Kinda Confused on Auto-Dosing

[TheKleinReef]

Alright here's my plan:

get this: http://www.aquacave.com/GHL-ProfiLux-Stand-Alone-Dosing-System-4-Pumps-w-Controller-P2939.aspx

 

and use seachem's powders for Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium, and i'm not sure about the fourth (any suggestions?)

 

my question is... how do i make a saturated solution of the elements for the dosing containers?

here's the directions for Calcium:

 

BEGINNER: Use 5 g (1 level teaspoon*) per 150 L (40 gallons*) twice a week. Dissolve in at least 250 mL (1 cup*) of freshwater. Check calcium every 2 weeks and adjust amount or frequency accordingly. ADVANCED: Check calcium level, then follow addition regimen above until calcium is adjusted to 380–420 mg/L. Each 5 g/150 L will raise calcium by about 12 mg/L. Quantity or frequency can be adjusted, but do not exceed 10 g/150L per day. Thereafter, use as required to maintain calcium. EXPERT: After determining the calcium consumption rate, set up a continuous drip system. Use the following formula to determine how much to add to your top-off water: m=vc/400 (m=grams to add to top off water, v=volume of tank in liters, c=amount to raise calcium in mg/L). For example, if you want to raise calcium by 25 mg/L in a 200 liter tank, then you would add 200x25/400=12.5 g into the top-off water. [For reference: 1 gallon*=3.8 liters, 5 g=1 teaspoon*]. HINTS: If used with Reef Calcium™, it is not necessary to exceed 380 mg/L total calcium. Use Reef Status™: Calcium to measure calcium.

 

I'm not exactly sure how to mix the Ca/alk/mag in RODI to make the solution saturated enough so i can just dose the saturated mix.I hope i'm making sense. All of the liquid stuff makes sense, but i prefer these powders because i have been using them for almost 2 years.

 

Hopefully someone can shine some light on this for me, without saying "use b-ionic its easier."

 

thanks in advance.

-roger

[Deckoz2302]

Soda ash for alk is 100g/1000ml = 0.34dkh/10ml/25gallon

Calcium chloride for ca = 550g/1000ml = 2ppm/ml/25gallon

Magnesium sulfate/chloride mix = 600g/1000ml = 2ppm/ml/25gallon

 

The levels in that description work when doing powder dosing. However to make stock solution the above numberrs make tge most saturated solution you can make. Calcium and magnesium will heat up when mixed when rodi so that it will saturate ln its own just keep mixing as they may reach boiling point. Alk on the other hand needs to bave rhe water at 90 degrees or higher to saturate the solution while mixing..then it wil hold once cooled

[TheKleinReef]

Soda ash for alk is 100g/1000ml = 0.34dkh/10ml/25gallon

Calcium chloride for ca = 550g/1000ml = 2ppm/ml/25gallon

Magnesium sulfate/chloride mix = 600g/1000ml = 2ppm/ml/25gallon

 

The levels in that description work when doing powder dosing. However to make stock solution the above numberrs make tge most saturated solution you can make. Calcium and magnesium will heat up when mixed when rodi so that it will saturate ln its own just keep mixing as they may reach boiling point. Alk on the other hand needs to bave rhe water at 90 degrees or higher to saturate the solution while mixing..then it wil hold once cooled

 

uhhh

you might have to dumb that down for me...

 

for example: i put 550g in 1000ml and dosing that'll raise 25g 2 ppm in 1mL of solution?

 

this is way over my head. sorry

[Deckoz2302]

uhhh you might have to dumb that down for me... for example: i put 550g in 1000ml and dosing that'll raise 25g 2 ppm in 1mL of solution? this is way over my head. sorry

Exactly. 550grams of powder into 1000ml rodi will make approximately 1200ml of solution, that solution will change 25 gallons of water by 2ppm per milliliter. You got it exactly

 

Here is a write up on how to equivalate 25 gallons to your tank volume

 

 

Hey man I figured you would be a perfect person to ask about this stuff. I have never used dosing pumps nor have I ever dosed so I will gladly take all the help I can get. I have recently starting manually dosing brs soda ash to raise my alk level and maintain it at about 8.5. My cal stays right around 500 and mag levels seem to be pretty stable as well. what supplements do you recommend?

