Ich Getting Worse....

[Nosferatu]

My black clown got ick about 5 or 6 days ago. It happened when I transfered him and my rock, sand, water, etc to a new 20g tank. He just seems to be getting worse and worse and I'm really starting to worry. He's had the occasional short bout before, but he always gets over it quickly. This one doesn't seem to be passing. Tonight he is breathing so heavily that I'm not sure he's going to make it through the night. I love the little guy, does anyone have any suggestions what might be stressing him?

 

Parameters are all good, the only thing is the new tank, but because I transfered it all over everything has been pretty stable. I had a barebottom for a part of it until today which I covered with some sand because the guy at my LFS said maybe seeing himself and everything reflected off the bottom was stressing him and confusing him. I hope that works, but I really am not sure. Please, any help is appreciated. Poor little Shamu, I don't know what to do.

[Six]

are you getting any reading on your water tests? any nitrate? ammonia? how about your pH? Alkalinity? Specific gravity? Temperature?

 

this type of infestation is almost always due to stress. if the move was stressful, which it always is, the fish can get sick. depending on the animal's immune system it may get worse or bounce back.

 

if you are getting good readings, which i would really be interested in seeing exactly what they read, than it could be an oxygen problem, or something simple such as that. usually in a move its a temperature shock that triggers the cysts to form.

 

also, if you arent certain, check your alkalinity (KH). if that is not high enough your pH could be falling through the floor at night which you may not notice and which is reallllllly stressful an fish or inverts.

 

otherwise til wefigure it out, i would raise the temp to at least 80, airate the water really well (lots of surface aggitation), no children or animals near the tank, no hands in the tank (i dunno why but many people chase their animals out of hiding to look at them. dont do that. ), and feed frozen foods and or pellets/flakes soaked ina vitamin supplement.

 

a fish can fight anything with a healthy immune system.

[Nosferatu]

Thanks for the tips. My LFS does free testing and they said that everything was fine with the exception of my pH which was 8.1, but that wasn't a huge problem and they said just to watch it. My test kit, which isn't quite as accurate, had nitrates near 0.1, ammonia and nitrites around 0, and the pH between 8 and 8.2. SG I think they said was 1.024 using their refractometer which I assume is better than my floater He said the alkalinity was fine, but I don't have a test for it so I don't know what the numbers are. Temp is kept at 80 due to my new heater, so I guess that works well

There is plenty of surface agitation from both the HOB output and the powerhead near the surface.

I'm guessing it was the move and then he's just not getting better fast as usual. I feed him cyclopeeze flakes soaked in garlic everyday.

I hope he gets better, I'm just stumped as far as what to do. Thanks for the help.

[Six]

i think youre doing about all you can do. keep it up, the fish should get better soon enough.

 

a pH of 8.1 is fine as long as it isnt swinging really low at night. a consistant pH is much more important that a reading exactly at "8.2".

 

gl

[BelowH2O]

If the fish doesn't look better soon there is more you can do, and acting sooner than later will be beneficial. I suggest looking into either hyposalinity or a mild copper treatment along with a quarantine.

 

Try a google search for "Hyposalinity, Albert Thiel" There is a good article he wrote on the subject of ich. Copper treatments are also effective if you have a quarantine area (a five gallon bucket and an airstone or powerhead works well).

[BelowH2O]

Okay, sorry for the google search idea, Dr. Thiel's articles are now part of a database you have be a member to access.

 

Check out this article compiled by Trevor Jones, it discusses ich and the various treatments. Also, goes in depth about hyposalinity.

 

Pets Forum, Trevor Jones, ich info.

[Samoyed]

Okay, sorry for the google search idea, Dr. Thiel's articles are now part of a database you have be a member to access.

 

Check out this article compiled by Trevor Jones, it discusses ich and the various treatments. Also, goes in depth about hyposalinity.

 

Pets Forum, Trevor Jones, ich info.

