nitrite, I question the sensitivity of your test kits. It would be more accurate to say no detectable ammonia or nitrite. On some of my high nutrient systems, I control system food input to run nitrate between 20-40 PPM. While you may not control an SPS tank at this level, it would not hurt anything in the short term.

Patrick

[drfu]

If your nitrates are 10 a 20% water change can only move it down to 8. Not zero.

What is Fuel, whats in it?

Everything living poops and pees. All livestock produce waste. Even your nitrifying bacteria produce waste.

pH of 8.0 is just fine.

One other thing, fish, corals, and inverts produce slimecoats and mucus layers for protection or locomotion. Made mostly of glycoproteins. These get into the water column and can breakdown. Its more pollution than waste, per se. You should have a means of removing this stuff before it breaks down.

 

Fuel is some sort of amino acids the guy @ the llfs told me to use, but I'm always sceptical of dosing with anything and from what i have red on this forum a 1\3 is safe? As for my bioload what would you recommend to remove the pollutants, another water change?

[drfu]

Relax and exercise patience. Your pH is fine at 8.0. Does it fluctuate when the lights are off?

One month is not very old. When you say no ammonia or nitrite, I question the sensitivity of your test kits. It would be more accurate to say no detectable ammonia or nitrite. On some of my high nutrient systems, I control system food input to run nitrate between 20-40 PPM. While you may not control an SPS tank at this level, it would not hurt anything in the short term.

Patrick

 

Good to hear that 8.0 is fine! It does not fluctuate but i will test after the lights being off just in case, like in the am before they go on.

 

Yes about testing, i should phrase it as no detectable! I use the api saltwater & reef kits & they are hard to use so i have being using conditioned tap water and place them side by side for comparisons.

 

Telling me to relax is a good think, i just want to be cautious and make sure everything is solid before adding a fish. With all the $ invested in coral i want to make sure all is happy!. If i can keep my tank below 20 consistently my reef should be fine them? That is what i keep all my fw tanks @?

[drfu]

All 21 Amino acids are nitrogen based, fyi.

You want nitrate as low a possible, 20 is way too high for me.

Everyone states tHat API test suck. I did a test of 4 year old (read expired and should be bad) API tests a month ago and posted results. They were spot on versus Red Sea and Hanna. Hanna doesnt have a nitrate tester. I already know the API Ammonia test and the pH tests are crap: due to the colors on the cards are so close in color. Ex: pH 7.8, 8.0, and 8.2 are virtually the same color on the reference card.

But if this is your second tank or greater, you dont need ammonia or nitrite tests anyway.

I bet your pH is fluctuating all the time. What is your Alk, it determines how stable your pH is?

 

Yes all the test kits have colors too close, i used to use the Nutrafin before the API and it was worse. Testing this am before the lights vame on, my ph was between 7.8-8.0, again colors??? I had dome a kh test a couple of days ago & it was between 125 & 143. Are those not good levels? What tests do you use to keep an eye on your levels?

[Mr. Fosi]

Colorimetric kits always have a margin of error greater than an probe.

 

My experience with API is that when an API kit says your pH is 7.8-8, it is probably really between 7.6-7.8, which is fine for a pre-light measurement.

 

Here is a good article on alkalinity.

 

I used Salifert Mg and Ca kits when I had the money and I made my own alkalinity kits.

[drfu]

Colorimetric kits always have a margin of error greater than an probe.My experience with API is that when an API kit says your pH is 7.8-8, it is probably really between 7.6-7.8, which is fine for a pre-light measurement.http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/'>Here is a good article on alkalinity.I used Salifert Mg and Ca kits when I had the money and I made my own alkalinity kits.

 

Great read, thanks! If i could go back and do it all over again i would buy all salifert kits. Think when any of my API runs out i will change, at least on nitrates, i don't mind the ca &kh tests from api.

 

So after everyones advice i have done 3 tests in the last 18 hours after a 15%'water change:

 

10pm last night

Kh 179-196 or 10-11%

Ca 380

Salinity 1.025

Ph 8

Nitrates 5-10

Ammonia, nitrites, phosphate, all below detection levels with api

Don't have a test for mg

8am this morning

Kh 179

Ca 380 - 400

Salinity 1.025-1.026

Ph 8

Nitrates 5-10

Still no ammonia, nitrites, phos

 

3pm today

Kh 179-196

Ca 380-400

Salinity 1.025-1.026

Ph 8.2

Nitrates 5-19

No detectible amm,nit,phos

 

So my conclusion is this, tell me if I'm wrong:

Kh is a bit high but stable, stop worrying about it & quit testing daily

Ca is stable, a bit low for a reef & keep testing daily to see if it drops and dose lightly with some sort of calcium supplement

Salt level is good, top up w/conditioned water to keep @ 1.025, check half way through the week when doing top offs

Ph range is okay for day/night, quit testing daily unless start dosing with something

Nitrates are okay, stop testing daily, continue doing 20% water changes every week.

