Cultivating a zoo morph?

[Otter]

Don't get me wrong, I love my gorilla nipples, but one colony has a morph that's simply amazing. It's a baby blue center, bright red exterior, and a blue skirt with metallic green highlights. These guys seem a little bit weaker/smaller than the parent colony, too, with longer stalks, smaller heads, and smaller skirts.

 

I've clipped about five heads from the morph and mounted them to rubble. I'm very interested to see if they'll propagate with the same colors or go back to the original "parent" morph. Does anyone have experience or advice with cultivating a specific color? It's a quest to get a few colonies started that have color varient as the dominant color.

 

Colony has been under standard Nanocube DX lights for 6 months and color throughout colony has stabilized.

[proraptor2]

Zoas will change to the color they want and you cant control it...Hopefully the new morph keeps its color....

[Otter]

I don't know if that's the case. Light and feeding plays a role but genetics must also ... otherwise zoos within the same general area (such as a fish tank) would share the same color no matter what.

 

With all the research into flower genetics, cultivation, and propagation out there, it stands to reason that the same ideas can be applied to coral.

[proraptor2]

Ive messed with zoas trying everything to get them to change color....Cut a frag and place it in a tank with the salinity at about 1.035 thats the only way I got them to change color and that took a couple months....I pulled them out and put them back in my main tank 1.025 and they changed back to the original color...

 

I feed my zoas cyclopeeze, mysis, and brine and they do eat but I havent seen any color changes other than excellerated growth...

[mvite]

I feed my zoas cyclopeeze, mysis, and brine and they do eat but I havent seen any color changes other than excellerated growth...

 

How do you get them to eat it? I have tried and tried and nothing sticks when I grind up and baste them---and they won't close on something---I don't think mine eat.

[apex003]

Ive messed with zoas trying everything to get them to change color....Cut a frag and place it in a tank with the salinity at about 1.035 thats the only way I got them to change color and that took a couple months....I pulled them out and put them back in my main tank 1.025 and they changed back to the original color...

 

I feed my zoas cyclopeeze, mysis, and brine and they do eat but I havent seen any color changes other than excellerated growth...

 

You're confusing nature and nurture, proraptor. If the morph's genetics are primarily responsible for the better color (probably true), then Otter's cutting should keep the color like she said. Your changing the salinity doesn't change the genetics and any color change due to enviromental change would be reversed when returned to the original environment, like you saw. How else could nature go from the first zoa morph to the hundreds/thousands we see now? It's evolution, baby. Like Pearl Jam said...

[Otter]

How do you get them to eat it? I have tried and tried and nothing sticks when I grind up and baste them---and they won't close on something---I don't think mine eat.

 

I think they eat at a level too small for us to detect visually. When I cyclopeeze the tank, I see the skirts flicker a bit but no actual food intake like on my softies, and I've never actually seen them eat mystid.

 

You're confusing nature and nurture, proraptor. If the morph's genetics are primarily responsible for the better color (probably true), then Otter's cutting should keep the color like he said. Your changing the salinity doesn't change the genetics and any color change due to enviromental change would be reversed when returned to the original environment, like you saw. How else could nature go from the first zoa morph to the hundreds/thousands we see now? It's evolution, baby. Like Pearl Jam said...

 

(/cough: she )

 

That's my reasoning, but I've got nothing to back it up. I'm familiar with how people cultivate show roses (cut & graft, wait six months, etc etc) and this seems like it would be just as effective with zoos EXCEPT for the whole not-plant-but-animal thing. It takes 14 generations to fully domesticate an animal and see initial breeding for desired traits, so I have a bunch of questions about breeding them:

 

1) What counts as a generation in a zoo?

2) When they spread, is that asexual cloning or just growth?

3) Where does their new DNA come from?

 

I'd LOVE some links on this if anyone can recommend them.

[apex003]

Sorry Otter! She it is...

 

Those are all very good questions. You'd be hard pressed to find any good peer-reviewed research on zoanthids, but you could try a search on PubMed. That's the NIH's database of published scientific articles.

 

(/cough: she )

 

see edit above...

[Nishant3789]

Sorry Otter! She it is...

 

Those are all very good questions. You'd be hard pressed to find any good peer-reviewed research on zoanthids, but you could try a search on PubMed. That's the NIH's database of published scientific articles.

see edit above...

 

i would think that each generation comes only with each new sexual reproduction, which is pretty rare in our tanks. budding and fission is a form of asexual reproduction. no new genes are being introduced, your just banking on genetic mutation which infact is actually VERY rare in asexual reproduction. im pretty sure all this info is accurate, but hell i failed AP biology this year.

[Otter]

Sorry Otter! She it is...

 

Those are all very good questions. You'd be hard pressed to find any good peer-reviewed research on zoanthids, but you could try a search on PubMed. That's the NIH's database of published scientific articles.

see edit above...

 

Yeah, I ran a few engines before I posted the original but most of the data is on potential medicinal properties, toxicity, etc. I think this stuff is seen as basic in the scientific community and no one writes about it.

