The other side of bio-wheels (long, very long)...

[printerdown01]

This topic has come up time and time again. For some reason people don't get the other side of the story from other advice givers. I have found that a lot of the advice given regarding bio-wheels is dished out by a) people who have not used them and littered with misunderstandings (*Thank you tiny and Chvy for yelling at me and pointing out that I too had laced my post with mistakes LOL –‘twas not intentional). Since this has appeared several times on this board in the past week or so, I figured that I would post this. This is NOT meant to contradict and negate other’s opinions. Some time ago someone posted a very sound and helpful piece that took the opposite stance on bio-wheels that I take. Thus, I would offer both my and their opinion to people (I can no longer find my post nor the other post I thought was particularly helpful that took the opposing view). This post was created to tell the other side of the story that people seem to be recently overlooking. People do not use wet-dry systems because they want algae nor because they are misinformed. There are many ways of doing things, this is one:

 

So here is the skinny:

 

The thing is wet-dry systems (like bio-wheels) create aerobic zones. Aerobic bacteria live in the zones and are EXTREAMLY good at converting ammonia into *nitrites and then into *nitrates -some argue too good (and this is where the controversy begins; I will not go into detail on the other side of the argument, as this post is long enough as is!). I've heard bio-wheels, bio-balls, and wet-drys called many things, including live rock on crack (due to their ability to facilitate the nitrogen cycle) and nitrate factories. I think the latter is a fair and accurate description. However, I don't think this is problematic.

 

Like factories they need raw material to work with: ammonia. So let's start here. Ammonia is toxic to fish (and ironically they are the biggest producers of it in a closed system). The bio-wheel will convert this ammonia to nitrite, which is then converted to nitrate. Nitrate is the fuel required to fuel alga growth. There in lies the major fear that most aquarists have of the bio-wheel. However, for some reason few people seem to realize that nitrate is also the main source of food for your corals! Our corals need light (along with other nutrients) to increase the health and growth rate of the zooxanthellae alga growing within you corals. That alga spp requires nitrites to grow and reproduce. In fact studies show that even in high *nitrate conditions everything continues to be fairly healthy. There was only one problem; the researchers could not supply enough calcium to support healthy growth of the corals which resulted in weak skeleton structures–they were growing THAT fast!

 

On the other hand an aquarium with high ammonia levels can crash! Now, I am not suggesting that we purposely keep our *nitrates high and grow lots of algae in order to have happy corals. However, I do not understand the massive panic stricken fear that runs though seemingly every aquarist’s mind when they hear high nitrates. If you choked out your tanks ability to go though the nitrogen cycle (*I am talking about immediately removing the wet-dry system when you notice high nitrates), you would be sitting there with a tank full of dead fish, thanks to the high level of ammonia you would have had as a result. Now, is a bio-wheel necessary? NO. Your LR and LS can most certainly house enough bacteria to efficiently filter your tank! However, in the unlikely event you ever have a massive ammonia spike for whatever reason (like a massive over feeding by a helpful friend while you are on vacation) it will help protect your tank from crashing (*it should by no means be considered a safe guard or solution!). But in this case apparently most aquarists would probably see the massive algae bloom and yank his/her bio-wheel to “cut down on the nitrates.” When the bio-wheel was actually responsible for saving the health of his/her tank. I think it is unfortunate when things get a bad rap in the hobby because they produce the visible results. So many people blame their hermit crabs, their bristle worms, and their nass snails for the death of the animals in the tank, when they are not really the cause but are there as a result. Your bio-wheel will not magically create nitrates. It will only convert the available ammonia into nitrates. And even they are not efficient enough to convert all of it. But we should let nature do its thing naturally right? I totally agree. The problem is that you are only showing a portion of the ocean! We do not show the area between the island and the reef that is covered in algae, nor the vast open sand communities, nor the beaches and marshes. Beaches and marshes are aerobic zones, exactly what you wet-dry is simulating! Nature does create massive aerobic zones near coral reef; barrier reefs, fringing reefs, and atolls are ALL found surrounding or being surrounded (atolls) by beaches! We are just beginning to learn about the importance of swamps and marshes in the marine environment. As it turns out they are actually more efficient at producing 02 for the environment than the rainforests! –That is incredible!! We used to fill them in and create extensions for parks, hotels, and buildings. When we did the local marine life took a major dive! Make no mistake these zones are VERY important to nature. If we are willing to create refugiums to simulate the regions between the beach and the reefs, and cryptic zones for more added filtration, why do we shun aerobic zones? Answer: because they are the bristle worm. They are the last step before the production of algae. They do not create algae by themselves; they only clear your tank of ammonia faster than your LR and LS would. Your tank has a limited supply of ammonia, it will not produce more just because you bio-wheel gets rid of it faster. Now want to save your tank from algae and ammonia spikes? Don’t over feed and don’t over stock! And that is good advice for any tank.