 

First are you doing wateechanges?

If so

Soda ash

Calcium cloride

Magnesium sulfate.

 

With your water changes you will want to add the necessary additives to your watee change water to make your target params so that when you do a water change you arent throwing off your parameters that youve achieved in your tank.

 

Anyway once you figure out how much to add per gallon you will just add that to the water like you do salt ie salt half cup per gallon plus 3grams of soda ash gets me to where my water change water needs to be without making the tanks water drop alk. What im saying is if just the salt mixes to 8dkh but I run my tank at 12dkh and do a 25% water change my tank will drop to 11dkh. So you want your water to mix at what you run your tank at. For soda ash 1 gram will up 25 gallons of water by 0.34dkh. So mix test ect until you figure out how much you need for your watee change water.

 

Anyway what im getting at is you do the above to get your tank to your target parameters for mag/ca/alk. Once the tank teat at target you wait 3 days and test again. For example if your target is 8.5dkh amd 3 days later your tank tesrs at. 7.1 your tank used 1.4dkh or 0.46dkh/day. So if soda ash changes 0.34dkh per gram or per 10ml of stock solution. That same gram or 10ml on 30 gallons would only raise it by 0.28dkh. In order to raise it 0.46 daily you would use 1.6 grams or 16.4ml.

 

So on your brs doser that does 1.1ml/s you would program the doser to be on for 14.9 seconds to pumpe 16.4ml...

 

Here is the math

 

Target - result of test = drop

Example: 8.5 - 7.1 = 1.4

 

Drop ÷ days waited = daily drop

Example: 1.4 ÷ 3 = 0.46

 

Equivalate 1 gram of ash to tank volume. One gram of ash is 0.34dkh per 25 gallons

Ash effective volume ÷ tank volume = percent effective

Example: 25 ÷ 30 = 0.83

 

Dkh effective × percent effective = dkh change relative to volume

Example: 0.34 × 0.83 = 0.28

 

Now we have to figure the grams to meet the daily drop

Daily drop ÷ dkh relative to volume = grams

Example: 0.46 ÷ 0.28 = 1.64

 

Convert to stock solution. 100 grams in 1000ml = 10ml is 1 gram

 

So grams to ml

Grams × 10 = ml

 

In above scenario 16.4ml = 1.64 grams = 0.46dkh / 30 gallons

Same math is used for mag and calc you just change the effective ppm

[doppelganger]

What on earth...

 

Think of it like 2 part. If you dissolve 5 grams in 250ml of water:

 

250ml per 40G will raise calcium by 12 --> 6.25ml per 1 gallon

 

If your tank is 25G you'd add 156.25ml of this disolved liquid to raise your tank calcium by 12ppm

 

if you want to know how much calcium powder to use to raise it by 12ppm in 25G you use their formula. 12ppm x 95L / 400 = 2.85g

 

Either way, you'll have to test, dose, and test again and adjust accordingly. How much water you dissolve it in doesn't make much of a diff if that's what's throwing you off. If your auto dosing you'd just make it more concentrated so you don't have to dose as much liquid.

 

I dunno maybe I'm completely off... that's how I see this as anyways. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong... I hope.

[TheKleinReef]

What on earth...

 

Think of it like 2 part. If you dissolve 5 grams in 250ml of water:

 

250ml per 40G will raise calcium by 12 --> 6.25ml per 1 gallon

 

If your tank is 25G you'd add 156.25ml of this disolved liquid to raise your tank calcium by 12ppm

 

if you want to know how much calcium powder to use to raise it by 12ppm in 25G you use their formula. 12ppm x 95L / 400 = 2.85g

 

Either way, you'll have to test, dose, and test again and adjust accordingly. How much water you dissolve it in doesn't make much of a diff if that's what's throwing you off. If your auto dosing you'd just make it more concentrated so you don't have to dose as much liquid.

