Antibiotic Resistance: Ick

[willlgr1]

Over the past month or so i've noticed an occurance in other freshwater and saltwater ick to seemingly possess the ability to become resistant to specific medications.

Senerio 1: I was at work a about 2 months ago and have a batch of black neon tetra come in. After about a day i noticed ick appear on several of the fish, so they were immediately quarentined and placed in an FMC treatment (formaline, malacite green, and methaline blue). I kept them on this treatment for two weeks and noticed over the first week and a half the parasites decreased in numbers to only a few spots on a few fish. The following 3-4 days the parasites seemed to re-establish and the population was almost fully recovered to before the medicine started to work. I then switched them to copper. Again i noticed the same thing, over the first week or so the parasite population decline then again came back. So i switched them again after 2 weeks to acriflavine. Again, same thing.

Senerio 2: Hippo Tang, currently sitting in my quarentine tank at home, eventually for a client's tank. Horrible batch of fish delivered two weeks ago, a lot of stuff with ick, ended up having to use copper in an entire section. long story short, the ick is gone in the store, but i did notice on a few fish (coral beauty angel, the hippo i have and a sohal tang) the ick seemed to almost disappear after a week and a half in hyposalinity and copper, but came back strong 3 days later, while still on the meds. the hippo i brought home to give it a final more aggressive treatment before i brought it to a client's tank, but i've noticed over the past 3 weeks it's been in hyposalinity and copper the ick is still there!?

 

so i know all about ick and the eggs hatching several days later after the adults are killed, but the life cycle of ick is short enough that two weeks in meds should kill all adults and subsequent juveniles that hatch afterwards. So basically, my question is has anyone ever noticed this, or am i losing it?

[calvin415]

Never experienced it, but for Ich treatments I never medicate. I have cleaner shrimp established in a tank and add the infected fish to that tank; within a couple days they have cleared the fish of any ich. Great results even with Powder Blue Tangs.

[Six]

Yes that is common.

 

What is happening is you, or whomever is in charge of medicating, is not preventing the actual cause of the parasite. The reason fish get Cryptocaryon irritans (in layman's terms "saltwater ich") is:

#1- stress

#2- poor diet

#3- weakened immune system

 

When you get fish into the store they are stressed from transit, they have NOT been fed for 3-5 days before shipping (to reduce waste in the shipping water- it's normal to ship them this way) and thus they have a weakened immune system.

 

When you recieve the fish and they are getting sick and you put them on meds right away you are trying to "band-aid" the situation. To treat weak fish is going to result in disease time and time again.

 

Your best bet when you recieve the fish is to acclimate slowly into a QT tank and or make sure the fish is not sellable for at least one week. Feed a varied diet of foods including those rich in vitamins and omega 3 fatty acids (Selcon is a great supplement). Ensure the fish are not in a high traffic area and make sure the water is as clean as possible.

 

I am not a fan of hypnosalinity b/c its liquid stress. a healthy fish can take it but a newly imported one cannot.

 

If the fish are not eating, just keep the water as clean as possible and offer many types of foods. enriched brine is OK to get fish to eat.

 

Once your fish are healthy, they will naturally be resiliant to disease.

 

You touched on a good point, the use of meds for aquarium use. We are accidently creating more and more resiliant strains of bacteria (usually not parasites b/c they take longer to evolve than does a bacteria). If you were talking about a bacterial infection becoming resiliant I'd agree with you. But Crypt is not and does not show a strong resiliantcy when the host is in good shape.

 

Good Luck

Six

[Six]

the "FMC treatment (formaline, malacite green, and methaline blue). " is very drastic for newly aquired fish, expecially a whole tank of them. that will strip the oxygen right out of the water. That along with transport and acclimation stress is a very likely reason the fish keep getting sick. I'd try the options i stated above and if those dont work within the week, try one of the three meds. hitting them with all three is going to be a cocktail of possibilities and stress.

 

acriflavine will strip the bacteria from the filter media and cause major water chem problems as well as stripping out the oxygen. i would only use it as a bath or with many regualr water changes to regulate water chemisty in the absence of beneficial bacteria.

 

HTH

[willlgr1]

the "FMC treatment (formaline, malacite green, and methaline blue). " is very drastic for newly aquired fish, expecially a whole tank of them. that will strip the oxygen right out of the water. That along with transport and acclimation stress is a very likely reason the fish keep getting sick. I'd try the options i stated above and if those dont work within the week, try one of the three meds. hitting them with all three is going to be a cocktail of possibilities and stress.