 

All my coral look great and have seen growth since i have got them, except for my Gorgonian, who i have moved 5 times in two weeks, poor guy, but I'm hoping the colour comes back!

 

The only other to consider is mixing my own salt w, oceans reef formula, that would take care of the ca level imo? Prob with that is time & some think that using conditioned tap water is bad..........here in Calgary its quite good minus the chlorine and chloramine which water conditioner takes care of.

 

So now the question is this, can i add a fish to my tank in the next week or two?

[Eclipse]

Great read, thanks! If i could go back and do it all over again i would buy all salifert kits. Think when any of my API runs out i will change, at least on nitrates, i don't mind the ca &kh tests from api. So after everyones advice i have done 3 tests in the last 18 hours after a 15%'water change: 10pm last night Kh 179-196 or 10-11% Ca 380 Salinity 1.025 Ph 8 Nitrates 5-10 Ammonia, nitrites, phosphate, all below detection levels with api Don't have a test for mg 8am this morning Kh 179 Ca 380 - 400 Salinity 1.025-1.026 Ph 8 Nitrates 5-10 Still no ammonia, nitrites, phos 3pm today Kh 179-196 Ca 380-400 Salinity 1.025-1.026 Ph 8.2 Nitrates 5-19 No detectible amm,nit,phos So my conclusion is this, tell me if I'm wrong: Kh is a bit high but stable, stop worrying about it & quit testing daily Ca is stable, a bit low for a reef & keep testing daily to see if it drops and dose lightly with some sort of calcium supplement Salt level is good, top up w/conditioned water to keep @ 1.025, check half way through the week when doing top offs Ph range is okay for day/night, quit testing daily unless start dosing with something Nitrates are okay, stop testing daily, continue doing 20% water changes every week. All my coral look great and have seen growth since i have got them, except for my Gorgonian, who i have moved 5 times in two weeks, poor guy, but I'm hoping the colour comes back! The only other to consider is mixing my own salt w, oceans reef formula, that would take care of the ca level imo? Prob with that is time & some think that using conditioned tap water is bad..........here in Calgary its quite good minus the chlorine and chloramine which water conditioner takes care of. So now the question is this, can i add a fish to my tank in the next week or two?

The thing is that salifert is a bit expensive, haha. I can see that calcium is a bit low, but I'll leave the answer to your dosing to someone else, since I don't dose. As for a fish, I don't see why not. What do you plan on getting? Also don't stress on nitrates too much, 5-10 is fine for what you have currently.

[drfu]

The thing is that salifert is a bit expensive, haha. I can see that calcium is a bit low, but I'll leave the answer to your dosing to someone else, since I don't dose. As for a fish, I don't see why not. What do you plan on getting? Also don't stress on nitrates too much, 5-10 is fine for what you have currently.

 

They are expensive up here expecially! Guess that is why i went with API, also cause they were good enough for all of my fw set ups. As for a fish i have two opinions:

One is a ocellaris Clownfish with the thoughts of moving him in a year to a larger tank(maybe two depending on if i covert one of my fw or buy the sw tank i want)

Other is a peacefull Goby & blenny, one each and keep them in my IM Nuvo 8

 

Thoughts?

[Mr. Fosi]

I like clowns, but I have kids and don't care much about fish.

 

With the stoney corals you have in there, you need to get an Mg test kit and start thinking about how you will get Ca in there. The Ca is a little low, but not too bad.

 

If you don't want to be doing waterchanges all the time, dosing will be required. Rather than write a discourse on dosing in this thread, I'll leave it to you to do a little research first. Once you have specific questions, there will be plenty of help here at NR.com.

 

You'll want to get that NO₃ down and probably the least intrusive way to do that is to rig up a place to keep some macroalgae like Chaetomorpha sp. to take it up.