 

I dunno maybe I'm completely off... that's how I see this as anyways. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong... I hope.

This helped a tad. Hah thanks

[Deckoz2302]

How did that not make sense? Lol seachem powders are made from those 4 ingredients. The mix I told you above is the most concentrated mix you can make just shy of precipitation.

 

You can use the mix that he said above but if you have dosing containers just with calcium for example your going to use 156ml to raise 12ppm...or 6ml with a concentrated solution.

 

On my 25gallon when I had it I was dosing 38ml/day of 2ppm concentrate...if I did the lightly dissolved solution stated above which is just in the instructions so that your not dosing powder and getting deposits on equipment. I would have been using close to a liter of lightly dissolved stock solution and would have had to fill my dosing containers daily.

[TheKleinReef]

How did that not make sense? Lol seachem powders are made from those 4 ingredients. The mix I told you above is the most concentrated mix you can make just shy of precipitation.

 

You can use the mix that he said above but if you have dosing containers just with calcium for example your going to use 156ml to raise 12ppm...or 6ml with a concentrated solution.

 

On my 25gallon when I had it I was dosing 38ml/day of 2ppm concentrate...if I did the lightly dissolved solution stated above which is just in the instructions so that your not dosing powder and getting deposits on equipment. I would have been using close to a liter of lightly dissolved stock solution and would have had to fill my dosing containers daily.

 

gotcha. its starting to clear up a bit. lol thanks

its all the equations that's just like...

so many of them. ha

[Deckoz2302]

gotcha. its starting to clear up a bit. lol thanks

its all the equations that's just like...

so many of them. ha

Well I coyld show you the big equation where you just plug the stuff in as the variables..but I wanted jgpico and yoy to see it simplified so you know where each number comes from...

 

 

[TheKleinReef]

Well I coyld show you the big equation where you just plug the stuff in as the variables..but I wanted jgpico and yoy to see it simplified so you know where each number comes from...

 

that'd be nice. a plug and chug kinda thing would be nice. haha

i semi-understand it, just not sure how to calculate all three.

[Deckoz2302]

Let me write it out and ill do an example of each

[TheKleinReef]

Let me write it out and ill do an example of each

 

you. are. too.awesome.

[Deckoz2302]

((T/d)/((25/v)e))

So
T = total drop
D = days passed
25 = control variable in gallon
V = volume in gallons
E = effective ratio

So calcium on your 29 gallin drops 57ppm in 3 days and our stock solution has a 2ppm effective ratio per 25 gallons

((57/3)/((25/29)2))=11.02ml/day

Magnesium effective variable is the same thing as above 2ppm/ml

 

so magnesium drops 6ppm in 3 days on 29 gallons

 

((6/3)/((25/29)2))=1.16ml/day

Dkh effective variable is 0.34/10ml

 

So your tank drops 3.7dkh in 3 days on 29 gallons

 

((3.7/3)/((25/29)0.34))=4.19 x 10 = 41.9ml/day

 

hope that makes more sense....sorry lol

[TheKleinReef]

((T/d)/((25/v)e))

 

So

T = total drop

D = days passed

25 = control variable in gallon

V = volume in gallons

E = effective ratio

 

So calcium on your 29 gallin drops 57ppm in 3 days and our stock solution has a 2ppm effective ratio per 25 gallons

 

((57/3)/((25/29)2))=

 

Magnesium effective variable is the same thing as above 2ppm/ml

 

Dkh effective variable is 0.034/ml

 

alright, how does the effective variable come into play? what does that mean, just how effective it is at raising x amount of water?

[Deckoz2302]

yea read my edit for the example of each.