 

Couple of notes however: 1) If you have a surface skimmer this does NOT apply to you. Do NOT run a surface skimmer and a bio-wheel! And when push comes to shove between those yank the wheel. Your skimmer is a much more useful and beneficial piece of equipment! I do not know why but when they are both running you get a massive amount of nitrates!! Do NOT do this! 2) I am considering pulling my bio-wheel after over a year and a half use. Why? Just to see what happens. *I have never had a problem with nitrates in my tank, and my tank is approaching the 2-year mark. I will keep everyone informed. I only have one fish so I am certainly not worried about an ammonia spike in my 12 gallon.

 

************************************************

Ok, very sorry for the confusion. There were 2 or 3 instances in which I switched the words nitrates and nitrites, and several places where I used the phrase ‘trates to refer to nitrates (which I guess could also cause confusion). Those corrections and all additional commentary have been marked with a * preceding the correction or addition. It had no barring on the overall message of the post, BUT did make it inaccurate and confusing to read! I apologize as I wrote this to clear up confusion, and instead I created it, especially for those who do not fully understand (or are not comfortable with) the nitrogen cycle. Thank you Tiny and Chvy for pointing this out. If there are any further problems LET ME KNOW. –Seriously! I am always open to criticism (the only thing I hold fast to is the idea that SPS and clams can be kept under PC -I am a bit touchy with this one). Please ignore my post after Chvy’s I was writing a rebuttal when I re-read my post to see what the hell you guys were talking about… I stopped practically mid thought, to rectify the situation. Tiny please ignore your PM (for anyone reading this, don’t worry, I didn’t send him a “nasty letter” I was however VERY curious as to what the hell he was so ####ed about –which I have now figured out). My mistakes really weren’t that appalling tough!! It is not as if I dished out terrible advice!! LOL.

[glazer]

Yo p-man,

Not sure, maybe you were referring to me when you said "somebody took the opposite stance" that you did on bio-wheels? Well, I'm guessing anyway since I uh, did, well sort of..lol

 

I'm not going to debate/argue/fight or WHATEVER about bio-wheels... personally I could care less about them and whether or not people use them. Buuuuuut, what I DO want to find out about is this take you have on the whole nitrogen cycle. You stated before and are now again... that ammonia is broken down into nitrates and THEN nitrites.... THIS JUST AIN'T SO! I was never taught that, I have never read that, I have never HEARD anyone say that other than you.... I want to see where you are getting this information. I also want to see where you read/ who you heard from/what makes you think that nitrites are NOT toxic... they are extremely toxic to marine life...not to the degree ammonia is but still deadly. Now NITRATES on the other hand are not really toxic.....but extremely elevated levels can irritate most marine animals.

I hope you don't get bent out of shape over what I'm saying because as I said, I don't want to fight... I want to learn. You have a take/stance on the nitrogen cycle that is new to me, point me in the direction I need to go to get the information YOU have on it.

 

EDIT: BTW, the lost thread you spoke of.... This one?

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...=&threadid=7757

EDIT #2: Well since I'm middle-aged man and question my OWN sanity at times I wanted to make sure I hadn't lost my mind...

Off the first page of a Google search.... I read about four or five more links/pages so assumed since they all said the same thing the next 5000 would as well.... I have no idea who Dennis Peters is, he just put it quite simply... so I offer this, The Nitrogen Cycle.