 

acriflavine will strip the bacteria from the filter media and cause major water chem problems as well as stripping out the oxygen. i would only use it as a bath or with many regualr water changes to regulate water chemisty in the absence of beneficial bacteria.

 

HTH

 

 

i have always taken preventative measures against the effects of these meds, air stone are added to all tanks that are quarentined, and the tank is taken off the system so no meds enter the filter or the bacteria, parasite, whatever travels farther through the system. and 50% water changes are done every 24 hours before a new dose of medicine is administered

 

also, i always feed the fish a varied diet, prime reef flakes, formula pellets, and a frozen mix of mysis, krill, brine, spirulina, and lots of vitamins.

 

i don't normally have problem with ick and the fish, a batch of coral beautys two weeks ago brought it in and it spread very quickly. i don't normally keep the systems in extreme hyposalinity, i shoot for 1.018-1.020 for the norm, i dropped it to 1.015 over the course of 4 days after i noticed the ick, which was 2 days after the fish came in. unfortunately slow acclimation is not fully possible due to the time constraints and the quanitity of fish that arrive. i generally let the boxes sit for about a half hour so they can slowly warm up or cool down from being on the delivery truck half the day, then remove the bags and float them in dark tanks for no less the 30 minutes, rebagging anything that had no air or filthy water. i then let them loose in the systems and leave the lights off for no less than 4 hours. unfortunately that's the best i can do since the fish are dropped off in the middle of the business day and i have a few customers that throw a fit if they can't see the fish in the tanks cause the lights are off (and i'm tired of my boss having to talk to me cause the customers yell at him cause i refuse to turn the light back on). if i notice there is a fish that looks horrible and really needs a very slow acclimation i will drip acclimate, but the fish generally look good when they arrive.

 

so, any other recommendations would be great, i'll see what i have available as far as better foods.

 

thanks!

[Six]

i have a few customers that throw a fit if they can't see the fish in the tanks cause the lights are off (and i'm tired of my boss having to talk to me cause the customers yell at him cause i refuse to turn the light back on).

 

That is unfortunate. It's great to have loyal customers, but when they are actually hurting your company by making you acclimate the fish faster, you're losing more money through sick/dying fish. Maybe the owner/mgr doesnt see it that way, but if he's yappin in your ear about disease, that could be the main case.

 

You can't implement a rule that says so fish for sale until 24 hours after they arrive? Or tell the customers the fish are comming in Wednesday when they are really comming in Tuesday? That will probably help.

 

Otherwise you sound like youre caring for the fish as best you can given the circumstances. I would *try* to tell your boss the direct link between disease and poor acclimation/stress. sick fish= more unhappy customers than just those who have to wait one day to LOOK at them (expecially if customers arent even buyign the fish, why let them stress your stock by just wanting to tour your new arrivals? Try to tell customers you're doing hem a favor by acclimating them and waiting 24 hours to view them.

 

Are you finding this to be a seasonal occurarnce? The extreme Crypt cases? I find the winter months to be the worst as far as disease breakouts. I would wager it's probably temperature stresses as well as nutritional. If it's a particular fish thats bringing in disease, they might not be getting cared for correctly in handeling or shipping by your distributor. maybe take a break from that fish (again, tell the customers the fish are out of season as far as healthy individuals go. ) or buy them from another distributor. some places are better at shippign certain fish than others. salt or fresh.

 

HTH

keep up your vigilance!

6

[onthefly]

What is happening is you, or whomever is in charge of medicating, is not preventing the actual cause of the parasite. The reason fish get Cryptocaryon irritans (in layman's terms "saltwater ich") is:

#1- stress

#2- poor diet

#3- weakened immune system

 

Reverse these reasons and it will go away! I had a new clown goby go in my tank about 10-14 days ago. Friday, I noticed 3 spots of ich...fed selcon soaked mysis and it was gone by Sunday!

 

FWIW, ich is a parasite, not a bacterium....all the antibiotics in the world will not kill it!

[Six]

FWIW, ich is a parasite, not a bacterium....all the antibiotics in the world will not kill it!

 

Actually I was going to say just that.

 

but, im a nerd and looked it up to make sure.

