Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I'm slowly becoming frustrated... recently (Jan 4th) I added some Chemi-Clean (less then one full dose) to remove my cyano (I have yet to dose again, for obvious reasons), but being that I had so much, it seems to have nuked my tank... and it's been all down hill from there. Initially my Nitrates spiked through the roof.. I've been doing 20% water changes daily.. aerated the water.. not dosed anything extra.. just trying to get things stable... last I checked my Nitrates had dropped, but are still in a critical level (and eventually climb back up) while Amnonia and Nitrites remain at nill. My water changes don't seem to be helping. My two percs are on the verge of collapse, the zoos have yet to open, and the Xenia, well, look pale and un-pulsing (The rics seem as unresponsive as ever). I've lost my brittle star and a few hermits already. My tiger tail and queen conch sit at the top of the water on the glass as if they can make it to some where less toxic. While doing water changes I've been scrubbing my rocks in an effort to remove any decaying matter. I come home tonight, hoping to see things starting to turn around, but alas, it seems even more bleak then ever. Aside from the obvious "Put them in another tank" (which I do not have, and do not have the funds to implement at the moment).. what might I be over looking, or what can I attempt to do to bring things back within balance? Would it be best for me to pull all my LR, put it in heated buckets away from the main tank? That seems even more detrimental as that's a primary filter source. Should I adjust my lighting to be on a longer or shorter photo period (see below for stats)? Well shoot.. at least my bristle worms are feeding well X) Tank Specs: 25g ~40# LR 40# LS AquaClear 200 w/ foam only 1 - 55W 03 (on 8am-10pm) 2 - 55W 50/50 (on 9am-9pm) Several blue/red/left-handed hermits TigerTail Cucumber Queen Conch Two True Percs Various Zoos, a few rics, candy cane and Xenia Some macro NH4 - none NO2 - none NO3 - ~5ppm (last night - to weary to check tonight) Ca/Alk/KH/Mg - all at proper levels pH - 7.8.. I know.. low.. but I've been having trouble raising it.. every time I try to bring it up, I end up over buffering and precipitating out. Salinity - 1.025 (varified with a refractometer) Temp - 79* Frustration - 100% Wallet - $0.00 Current Emotional State - :*( I was hoping to use some money I saved up for a small vacation here in a few weeks, but if I must, I'll put it towards rescuing the tank. My gf will understand, I hope! Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Pre-nuke picture.. pardon the "low light".. the camera doesn't show it well. Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Post-nuke shot.. yes.. I know.. I have algae.. thank you.. Tiger Tail.. near upper left corner.. the orangish thing.. Conch.. the black spot in front of the floating breeder... But hell.. proof positive Chemi-Clean kills cyano I must say... Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Tank from the left.. yup.. that branch of rock has a fro.. Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Tank from the right.. the small Rio on the left isn't on.. turned out to be to much flow I think.. My two percs... and one of the hermits on the top rock.. I sware it must be gay because it loves to rearrange my entire tank.. yup, the bottom left of this shot is a Xenia cluster it has just knocked to the sand bed.. poor things... You can see the conch a bit better in this shot.. top left.. Still have a bit of cyano on the rock towards the right and in the sand.. but I don't plan to add any more Chemi-Clean until things turn around.. Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 My apt dining room.. trying to save my tank.. yup, I'm a bachelor.. is it that obvious? FW 60g center.. SW 25g right Link to comment
tinyreef Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 first thing's first. get the pH higher. i use Aquarium Pharm's Proper pH (no commish for me ). back off on the lighting a bit (lower by 2 hrs imo) and get a phosphate adsorber or Polyfilter in the hob. blow around any detritus in the tank and continuously clean out your hob to remove those potential nutrient sources. imo your tank's a little overloaded. the cuke in a young tank is really the issue with me. also the fact that you've had die-off as well. i know you said $0 but spend the $30 for a cc skimmer. the coralife is not too bad. i recently got it and was very pleasantly surprised. (a tad better than my old berlin luft imo) i think you've got a fair amount of doc's in your water so the skimmer should almost immediately start extracting crappie. i would run some carbon too. just my $0.02, good luck! Link to comment
Satchmo Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I was gonna ask if you're using tap water, but I see the empty 2.5g water jugs on the floor Is that stuff RO/DI or just spring water? Have you checked it for phosphates, silicates? Take Tiny's advice and see how it goes. And damn boy, clean your apartment! Link to comment
chvynva916 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Something sounds fishy (no pun intended). Your levels don't seem off enough to be disturbing your fish and cleanup crew that much. 7.8 is low fo pH but I don't think that would be bothering your clonws that much. I think that would affect coral growth if anything. I would guess there could be some chemical/element imbalance perhaps from the chemi-clean. In this case I guess the carbon/poly filter and wc are the only thing to do. I'd also watch the cuke, they can be toxic when they die. Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Thanks all.. I had carbon in my HOB until just the other day.. didn't want to keep it in to long. Yes, I'm using the 2.5g jugs of DI water (doesn't mention RO on it), but I'll be getting an RO/DI system here soon (late xmas pressie)... I have tested it for phosphates and silicates and none traceable.. but that's not to say individual containers may vary, and I'm not about to test each one at the moment .. I've got some phosphate pads, but I think I'm going to try to find a resealable pouch to put some phosguard in for the AquaClear.. Tiny.. you say the tank is overloaded? I thought cucumbers were a great source of natural filtration.. you mean overloaded for critters? or over loaded for everything.. I have yet to really even start adding corals! I've got 25g.. I can't be overloaded yet! I've also heard good and bad about skimmers.. primarily skimming out trace elements and stuff.. I'm just worried about skimming out that which I need.. would it be best to schedule it to run for a few hours a day, and not 24/7? Yes mother Satch.. I will clean my apartment .. I've been a lil to involved in getting the tank in balance to straighten up.. I feel much like the mad scientist I can be at times.. Thankfully work hasn't noticed me sleeping at my desk from my exhaustion.. heh heh j/k *Imagines waking up to the boss tapping on my sholder - keyboard imprint on face "I'm not asleep!" * Link to comment