 

 

that fish has LOTS OF ICH!!!....did you try a FW dip?

[Six]

does the good doctor go over the downsides of hyposalinity and copper treatments?

 

both of these treatments are as far from a normal treatment as possible. there are times and places for such treatments, such as when fish are newly caught and still in the distributor's warehouse. a fish that has been in captivity for a while should not need any thing so extreme. Relying on chemicals and highly stressful methodologies will not give you the results you expect.

 

These methodologies are "quick fixes" that don't treat the cause, they superficially fix the effect. if your tank is 70 degrees , the fish thus gets sick, and youre going to move the fish to QT and dose copper, thats a million times more stress than is needed. why on earth do that when all you would need to do is fix the temperature (or whatever else is CAUSING the problem?).

 

sorry, but recommending 'quick fixes' isnt going to help any aquarist learn and understand that there are reasons their fish get sick and there are ways to maintain healthier environments.

 

imagine the stress a fish is under when it is sick. imagine throwing the fish into a totally unnatural specific gravity, one that the animal is never ever subjected to in the wild (where almost all fish are from and or have very close roots to if they are captive raised). the osmotic stress on the organs alone could cause irrepairable damage and should be avoided at all costs.

 

copper is worse. it strips out the oxygen and puts a harsh chemical into the gills and breathing structure of the fish. why on earth do that to a fish if you dont need to?

 

IMO there are almost never any situations where an aquarists needs to use either of those treatments. i would rather spend the 30 minutes typing the reason the fish is getting sick than to simply state that these stressful treatments will work in 1/4 of the time.

 

just remember, you get what you put in. effort on your part will maintain a healthier fish and system. skipping steps and taking short cuts will only hurt the fish and your ability to maintain a system long term.

 

sorry to be a bummer, but there is more responsibility to keeping fish than just dumping them into harsh situations or polluting thier environments with unneeded chemicals and drugs. we can do better.

[Nosferatu]

Thanks for the info guys. I really don't have the money or time for a QT tank that would essentially be as big as the only main, so all that is out of the question anyway Six

 

On the up side, he seems to be getting better. The ich spots, while still fairly numerous, have no become the concise white balls I usually see and not what they were before. His coloring has come back (his white stripes were almost pink in some parts, poor guy) and his fins are now up and not pressed flat. Seems he is on the road to recovery and I'm so happy about that. He is by far my favorite little fish.

 

Thanks again.

 

Oh, and I had given him a couple FW baths. I decided to stop stressing him out for a bit and it seems that is working better than the baths were.

[BelowH2O]

Didn't mean to touch a nerve, and I hope you don't think I'm recommending "quick fixes". I put the info there for Nosferatu to decide what to do.

 

Neither of us have seen the fish, nor do we know the actual severity of the case. Also, I never recommended "throwing" the fish into a bucket with a lower salinity. There are careful and safe methods to this treatment. If followed correctly they are successful more than 1/4 of the time.

 

Another fact that I've encountered with the treatment of ich, is if you treat the fish for ich, or get your parameters straight within your tank, the fish still needs to be quarantined. The reason for this...without a fish in the tank there is no host for the parasite, therefore it dies instead of remaining dormant until parameters are incorrect again.

 

Inproper quarantine is the cause of many failures in fishkeeping, and before you say who's "irresponsible" ask how many people actually keep quarantine tanks for their fish, or can set one up quickly for new or sick fish.

 

Don't worry Six, you didn't bum me out. I know how to treat my fish and inverts. I was just trying to give Nosferatu some further info. There is alot of methodology in this hobby and giving only one side would be limiting the potential for sucess.

 

And, Nosferatu...I don't mean to come across as abrasive, but I don't understand how you lack the time to quarantine a fish? What are you trying to rush? The number one rule of this hobby is patience.

[Six]

awesome. i wasnt trying to be an ass, its just many people think those two ways and a cleaner shrimp are the only ways to fix a crypt problem.