 

but yes the effective variable is how effective it is at raising x amount of water.

 

with the solutions i stated in the second post at near precipitation levels(basically the most concentrated you can make the dosing solutions to save space and get the most bang per volume of space) that is the effective ratio. if you were to say mix at half of that ie calcium at 275g/1000ml you would cut it in half to 1ppm/ml effective ratio on 25 gallons

[Deckoz2302]

later on when your adjusting you would do it like so. So now we are dosing 11.02ml/day of calcium. We test on a weekly basis. Our target number is 470ppm...its been 7 days since our last test and up until this week 11.02ml/day has been sustaining 470ppm. We test today and our test comes out at 457ppm?

 

((13/7)/((25/29)2)) = 1.07ml/day adjustment.

 

So the new dose will be 12.09ml/day

[TheKleinReef]

later on when your adjusting you would do it like so. So now we are dosing 11.02ml/day of calcium. We test on a weekly basis. Our target number is 470ppm...its been 7 days since our last test and up until this week 11.02ml/day has been sustaining 470ppm. We test today and our test comes out at 457ppm?

 

((13/7)/((25/29)2)) = 1.07ml/day adjustment.

 

So the new dose will be 12.09ml/day

 

i think i understand this. thanks so much!

[TheKleinReef]

one last question. i have a 50g system.

so if i used this: Soda ash for alk is 100g/1000ml = 0.34dkh/10ml/25gallon

 

for this example.

 

my dkh drops .5 every day. so i would need to dose 29.4 mL per day to keep it stable right?

just trying to make sure i get this.

 

10ml/0.34 = x/0.5

10(.5) = .034(x)

5 = 0.34x

x = 14.7 mL per 25 g

2x = 29.4 for 50g.

[Deckoz2302]

one last question. i have a 50g system.

so if i used this: Soda ash for alk is 100g/1000ml = 0.34dkh/10ml/25gallon

 

for this example.

 

my dkh drops .5 every day. so i would need to dose 29.4 mL per day to keep it stable right?

just trying to make sure i get this.

 

10ml/0.34 = x/0.5

10(.5) = .034(x)

5 = 0.34x

x = 14.7 mL per 25 g

2x = 29.4 for 50g.

 

Yes. But one thing to remember if your doing one dose per day this number will stay the same. But if you split the dose up over every couple hours. The tank will remain more stable. When you first start on a multicycle/day dose you may end up using more than what your tank is using at first...so after a week you may see your alk rising (just do the equation and subtract that from the ml) once yoyr tank runs steady with stable alk for a few weeks out of no where you'll continue to see your alk usage rise steadily. Vs manual. Hand dosing where the dose may stay the same for a couple months.

[TheKleinReef]

Yes. But one thing to remember if your doing one dose per day this number will stay the same. But if you split the dose up over every couple hours. The tank will remain more stable. When you first start on a multicycle/day dose you may end up using more than what your tank is using at first...so after a week you may see your alk rising (just do the equation and subtract that from the ml) once yoyr tank runs steady with stable alk for a few weeks out of no where you'll continue to see your alk usage rise steadily. Vs manual. Hand dosing where the dose may stay the same for a couple months.

Alright I got it! Thanks again! You're the man!

[Deckoz2302]

I try lol

[Spirofucci]

Brad is the best!

 

But.......why don't you just use ESV Bionic two part? Yes more expensive, but I get it in the gal jugs......lasts forever....

[Deckoz2302]

Brad is the best!

But.......why don't you just use ESV Bionic two part? Yes more expensive, but I get it in the gal jugs......lasts forever....

 

Bionic gallons....42 bucks. ..powder 15....just add rodi.

 

Thanks spiro lol

[TheKleinReef]

Bionic gallons....42 bucks. ..powder 15....just add rodi. Thanks spiro lol

 

that's why.

 

and i've tried ESV, i'm not a fan of how much you have to use.

[MikeTR]

saving this for the equations.. just about to start as well..