lizbeth Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Xavier, I'd try a skimmer too. I was amazed at how much nasty looking stuff was pulled out of my 20 when I used one for a while. Also add back the carbon and rinse the filter sponge in very hot water. I'lll bet part of the problen comes from the water you have been using. You will feel better with the mess cleaned up....and we won't have to hear how you broke your leg tripping over something! Good luck, I feel for you. I'm fighting hair algae right now. Link to comment
chvynva916 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I never worry about my skimmer pulling out good stuff. I add liquid gold pro plus which takes care of amino acids and proteins that might be beneficial. Your salt should be replacing trace elements if you do weekly wcs. I know there is a big skimmer/no skimmer debate, but I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say they had good results REMOVING their skimmer. But many have good results ADDING a skimmer. In addition...I don't think its a problem to run carbon 24/7. JMO but I'd run a skimmer and carbon 24/7 if I were you. And watch your cuke! Link to comment
spoondigity Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I would agree. Skimmer and carbon 24/7. I would not treat for the cyano again as that treatment will only make things worse (on a side note, I did use ultralife red slime remover as an experiment once but not to remove cyano as I didn't have any cyano in the tank. It didn't have any negative effects that I could tell on the tank so if you absolutely want to treat again maybe try it instead). Polyfiber might not hurt either but I would rinse the carbon and polyfiber daily to keep them clean. You might also increase your water flow through the tank if it isn't good. I wouldn't scrub the rocks again by any means. P.S. I would also seriously limit feeding for awhile. While you don't want to starve anything, pay really close attention to how much food is going into the tank and how much sits on the bottom. Link to comment
tinyreef Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 xman, the issue with the cuke is sustaining it (adequate food supply in the substrate) without overloading the tank. the others are concerned about it dying and thereby polluting the tank (which is also an serious issue, obviously). the eventual corals shouldn't be adding any bio-load (directly) as their symbiont algae are processors of nutrients rather than producers. that doesn't mean that the corals' upkeep won't add to the bioload tho. (i.e. planktonic feedings) also another issue of overload is allowing the biological filters to adequately adjust to your bioloads. any excesses are just going to be processed by fungi and noxious bacteria. :x i'm not just calculating the livestock when i said overloaded (which is jmo btw) but also the history of die-offs that you mentioned and the lack of a skimmer. hth Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Originally posted by lizbeth You will feel better with the mess cleaned up....and we won't have to hear how you broke your leg tripping over something! Ahh.. yes.. well.. many a crunched toe already... this weekend is clean up time.. this week is a bit hectic.. it WAS clean before, erm, well, before I got the tank X) Heh heh heh Originally posted by spoondigity I would not treat for the cyano again as that treatment will only make things worse (on a side note, I did use ultralife red slime remover as an experiment once but not to remove cyano as I didn't have any cyano in the tank. It didn't have any negative effects that I could tell on the tank so if you absolutely want to treat again maybe try it instead The problem wasn't with the Chemi-Clean itself.. it was with how good it worked.. I know that seems odd.. but it worked so well, so fast, that the decay is what seems to have caused all the problems.. my biological filtration couldn't keep up... The water flow through the tank seems fine now.. I've been doing some adjusting and trying to watch via particulates where each flow hits my zoos, rics, candy cane and xenia.. I've also been trying different light levels on some of the zoos (been doing some research about different families of zoos and they all seem have somewhat different light requirements).. so far it seems they prefer being higher in the tank then lower (which could also be a flow problem if there isn't enough flow lower in the tank) Originally posted by tinyreef the issue with the cuke is sustaining it (adequate food supply in the substrate) without overloading the tank Well, there seems to be plenty of detritus in the tank.. I have few snails and only a handful of hermits.. but I can see your point.. it seems though that a lot of the "Clean-up Crew" packs from places like LiveAquaria and Jeff's Exotic Fish all have the tiger tail in it for my size tank. I did do the research on it. I did not get it blindly. The tank has been up for 2 months before putting him in, but I realize that still isn't truely "stable". I'll look into the skimmers but I'm still on the fence about it.. *sigh* Thanks again for your input everyone.. it's much appreciated. Link to comment