 

im glad to hear your side and i did not mean to say my way was the only way. i just like to get people to think about the big picture. it amazes me that many people still dont know and or realize that most of our fish are still wild caught. those that arent are inbred to achieve higher and faster sellable populations and morphs.

 

we coo.

[Nosferatu]

By lack of time I was simply perceiving his condition. He looked REALLY bad the other night, but things are improving day by day now. The other night I honestly didn't think he'd make it through the night what with his breathing and appearance. That is all I meant by the time constraints.

[Six]

do you think it could have just been fine sand stuck to her slime coat? that happens quite a bit as well.

 

gl

[Nosferatu]

No, not with the breathing problems I was seeing. That and his skin(?) was deteriorating visibly because I could see pinkish areas. Now he's doing A LOT better in all those regards. The best sign to me is that his fins are no longer pressed which is always a first indicator of a problem for me. Thanks for the help.

[somoney]

Dont know it this helps but I've had success whole tank doseing for 2 weeks with Kordon Ich-Attack 100% Organic. Others on this forum (hard/soft corals alike), have reported no adverse effects but its always scary medicating a reef tank. :/

[Adam]

Dont know it this helps but I've had success whole tank doseing for 2 weeks with Kordon Ich-Attack 100% Organic. Others on this forum (hard/soft corals alike), have reported no adverse effects but its always scary medicating a reef tank. :/

 

hey somoney... good to know I'm not the only one doing it.. actually it is about half a week since I started with Ich Attack 100% Organic... and for now I can't see any difference.. I do have Aquapod 24.. and every evening I put to the tank 18ml of Ich attack.. the same as they say on back of the bottle.. hope it will help soon..

 

My fishes are fine.. but they do have ick.. HAH I brought it from my LFS... and that was the last time when I was shooping there.. the guy in my LFS is irresponsible to sell sick fish.. wish I knew more before I bought it.. now at least I'm smarter.. oh well.. hope I can write back here in about week and say ICH is GONE !!! by using KORDON ICH ATTACk..

 

thanx

[drbegalke]

sorry to be a bummer, but there is more responsibility to keeping fish than just dumping them into harsh situations or polluting thier environments with unneeded chemicals and drugs. we can do better.

 

I hope when you get ill your doctor spends 30 minutes telling you why you got sick, to go home and re-adjust your thermostat, and refuses to treat you....

 

and I'm sure you have never taken a prescription drug, vaccine, or vitamin in your life either, right? Wouldn't want to pollute your system.

[MillerLite]

Yeah have to agree with the QT tank idea. It is my understanding that unless you QT your fish, they can and most likely will become infected again. The tank should go fishless for several weeks.

 

On a different note, is there any update with the black clown? Breathing issues when combined with symptoms of ich can be very bad news. Although fixing your tank conditions should be mandatory, breathing problems can indicate that the ich has spread to the gills and the fish has trouble breathing. Although harsh, copper and formalin (from brookynella I believe) are commonly used with much success...much greater success than simply readjusting conditions in your tank. One is immediate relief, the other something that can take much longer than the clown has time to live. Of course both involving learning more about your tank and its problems, but sometimes quick fixes are offered because time is of the essence. No one that goes to the doctor with a bacterial infection in their lungs would settle for a lecture on hygeine and taking better care of oneself. Bring on the antibiotics and then the lecture please...

 

Whats different about the fish in this case. Treat the illness and then figure out why it happened and adjust the conditions. If you do it the other way around, all you will most likely have is a dead fish...

[Nosferatu]

He got over it and is doing great now. All it took was a little careful observation and some baths in FW once in a while. He's plenty happy and very affectionate now.

[falon]

He got over it and is doing great now. All it took was a little careful observation and some baths in FW once in a while. He's plenty happy and very affectionate now.

Did you do a QT? I didn't understand if you did or not.