[drfu]

I like clowns, but I have kids and don't care much about fish.With the stoney corals you have in there, you need to get an Mg test kit and start thinking about how you will get Ca in there. The Ca is a little low, but not too bad.If you don't want to be doing waterchanges all the time, dosing will be required. Rather than write a discourse on dosing in this thread, I'll leave it to you to do a little research first. Once you have specific questions, there will be plenty of help here at NR.com.You'll want to get that NO₃ down and probably the least intrusive way to do that is to rig up a place to keep some macroalgae like Chaetomorpha sp. to take it up.

 

Just got my Salifert mg test kit, reads 1350. I also picked up today their ph, nitrate & ammonia test kits. Yes ammonia as I'm starting a second kit and as you know API stinks!

 

As for Ca, i purchased on sale the following, AquaVitro 8.4, calcification & fuel.

 

First 8.4, my new kit showed 8.0 this afternoon, will do morning, afternoon and evening readings tomorrow. May or may not dose with this depending on my readings.

 

Calcification, still hovers around 380-420, started using this last week, being doing 5ml twice so far, seems to keep it steady which considering how many coral frags i got in a 8 gallon tank i feel I'm doing okay?

 

Fuel, i do half of what they say half as much as i don't need any issues with algae. All corals are growing though my monti plate does not seem to grow that fast, has good color?

 

Since i have a custom basket for my cpe, ff, pur i am going to use my stock basket and put cheato and or ulva in it, have on order a 10 watt submersible led to go in the back water column for it. The one thing i could run into is i use Control 4 home automation to control the lights for all three tanks, each module only has tow outputs and i have my blue leds run separately so i can not run the fuge light in reverse cycle from daytime. I could run the fuge with my blues (1 hour befor sunrise, turn off @ midnight) but at will not nelp the ph day/night changes, thoughts? I know any plant should not have light 24/7 or am i wrong about this with cheato?

 

 

[drfu]

Second tank cycle after 9 days

10 am tests:

Salinity 1.025, refractometer, temp 79.2 digital marina gauge

Ph8.0, salifert

Ammonia, undetectable, salifert

Nitrite & copper, undetectable, api

Nitrate 5 ppm, salifert. 5-20 on api

Magnesium 1200, salifert

Kh over 214, api had to use 14 dropps to get a solid yellow, started changing to yellow @ 12. Have ordered a hanna checker for alkalinity

Ca400-420, api. Ordered hanna checker for ca

Phosphate .25, api. Hanna ordered

 

 

 

 

[drfu]

I like clowns, but I have kids and don't care much about fish.With the stoney corals you have in there, you need to get an Mg test kit and start thinking about how you will get Ca in there. The Ca is a little low, but not too bad.If you don't want to be doing waterchanges all the time, dosing will be required. Rather than write a discourse on dosing in this thread, I'll leave it to you to do a little research first. Once you have specific questions, there will be plenty of help here at NR.com.You'll want to get that NO₃ down and probably the least intrusive way to do that is to rig up a place to keep some macroalgae like Chaetomorpha sp. to take it up.

 

Main tank readings at 11am mst

Salinity 1.025, temp 79.2

Ph 8.0, maybe 8.1 sailfert. 8.0 on api. I don't think salifert is any better than api for this test, does anyone have anything better or does it even matter?

Ammonia, below detection, salifert

Nitrite & copper, below detection, api

Nitrate 2ppm, salifert. Api says 0?

Magnesium, 1350, salifert

Phosphate undetectable api, ordered on line the Hanna Checker phosphate tester

Kh 11dkh or 196 ppm, api. Hanna checker on order

Ca 450, api. Hanna on order

 

Thoughts?

 

[Mr. Fosi]

I guess I'll try them in order.

AquaVitro 8.4, calcification & fuel.

I've not used any of those, so I suppose others will have to comment and you will have to make choices based on the observed effects.

First 8.4, my new kit showed 8.0 this afternoon, will do morning, afternoon and evening readings tomorrow.

Sounds good. As long as you don't dip down below 7.6, I'd say you're doing fine.

 

Calcification, still hovers around 380-420, started using this last week, being doing 5ml twice so far, seems to keep it steady which considering how many coral frags i got in a 8 gallon tank i feel I'm doing okay?

If things are growing and keeping their color, I say steady-on.

 

Fuel, i do half of what they say half as much as i don't need any issues with algae. All corals are growing though my monti plate does not seem to grow that fast, has good color?

If they were growing well before the fuel, I say don't use it. Of course, I am of the general opinion that if it ain't broke, you shouldn't fix it.