[gstatton]

this is an extreemly intersting topic, i hope it doesn't fall off the radar.....

my questions is (i asume) are fairly simple: do zoanthids spawn (i assume they do)? and what are the conditions in which they will spawn (do "we" even know that for any coral?) are the "spawnings" a release of both genetic materials? or just one?

ok, so i guess it's a few questions....sorry if they are faily simple (aka dumb) questions, but you all have me intrigued....

[Jon in SW Ohio]

Yes zoas do spawn and release eggs and sperm. I doubt anyone has found the exact trigger, but many believe most corals spawn triggered by the moon phase at night. This is pretty rare in aquariums, but it does happen. I saw a link a while back on another forum that actually showed a zoa colony releasing eggs/sperm. Domesticating generations are from sexual reproduction, not asexual.

 

I've grown orchids for many years, and mutations while cloning are actually pretty common...at least not what I would consider super rare. Do a google search for Phalaenopsis Golden Peoker and you will see a very popular invitro mutation. I also raise garden plants called Hosta, and it is very common for them to throw a 'sport' which is a new growth from the colony that is different looking. Typically it is one that is variegated or differently textured, but still a connected offshoot of the parent colony.

 

I am however not even close to being a zoanthid expert and have been disappointed with the available research on them. It is my speculation that a colony is a group of clones, like a colony of Hosta is, and that they throw 'sports' as well. I wonder though, if color would be genetically determined on them at all since the color comes from their symbiotic zooxanthellae living in them. I would love to find more info about this, so please share it if you find it.

 

The short answer to the original post, yes you should be able to cultivate that morph into a colony. It may slightly change intensity or pattern though depending on how different the lighting is if moved away from the original location. My Radioactive Dragon Eyes threw red sports resembling less intense Eagle Eyes, and the frags have grown and kept the new coloring and would never pass for RDEs.

 

Jon

[jeremai]

Ok, just an interjection - remember, folks, it is not the zoanthid that is changing color, it is the zooxanthellae it hosts. You're focusing on the genetics of the wrong organism.

 

If you would like to replicate a particular strain, I believe it would be more beneficial to concentrate on the zooxanthellae, and not the zoanthid, although I think either method will prove futile. Let them grow, and be pleasantly surprised with the result.

[nUgZ]

No offense to anyone here at N-R, but you might get more scientific answers to this question if it were posted at RC. Great ideas though everyone.

[jeremai]

Hey nUgZ, check out the Advanced Topics forum sometime.

[shao-lin nano]

Why are we comparing flowers to corals...that's like apples to oranges.

 

Unless corals are similar to flowers?

 

From experience, I've had zoas change color several times while in the same tank, location, lighting. I have a section in my tank of different color morphs of zoos and the new zoos are same in color to the colony they belong to and there's no mixing of color or new colors...just small changes in hue.

 

This is from my tank:

[Otter]

Ok, just an interjection - remember, folks, it is not the zoanthid that is changing color, it is the zooxanthellae it hosts. You're focusing on the genetics of the wrong organism.

 

If you would like to replicate a particular strain, I believe it would be more beneficial to concentrate on the zooxanthellae, and not the zoanthid, although I think either method will prove futile. Let them grow, and be pleasantly surprised with the result.

 

Definately! But the same ideas apply whether you're talking about the zoa or the zoo: there are patterns of behavior/reproduction that result in the expression of specific colors. To use Jon's term "sport," why do some sports appear within the middle of a cluster of otherwise homogenous organisms? And how can these be cultivated?

 

 

Why are we comparing flowers to corals...that's like apples to oranges.

 

Unless corals are similar to flowers?

 

Just the ideas of propagation for traits. Flowers can be cultivated over time to get certain results, and if you're darned lucky these results are self-replicating and can be considered a new genetic line. In theory, seems like the same strategies can be applied to cultivating a morph/sport in corals IF the sport is strong enough and IF the color in the sport is true (genetic) and not just based on environment.

[jeremai]

Just the ideas of propagation for traits. Flowers can be cultivated over time to get certain results, and if you're darned lucky these results are self-replicating and can be considered a new genetic line. In theory, seems like the same strategies can be applied to cultivating a morph/sport in corals IF the sport is strong enough and IF the color in the sport is true (genetic) and not just based on environment.

There is the confusion - flowers are a single organism, with a single set of genetics. The common thinking now is that many corals can host many different species or strains of zooxanthellae, and can eject them and acquire new sets at will. Corals and zooxanthellae evolved seperately, and are not connected any deeper than the symbiosis. Who knows why the algae change color? It's luck of the draw, and it's damned hard to cultivate strains without having a clue as to why the colors shift.

 

But hey, give it five or ten years; we'll know soon enough.

[The Propagator]

Actualy flowers and coral are highly comparible organisms.

 

A coral is basicly a plant when you look at it in simple form.

They both rely on sunlight. Chlorophil and zooxanthalea are as close as it get as far a similarity in an aquatic organism and a land dwelling organism.

 

 

Kelvin and wattage will be your biggest foes with trying to keep corals the same color they were when you got them. Water quality will be your next biggest.

Nitrates, phosphates, and salenity will also play a role but lighting is the biggest. WIht zoanthids food is not realy a variable because they do not need to be fed. They get 99.9 % of thier food from the "light exhange"

In thier zooxanthalea.