spoondigity Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah I have heard that when cyano dies of it basically poisons your water and that lots of water changes should be done when treating. Also, come to think of it, I doubt a skimmer would even work right now in your tank. That Chemi-Clean should have thrown your water off so much that a skimmer would be going crazy at this point and be useless most likely. Skimmer use before you got the cyano might have possibly headed the problem off at the pass but at this point it is just a guess. Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Yeah.. well.. that's kinda why I've been doing 20% water changes daily.. trying in vain to remove as much as I possibly could from the water.. Although I must say.. this morning.. things looked a bit better.. the clown is moving about the tank instead of sitting almost on the sand.. the Xenia are kinda half-pulsing.. and a few of the zoos opened up.. I may do one more wc and then see how it goes over the weekend.. Link to comment
chvynva916 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Let me preface this by noting I know nothing about algae removing chemicals (in this case chemi-clean). Seeing as how cyano releases toxins and phosphates when it dies, i'm surprised a treatment such as chemi-clean doesn't somehow neutralize those as well. If it doesn't, after the old cyano dies and releases phosphates new cyano will just take its place? What do you guys think about that? Link to comment
SLOreefer Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 ok....i think you are messing with your tank way too much. the 20%water changes daily are disruting everything in your tank. i know you dosed the chemi-clean or whatever....but get a skimmer. it will pull out all fo the crap in your tank which is causing your problems. chemicals are not the way to fix a tank. the more you add the more problems you will have. thats what ive noticed at least. you need to let nature kind of tank its course with your tank. do yourself a favor and reduce of headahce...get a skimmer...while its skiming you will have time to clean....and when you are cleaning and not changing water think of something nice to do with your gf because you arent gon ahave to worry about your tank anymroe. i dont know about you but chaning 4 gallons of water a day must be a pain. you probably have some cut arms though and a strong back...good luck Link to comment
LiQuiD Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Hey Xavier, still going through hell huh? Although it sonds from your last posts that all is coming out OK. I'm glad to hear that the chemi-clean did its trick, just wish you had siphoned out the pounds of it before you dosed it and killed it off to decompose in the tank. To everyone who is weary of chemicals (like myself I might add), chemi-clean does wonders with the pain in the ass cyano. I have seen it work in other tanks without harming anything but the cyano as well as my tank last week. The stuff does wonders when you get sick of trying to cure it naturally (just remove as much cyano as you can before dosing). Xavier, a couple questions... The 2.5 gallon jugs, do you mean it is bottled DISTILLED water or is it actually bottled De-Ionized water as you stated? Just that I have never seen bottled De-Ionized water before, Distilled & Reverse Osmosis yes, De-Ionized No. Also, something that I thought of while reading about your dilema. I remember you saying that another reefer from the board was sending you the chemi-clean. Did they send the measuring spoon with it as well? It comes with a VERY SMALL scoop that is leveled off for every 10 gallons. Reason I ask is that I sat around with a razor cutting the white powder (no funny remarks please, sniff sniff sniffel sniffel :woot:) up into quarters for the 2.5 and wanted to be sure it was measured correctly. You would have needed 2 & 1/2 scoops. That is probably only 2 scoops since your rock and sand are probably taking up 5 gallons worth of space. I'm just getting at the fact that you need to be very careful with the small amounts used for the tank and a few little granuals could overdose it. I attached a picture of the spoon that is used for measuring if you didn't get it with the powder. As mentioned about the $0 spent so far, I would suggest a $5 magnetic glass scraper as a next purchase. Good luck, but I think you'll be fine, it looks like the worst has come and gone. Link to comment
cjm033 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 ya they have bottled de-ionized i got someat food lion one time i needed water for a w/c and they were out of distilled it works fine in my tank,Chris Link to comment
Xavier Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 SLO.. I know chemicals are not the best way to fix the problem, the best way is to get to the root of the cause. But from what I've read, most people go through this bloom at least once during their start up, and then it passes. I haven't been adding chemicals like a mad scientist concocting some magic potion.. I actually haven't really done much to the water since the problem started (except the water changes, and a cap of Cycle).. I'll tell ya though, I won't need to go to the gym if I keep up with all the jugs of water.. Liquid.. Hah hah.. yes.. the dosage.. it was dosed appropriately.. he was kind enough to give me the proper levels... I had heard such good things about the Chemi-clean, and attempted to get some natural eaters of the stuff (which none of them really touched), I hadn't heard of anyone having it cause such a large release of toxins.. all the wiser this time... not touching it again if I don't have to.. I still have some visible.. I'll give it a month or so and see if it starts to die off... you know, you are correct about my water.. not DI.. not sure what I was thinking.. Distilled is what I meant.. I'd love to have an RO/DI unit.. it was supposed to be an xmas present, but has yet to arrive.. so I'm waiting on that and living with the distilled until then.. I do have a glass scraper.. I have a hand held and a magenetic.. I just haven't been to worried about asthetic issues lately.. been a bit more involved with keeping the tank afloat So of course.. as soon as I post the big sob story the tank starts looking better.. *knock on wood* Link to comment
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