[chvynva916]

I'm with Glazer. In general, I hope no newbies read this post and take this information seriously. For someone sounding like such an authority, you really wrote some seriously bad stuff. I won't debate it point by point, but in general you're kind of off in a lot of your ideas.

[newreefers]

I run the emperior 400 with 2 bio wheels, and a remora skimmer. they both run 24/7. I'm not going to yank my wheels. I have had this set up for 6 years and my tank readings are stable ammonia 0 trites 0 and trates 0. My water is absolutely clear and haven't lost any life. I hope people read beyond the first post, and don't start pulling bio wheels all over the place.

[printerdown01]

Ouch, I honestly did not mean to type that nitrates became nitrites... It is obviously a mistake... As for nitrates not being toxic, that is pretty common knowledge... Look there have been studies done with nitrate levels at 40ppm -that is REALLY high- (D. Stuber) back in 1980! This is OLD info...

 

**oh ######... just re-read my post... I had for some reason switched nitrates and nitrites around more than once (AND did so on another post -I wonder if I do this frequently!?!?! -I will keep an eye out from now on THATS for sure)... Thank both of you for bringing it to my attenion! It should be correct now! I was writting this very quickly, as I do most posts on here, and I do not re-read what I have written. The info will be rectified, and I will note the fact that the text has been altered, and readjusted for correctness...

 

Also no glazer that wasn't the lost post. It was a lengthy and well written post, argued VERY well, against the use of wet-dry systems, and for the berlin method. Not you AT ALL.

 

Chvy & Glazer, feel free to send me a PM if you still believe my post to be incorrect!! PLEASE! I do not want to dish out the wrong info, any more than anyone else on here! Ironically the whole reason that I wrote this was to clear up confusion, and in my haste I created it... -Thanks! P.S. Next time just send me a PM; I would have corrected the errors a lot earlier! Sheesh, I'm glad I went back just to see how the thread was doing, as I really had no intention of revisiting this post! And I hope newbies DO read this post; I don't like it when people only get to see one side of the coin in any situation, and I usually go out of my way to show the opposing view in the vast majority of my opinions!

[Dave ESPI]

Dave ESPI: Nitrate issues? LOL

printerdown01: according to stuber....

"The nitrate level in reef aquariums should be less than 1ppm as nitrate-nitrogen ideally, but need not be maintained so low. In fact elevated nitrate levesl as high as 10 ppm nitrate-nitrogen (approximately = 40 ppm nitrate ion) may encourage more rapid growth of both soft and stony corals"

printerdown01: -The reef aquarium

Dave ESPI: yeah

Dave ESPI: I agree. 10 ppm as an upper thresh hold is what I run my tanks at depending on the inhabetants and what I want to grow.

BUT....... Some corals will react very badly to high nitrates in a system.

printerdown01: according to stuber it is used by zoxanthalae

printerdown01: am i missing something?

Dave ESPI: nitrates are TOXIC in high concentrations to corals that are not acclimated to higher concentrations of nitrogenious compounds. Those that start out in low or negligble NO3, can adapt or die.

printerdown01: i havn't heard that -i'll take you word for it tough!

Dave ESPI: LOL figures I was involved in the "Other" thread

Dave ESPI: heheh

printerdown01: ?

Dave ESPI: there is a LOT that is not known and a lot to be learned... the word is still out on my "Official opinion" on Bio Wheels. If the system runs well with it, use it. Its all about use and recycling of nutrients. I've had tanks CRASH because of a loack of nitrates and alga gone sexual.

printerdown01: yeah.

Dave ESPI: I didn't read yer post before it was edited, but what you say seems ok to me now.

ttyl.

printerdown01: Thnx ttyl

[LEEWINK]

christ printerdown, thats monster that text insert.

 

Just buzzing through as you do, its late now. 03:15 a.m.

 

I'll try to read when i'm more awake !!!!

 

digi-cam is coming soon, so yo'all watch out, i'll be zapping some pics across to ya. Its a coolpix 5000 5m.p. I'm resetting soon here, so i'll create a gallery like 'ross' did there.

 

All in good time.

