Dave ESPI Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 OMG ! you mena Magnesium is important? that must be why my Ca test sucks ass and I can't controll my PH and Alkalinity fluctuations...... Magnesium plays a vitally important role in the buffering process as a storage place for carbonate. Magnesium carbonate is fairly soluable, so the carbonate is readily available to neutralize excess acids. But, if magnesium is deficient, the carbonate may bond to calcium instead, depleting available calcium levels and reducing alkalinity since calcium carbonate is not soluable at normal tank THUS by rendering the calcium which WAS bio available to the corals for metabolic activities, is now rendered nearly useless. Test kits still show a reading of Ca, even though may be elevated and in acceptable ranges for a while, consistantly drops in concentrate of USEABLE ions in a seawater solution will proceed to pull down the Alkalinity and with it, PH drops. It is important to appreciate that the activity of some agrochemicals is affected by the presence of Calcium, Magnesium and Bicarbonate ions associated with hard and brackish water. Whilst the pH may also be high it is not enough to just acidify the solution and many acids such as Proprionic acid reduce the pH but do not isolate these unwanted ions. As a result they are less effective as water treatment chemicals. Many researchers have established that the potential activity of Glycogens (an enzyme that produces glucose) is reduced in the presence of valence shell bonded Calcium ions. Studies showed that where antagonistic Calcium ions were present, was only 16% efficient from its theoretical 100%. As the Calcium ions were immobilised, or the bonds broken by acidic action of Magnesium, the potential activity returned. Only certain acids were capable of immobilising the unwanted ions. One of the best performing acids, Microporous magnesium aluminophosphate. Its a bonding and breaking thing through an acid reduction process that will release ions, AND bond others. TROPIC MARIN Salt is high in Aluminum..... So what ??? ... this isn't a bad thing. Phosphates like to bond with Aluminum and can be readily oxidized with Ozone, or. OMGAWZ ! pizah ! Phosphates can be removed when they bond this way in a protien skimmer and precipitated with Kalkwasser or even Ca suplements. To facilitate the removal of phosphates by re bonding, and being thusly removed in your skimate, OR through waterchanges, you also free up the Magnesium to work on the CA and Alkalinity and provide stability. Strontnium and Boron is linked in this too, but that is an entire different subject. and fer those of less than 'spert leves who are completely lost... Tl: Dr ..... Broken down in layman terms QUOTED FROM ESV WEBSITE Through the chemical process known as "ion-pairing", magnesium ion concentration influences the saturation point for calcium corbonate in solution. In general, the further the magnesium concentration drops from natural seawater levels (1350 ppm), the more difficult it becomes to maintain adequate levels of both calcium and alkalinity. Magnesium also plays an important role in stabilizing pH by interacting with the buffer system of seawater. B-Ionic Magnesium is an easy to use one component liquid supplement which, when used with B-Ionic Calcium Buffer or kalkwasser, will not disrupt the ionic balance of closed marine aquaria. B-Ionic Magnesium does not contain nitrates, phosphates, organics, or chelating agents. B-Ionic Magnesium contains 60,000 ppm magnesium, and one mL will raise one gallon of aquarium water by 15 ppm. there are a bunch of kinds of magnesium. >1. Magnesium Chloride (mag-NEE-zhum KLOR-ide)‡† 2. Magnesium Citrate # (mag-NEE-zhum SIH-trayt)‡ 3. Magnesium Gluceptate (mag-NEE-zhum gloo-SEP-tate)* 4. Magnesium Gluconate (mag-NEE-zhum GLOO-ko-nate)‡ >5. Magnesium Hydroxide # †† (mag-NEE-zhum hye-DROX-ide)‡ 6. Magnesium Lactate (mag-NEE-zhum LAK-tate)† >7. Magnesium Oxide # (mag-NEE-zhum OX-ide)‡ 8. Magnesium Pidolate (mag-NEE-zhum PID-o-late)* >9. Magnesium Sulfate # ** (mag-NEE-zhum SUL-fate)‡ ‡ Generic name product may be available in the U.S. § Generic name product may be available in Canada * Not commercially available in the U.S. † Not commercially available in Canada # See Laxatives (Oral) for laxative use of magnesium citrate, magnesium hydroxide, magnesium oxide, and magnesium sulfate. ** See Magnesium Sulfate (Systemic) for use in seizures and uterine tetany. †† See Antacids (Oral) for antacid use of magnesium hydroxide and magnesium oxide. While SOME are used for Human heath reasons, > denotes usefullness in REEFS at current understandings of Magnesium. FOR MORE READING : Blane Purn http://www.thesea.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1462 Dr. Ron befuddles the 'tards in this one (so LOLERSKATERS don't READ.. you wil drool to much.) http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-02/rs/f...ature/index.htm ENC labs overview of other elements that are linked. http://www.enclabs.com/details.html This is your brain. :| This is your brain on reef. This is you brain after ESPI. :woot: OR ??? HTH. Link to comment