 

When ever I want to a coral to change color in my tank I simply move it.

Seriously. ESPECIALY Zoo's. Coral on the top of my reef need only be moved to the sand bed for a few months to change colors.

That shifts the amount of light, and even the kelvin they recieve through light refraction in the water colum to the sand bed as aposed to what it is near the surface. The shift in kelvin and strength will change the color of the coral on its own.

 

Thats why you always ask what kelvin and wattage a certain coral your interested in is growing under before you buy it.

Its not just a question of will it liv eunder your lighting its will it keep the same color.

[Otter]

Thought I'd post a status report on the zoo morph I've been trying to cultivate.

 

 

The image washes out the colors a bit (old old OLD camera) - those are true reds and blues. These guys are from a fast-growing parent colony and have now been sitting stable on that rock for about six weeks, which means I'm crossing my fingers for growth any day now.

 

And double-crossing to see if the new polyps look like these guys!

[The Propagator]

Looking good otter ! I like them alot !

 

 

BTW since I completely missed the comment about Rotten Crotch.com

( reef central) having more people with superior intilect:

 

 

Zoanthid coral:

A member of the phylum Cnidaria, zoanthid coral is a colonial anemone closely related to single anemones. Zoanthid coral, including members from the species Palythoa and Zoanthus, have some characteristics we associate with plants and some with animals. They grow in the ocean as a group, permanently attach to reefs, feed like anemones, and propagate like coral.

 

Cnidarians are radially symmetric, which means they are shaped like a series of cylinders that could be rotated without being able to determine which side is the "front." Zoanthid coral grows in a colony, which means a bottom mat connects many tubules. Each tubule, called a stolon, resembles a single anemone. A top section has a ring of short tentacles surrounding its central mouth. This top is held up by an elongated column of tissue like the stalk of a mushroom, and this in turn connects to the collective mat.

 

Colonies can be made up of dozens of such stolons, each 1 - 1.5 inches (2.5 - 3.8 cm), to form carpets on or around reefs. Zoanthid coral prefer to grown on pieces of broken off coral that collect in valleys on tidepools or the ocean floor, but they can also survive on sand and rocks. Zoanthid coral grows in seemingly disparate ways. Some stolons are male and female, and release sperm and eggs to get fertilized and grow into a whole new colony. However, an existing colony can also propagate by branching off new polyps, like coral, that start from the carpet and grow upwards.

 

Zoanthid coral, since it can't perambulate (move around), feeds off nutrients that drift through the current, called detritus. Detritus are miniature pieces of food other creatures don't even notice, like bits of algae, plankton, or waste. Other nutrients are extracted from photosynthetic algae that live on zoanthid coral, called zooxanthellae. However, zoanthid coral are also equipped with poisonous toxins that can sting other creatures from the tips of their tentacles. This is solely for protection, not to paralyze animals for food.

 

Medical researchers are interested in zoanthid coral because it has symbiotic relationships with animals and plants, like algae and crabs, yet maintain production of toxic chemicals. Although the toxins are poisonous to the nervous system, they might be able to benefit humans against disease.

 

 

 

 

 

( I highlighted one section about them releasing sperm bnecause I just know when every on eread the post above by John they whent "what! that guys nuts!". But he is absolutly correct.

They have just never done so in captivity.)

 

 

NOW..... Mr fancy pants....( NugZ).....Does Rotten Crotch.com still look like the place to be?

 

 

 

Before any one finds out where what I just posted came from....

YES I did !!!! I should work at Kinko's baby !!! Yeah !!!

[nUgZ]

As I said in my earlier post Propagator, "no offense to anyone here at N-R",but the sheer number of people that peruse R-C compared to here is massive. Nano-Reef.com is my homepage and I love every bit of it. The simple fact of more people looking means more valuable input. I think everyone is reading the original sentence with the wrong emphasis. "No offense to anyone here at N-R, but you might get MORE scientific answers to this question if it were posted at RC. My emphasis was on the amount of answers, not the quality of said answers. There are many very educated and extremely helpful people here. That's why this is where I am most of the time.

[The Propagator]

I was just playfully taunting you a little thats all

 

BTW though you do realize that over 40 percent of the listed members on RC's web site are no longer valid user or active users right?

When they "move on" a person they dont remove them from thier members list. SOit just keeps growing and growing.

Now take that 40 percent divide it by 3 and thats probably how many

Users on RC have an alias as well.

 

Numbers are very diceptive over there.

 

They still get more traffic, but its more personal over here I think.

People tend to help eachother more here.

 

Adin is no where near as qucick withthe bann buttom as the mods on Rc either.

They will ban you for life for simply posting in the wrong forum.

( they have banned me twice! once for asking why we had top pay to use the search button, and once for aksing how much a sponsor ship was. The Mods and some of the people there have a little click. They think its cute to ban whom every they want for what ever they want.

I set up a new account thier under a new name just to taunt them !! )

LOL!

[brshriver]

Aren't some of a zoa's color from pigments that protect it from ultrviolet light as well? I thought that these pigments were responsible for the brighter colors and browner colors result from zooanthelae?