 

... i am going to use my stock basket and put cheato and or ulva in it, have on order a 10 watt submersible led to go in the back water column for it.

I'd forget the Ulva sp. and stick with the Chaetomorpha sp. because the chaeto will put up with much abuse without coming apart on you. I know some people love their 10W submersible lights, but I have always been dubious about their ability to maximize algae growth (and therefore nutrient uptake).

 

... i can not run the fuge light in reverse cycle from daytime. I could run the fuge with my blues (1 hour befor sunrise, turn off @ midnight) but at will not nelp the ph day/night changes, thoughts? I know any plant should not have light 24/7 or am i wrong about this with cheato?

You don't have to reverse/phase your lights, it's just convenient. You can run the fuge light 24/7 without having any problem with the chaeto. People consider algae plants, but don't think of them as higher-plants. Algae don't have the complex hormone-driven physiology that higher plants do, so light phases aren't as important, especially when you consider what they are being used for in the tank.

 

I don't think salifert is any better than api for this test, does anyone have anything better or does it even matter?

I'm not a fan of wet-chem pH tests, no matter who makes them. Colorimetric tests are limited by the range of the dye(s), none of which have a perfectly sharp color-change peak. That makes them precise and accurate enough, but if you really want resolution of 0.10 pH, then you need a properly calibrated probe. I'm not saying you need such a thing, but you need to be aware of your own priorities.

 

Nitrate 2ppm, salifert. Api says 0?

Trust the Salifert. I don't recall what their limit of detection is, but I am willing to bet it is lower than API.

 

It looks like things are relatively well in-hand, at least if the downward NO₃ trend continues and your new PO₄ tests stay at undetectable.

 

As I mentioned before, if everyone in the tank looks happy, I say steady-on. Once you strike upon the tools and methods that get the livestock where they are happy enough to keep their color and to grow, the name of the game is being consistent.

[supernip]

HOLY SHIT FOSI. WHERE YOU BEEN FATTY??

[drfu]

I guess I'll try them in order.I've not used any of those, so I suppose others will have to comment and you will have to make choices based on the observed effects. Sounds good. As long as you don't dip down below 7.6, I'd say you're doing fine. If things are growing and keeping their color, I say steady-on. If they were growing well before the fuel, I say don't use it. Of course, I am of the general opinion that if it ain't broke, you shouldn't fix it. I'd forget the Ulva sp. and stick with the Chaetomorpha sp. because the chaeto will put up with much abuse without coming apart on you. I know some people love their 10W submersible lights, but I have always been dubious about their ability to maximize algae growth (and therefore nutrient uptake). You don't have to reverse/phase your lights, it's just convenient. You can run the fuge light 24/7 without having any problem with the chaeto. People consider algae plants, but don't think of them as higher-plants. Algae don't have the complex hormone-driven physiology that higher plants do, so light phases aren't as important, especially when you consider what they are being used for in the tank. I'm not a fan of wet-chem pH tests, no matter who makes them. Colorimetric tests are limited by the range of the dye(s), none of which have a perfectly sharp color-change peak. That makes them precise and accurate enough, but if you really want resolution of 0.10 pH, then you need a properly calibrated probe. I'm not saying you need such a thing, but you need to be aware of your own priorities. Trust the Salifert. I don't recall what their limit of detection is, but I am willing to bet it is lower than API.It looks like things are relatively well in-hand, at least if the downward NO₃ trend continues and your new PO₄ tests stay at undetectable.As I mentioned before, if everyone in the tank looks happy, I say steady-on. Once you strike upon the tools and methods that get the livestock where they are happy enough to keep their color and to grow, the name of the game is being consistent.

 

Thank you very much for your input, this is very helpful, thanks again

[Mr. Fosi]

Thank you very much for your input, this is very helpful, thanks again

No probs.

 

@nip: Been off in RL, lol. I think I am finally coming around again to a place that I can consider hobbies.

[drfu]

No probs.@nip: Been off in RL, lol. I think I am finally coming around again to a place that I can consider hobbies.

 

One more question if you don't mind? On my second set up which just finished its cycle, 10 days old, my Mg is only 1200, I'm thinking this could be because i used 5 gallons of the lfs premix as they don't use a reef salt. Its a 15 gallon tank with 15 lbs of live rock that was already cured from another tank & 20lbs of live sand, Carib sea live agg. Below are my tests but should i worry about it only being @ 1200. My next water change next week will be 5 gallons of my mix, Oceans Reef salt.