 

waffling now, night chaps (esses)

 

cheers,

 

lee

 

:) :) :)

[spoondigity]

Can you ever really generalize that bio wheels/balls are good or bad? I think there are two discussions happening here that might be better seperated out. The first being the discussion of whether these items used are good or bad. I mean, really I would think it is very dependent on the rest of the tank setup. The second idea in discussion seems to be 'what levels of nitrates are good/bad for a tank?'. If you state that some higher levels of nitrate are good for some tanks, well that doesn't really mean that bio items are good to have in every tank. And on the opposite side, if you state that low nitrate levels are better, that doesn't mean every tank setup is better off without bio items. I am not directing this toward any statements in this thread directly, but just considering the overall ideas being explored.

[glazer]

spoon,

In a word, NO... as they are both if you will. You have to decide where and when to use them. In my opinion, and that is just what it is MY opinion bio-wheels are not really needed on reef tanks that contain bio loads of reasonable quantity... Bio-wheels have been around for a long, long time before anyone EVER thought to use them on aquariums. They have been in place in waste processing plants for eons. They are extremely efficient in what they do... that being breaking down ammonia into nitrites and then into nitrates... BUT, they stop there, that's it no more. The wheel does not provide the proper enviroment for the bacteria responsible for breaking down nitrates. So the term "nitrate-factory" was coined and the public ran with it putting their own little twists on it. As in any factory/manufacturing facility you cannot produce more finished product than you have the materials for.... Bio-wheels cannot and DO NOT produce more nitrates than would be produced in your tank with any other form of filtration.... this is not argueable or negotiable, though some seem to think this is the case.

There is one more step to total bio-filtration... the breaking down of nitrates, where as the bio-wheel lacks this final step the live rock and perhaps your sandbed (conditons need to be met for that to occur) have this capability. Like the bio-wheel your rock and sand is producing nitrates, again no more than they have the materials for. But since they also have the ability to go the extra step if you will, many people myself included feel that by having the bio filtering taking place in such close proximity to the bacteria needed to finish the process it is much more efficient in keeping nitrate levels lower.

As to what levels of nitrates are good or bad.... well that again is another debate. Some say and by some I mean well known respected aquatic experts less than 10 ppm, some less than 5 and others firmly believe 0. I always strive for the O reading based on the fact that unpolluted seawater has nitrate levels below detectable amounts with the hobbyist test kits that we use... so to me it only makes sense that since we are trying to duplicate our own little slice of the ocean UNDETECTABLE is the goal... Nitrates are indeed there/ being produced in our tanks, there is no way around that.... if everything functions they way it should or we would hope that it is.... the need for nitrates by whatever organisms we have is being met.

I don't think it will ever be possible to place a rock-solid label upon bio-wheels as either wonderful or evil... I think they have a place in certain tanks. For every story of the hobbyist that has removed his bio-wheel and conditions have stayed the same or greatly improved you're sure to find another that has been using them for years/months/whatever and has a beautiful healthy aquarium. I would say though... if your tank suffers chronically from elevated nitrate levels and you are using a bio-wheel try removing it and see what happens.

[printerdown01]

Although I sit on the other side of the fence what Glazer just said is 100% correct, and I couldn't have said it better. I think the over-all lesson that EVERYONE pushes is that if it works for your system use it. If it isn't working scrap it! Every tank has a different "personality." Some people can keep SPS on 2x28, some even less, while other tanks can't keep them without much higher lighting... This will continue to be true until we understang a LOT more about the subjects we are attempting to keep as well as the environment we are trying to emulate.

[reefan]

I am starting a 2.5 and I have a biowheel mini on it. This is my experiment with them. Once I have it cycled I'll post how it works out.

JJ

BTW Great info on both sides of the debate.

[tgrupert]

one day printer down woke up and said "i would like to have the same stupid argument that we had 100000000000000000 other times, only this time I will post so much only people with absolutly no life will be able to stand reading it and I will know I am automaticaly better than them."

 

 

well ha ha, I beat you. I didn't read your post, and I already know I agree with you because we have talk about this with each other more frequently than I move my bowels.

 

BTW doctor ron desided it's not cool to say "nitrate factory" anymore. now we are supposed to say "nitrate sweatshop" or "ferris wheel of rapid nitrogenous death"