freakaccident Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 So dump some Milk of Magnesia in there and you are set! Doesn't Pepto Bismol have magnesium in it too? Link to comment
tinyreef Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 i'm not sure if milk of magnesia has anything else in solution with it. also you have to be able to calculate the dosage per unit used. i would just go with epsom salts (same thing) and mix up with known source water instead. this is if you're even considering calculating the dosages and etc. (which can be dicey imo). easier to just get esv's or kent's supplement imo. Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 lol tiny, ACTUALY, the sulfate IS a good laxative for the fish if they have a roughage intestinal block. I've used it ina hospital tank with a tang and a lionfish who swalloved a very bonyfish and was having...... ummmm Issues Link to comment
Crakeur Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 how the hell did you know either fish had, as you put it, ummm issues? Were they grabbing their bellies with their fins and moaning in pain? Link to comment
Donna Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 hey Dave...remember I repair endoscopes for a living so I can set ya up if you ever need to give your fish a colonoscopy! On a more serious note...thanks for the great read..and finish the book DAMN IT!! Link to comment
cjm033 Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 good thread ave very informative ill have to look out for that stuff.Chris Link to comment
bgoode Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 After reading this, I realized I needed to get magnesium. I got ESV Mg, but the problem is, I can't find a test kit for it. I have one on backorder through Marine Depot, but it'll be 2 weeks. Without the test kit, I don't know what my Mg levels are, but I am having trouble rasing alk and Ca. Should I dose the Mg even though I don't know how high I need to raise it? What would happen if I overdosed? Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted March 15, 2003 Author Share Posted March 15, 2003 good question. ??? you have stumped Teh Espinator. I will look through some stuff later today and come up with an answer. Ooer- Perhaps "Sir Slapnuts" can shed some of his wisdom on this. SJP? For the test kit, Salifert as well as Lamotte make fairly reliable ones. Link to comment
LiQuiD Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 This is one of the reasons why I use Seachem's Reef Complete. It is not only just calcium but contains the proper amounts of Magnesium as well. So instead of dosing twice, the "Reef Complete" gives me both the Calcium and the Magnesium, screw everything else, go with the Seachem calcium additives. As quoted from the bottle "Reef Complete also includes magnesium and strontium in amounts proportionate to typical utilization ratios (100:5:0.1, Ca:Mg:Sr). This allows one to maintain these two important elements while maintaining calcium." Seachem has known this for years and are some of the best additives I have ever used. Link to comment
bgoode Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 So according to these ratios, If I dosed Mg at 20% of my Ca dose, I shouldn't have any problems overdosing it? Link to comment
LiQuiD Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 I don't think you will overdose but it is a little on the high side. Don't forget your cabonates, don't just concentrate on your Ca and Mg, keep an eye on your PH throughout your increases in Ca and Mg and use a buffer as needed. Link to comment
Twins Guy Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 bgoode your math is broke! if you were going to dose magnesium separate from calcium then the utilization ratio of 5:100 repsectively would make for a decent dosing recipe. that's 5% not 20%. the 20 from 100/5 would tell you how many times more calcium to dose. obviously this isn't that important, nor are you to be scalded. if you want to play the balancing, 3 (+)additives game (calcium, magnesium, carbonate) then more power to ya! ~tg Link to comment
apophis924 Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 Hey Liquid do you mean reef complete or Reef advantage Calcium by seachem. I use the reef advantage calcium and it has the Mg and Stro also. Never tired the reef complete is it a buffer or a supplement. Link to comment
bgoode Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 My bad. My brains not completely here being in the middle of finals and all. Thanks for the correction. I have been dosing B-ionic 1&2 and having troubles rasing both Ca and alk, so thats how I figured I needed Mg as well. Link to comment
LiQuiD Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 apophis924, Reef Complete was what I meant. Reef Advantage Calcium is very similar and good, I just prefer the Reef Complete that I have been using with good results. Link to comment
Xwhite Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 You shouldn't dose any supplement unless you know what you're trying to accomplish. I would say wait until you have a Mg test kit before going hog wild with magnesium supplements. John Link to comment
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