 

 

Day 10: Added my CUC which consists of 5 trochus, 5 nassarius, 3 nerites & 7 dwarf ceriths. I also took 2 bumble bees from my other tank to help take care of my massive brown algae(detritus) breakout. Since last night my Trochus have cleaned up a lot of rock, love these guys, eat a ton but could be worried that 5 might be too much after they are done on the clean up? Todays levels: Salinity 1.025, temp is 79.3. Ph 8.0, Nh4 0. Used new Salifert test kits, seem good so far! Mg 1200??? NO3 is 5, Salifert as well. No detectable copper, nitrites API Kh 214, Ca420-440, Some PO4 but i believe its below .25ppm API. I have ordered Hanna checker for all three of these tests as they are extremely important.

 

Here is a link to this build if needed

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/341061-aqueon-15-column-fw-to-reef-conversion-build/?p=4635039

[Mr. Fosi]

... should i worry about it only being @ 1200.

No. It is good to keep it above 1200, but Mg isn't mission-critical in the way that NH₃ is. Mg feeds into your buffering system and helps keep Ca in solution during pH spikes. It also co-deposits with the Ca when coral lay down skeleton.

... could be worried that 5 might be too much after they are done on the clean up?

If you're worried, swap them out.

... NO3 is 5...

So much for the downward trend. I wonder if your chaeto + 10W light will help.

... Some PO4 but i believe its below .25ppm API...

Same as above.

 

I am interested to see if your algae will help out, but it will take a little time to tell.

[drfu]

Yes, we shall see, km also worried about my clean up crew that put in yesterday, im sure they don't like the phosphates or nitrates as well! Worse is my powerheads didn't show up today so all i have is my two filters going and combined they only pump out 245 gph! This fuge has the marine 4 watt marine 12k light in it, its retrofitted inside the hob filter that i converted to the fuge, its like 1" above the algae. It would take a week to see growth correct?

[supernip]

say hello to the lounge fosi

[Mr. Fosi]

... km also worried about my clean up crew that put in yesterday, im sure they don't like the phosphates or nitrates as well!

They'll be fine. Those sorts of animals don't mind so much. If anyone will have issues it will be the corals.

It would take a week to see growth correct?

Hard to say. Depending on lighting, flow, and other conditions, you may see growth in a week or it may take a month. It may seem like it's doing nothing, then suddenly kick into high gear. That's why I say, "I wonder if..."

 

@nip: I have avoided the lounge because I don't want to get sucked into the vortex. I may find time to stop by eventually.

[drfu]

They'll be fine. Those sorts of animals don't mind so much. If anyone will have issues it will be the corals.Hard to say. Depending on lighting, flow, and other conditions, you may see growth in a week or it may take a month. It may seem like it's doing nothing, then suddenly kick into high gear. That's why I say, "I wonder if..."@nip: I have avoided the lounge because I don't want to get sucked into the vortex. I may find time to stop by eventually.

 

So my Hanna checkers arrived today, got Phosphorus, alk & Ca. On my new build and on my existing tank showed me some things i didn't like!

 

On my 3 month old tank that has a cuc, my clowns & lots of sps/lps results are as follows:

API, Ca between 380-420. With Hanna its 535, i was dosing Ca once a week, yikers,

API phosphate non detectable. With Hanna phosphorus levels are 6 ppb, which works out to .03 phosphates so okay there.

API ka and Hanna seems to be dead on, just no counting and of course no guessing so i would say if your on a budget their is nothing wrong with API.

 

On my new build that is only 13 day old, same thing with Ca, i had 400-440 with API, hanna again 530, was dosing with Kent Purple Tech!

Ka, same as older tank, but on Phosphorus with Hanna & phosphate with API, API was iut to lunch! My Phosphorus levels were 45, or .137 phosphate levels, API was still undetectable, thats way off!!!

 

Conclusion, Get Hanna for Ca & Phosphorus/phosphate tests, API is fine for Ka. Salifert for Nitrates, ammonia, PH & magnesium. Im also fine with API for Nitrite though i have nothing to compare it to.

 

Also got my 3 hydor powerheads in, blew off some stuff off my rock, changed out my ff, did another 15 wc and we will see where we are at on this new build next week

[Mr. Fosi]

API = general lolz

[tran]

ph is the least that anyone have to worry.

you should just focus on testing the ammonia, nitrite and possible nitrate (that is it) since you are still going thru the cycling.