 

"antibiotic" defined @ dictionary.com is:

A substance, such as penicillin or streptomycin, produced by or derived from certain fungi, bacteria, and other organisms, that can destroy or inhibit the growth of other microorganisms. Antibiotics are widely used in the prevention and treatment of infectious diseases.

 

Though it doesn't directly say it does not cure parasitic infections it kinda leaves a vauge idea that you could use "antibiotic" is reference to crypt as it's often referesd to as "an infectious disease". Kinda like calling fleas an infectious disease, LOL.

 

So i guess the way aquarists think of ich and crypt "antibiotic" is OK to use as a term, tho it is not OK to use as a medicine.

 

What a pain in the butt!

[icenine]

You can't implement a rule that says so fish for sale until 24 hours after they arrive?

 

My local petco holds fish for a day or two as an observation period.

If petco has higher standards that your shop, you should quit and find somewhere else to work.

[Caesar777]

According to the literature I was reading just today at work, Ich (Oodinium[sp]) is a protozoan. Again, medications are a last resort.

 

Also look up Lymphocystis(sp) and make sure it isn't that. Lympho requires a different treatment altogether.

[Six]

My local petco holds fish for a day or two as an observation period.

If petco has higher standards that your shop, you should quit and find somewhere else to work.

 

I don't think you could have been any more rude to someone who is trying to learn.

He's just trying to make a fish store better! C'mon! we should be praising him for the effort. Complaining and leaving isn't goint o help the fish.

[willlgr1]

My local petco holds fish for a day or two as an observation period.

If petco has higher standards that your shop, you should quit and find somewhere else to work.

 

 

 

that's not petco standards, that's the standards of the employees in that specific store.....i did leave once, came back because the money was just too good to pass up for someone like myself who is in college and needs a good paying job what is flexable with hours....but for the most part i have free rein of the department, i pretty much do what i need to, to keep everything clean and healthy, even with the boss down my neck.

 

lets see, i know what lympho, is....actually i'm extremely familiar with fish diseases (and i know ich is a parasite and anitbiotics will not do much good, i was refering more to antibiotics as a generalization for medications)

 

but on a better note, got the ich situation cleared up, moved out all the fish that were having the major problems, q/ted in the back on meds, no more ich in the system.....my major problem was i have started to carry invert and a few corals, and it's very hard to treat for a disease when these animals are in the systems.....well to make a long story short i've converted a section of freshwater i wasn't really using and now i'm gonna have an invert and coral section...it should be ready in a few weeks, i have some live rock coming in this week i'm going to cure it with.

 

 

six...thanks for the help, and anyone else who replied....helpful as always

[onthefly]

Just to calify,

 

As Six referenced, antibiotics (although the term can be generalized) are directly related to bacterial infections. The mode of action for most antibiotics is to block cell wall synthesis (since bacteria have cell walls and eukaryotes...protozoa, fish, elephants, humans, etc. don't). Therefore, treating a protozoa infection with an antibiotic can do more harm than good.

 

Proper diagnosis is the most important thing before you treat!

 

Glad to hear it cleared up....ich is not tough to beat

[willlgr1]

Just to calify,

 

As Six referenced, antibiotics (although the term can be generalized) are directly related to bacterial infections. The mode of action for most antibiotics is to block cell wall synthesis (since bacteria have cell walls and eukaryotes...protozoa, fish, elephants, humans, etc. don't). Therefore, treating a protozoa infection with an antibiotic can do more harm than good.

 

Proper diagnosis is the most important thing before you treat!

 

Glad to hear it cleared up....ich is not tough to beat

 

 

 

maybe i wasn't too clear.....what i mean is when i said antibiotics before i was refering to medications on the whole, not just a true antibiotic....i know what an antibiotic is, trust me, i also know it's effects and that it is not effective on a parasitic infection, although combining a parasitic medication with a bacteria antibiotic will keep the infections from the parasites from getting a bacteria infection

 

.....just to be clear, i don't generally use meds on saltwater, only as a last resort, proper diet and a clean system have always been top priority to me as far as keeping species healthy, if an infection (ick) occurs, freshwater dips, if it doesn't begin to clear up after a week, quarantined and medicated. i don't like using meds for saltwater, but i'd rather use them then run the risk of infecting more fish.

 

i've been working the local fish store scene for about 5 years now, hobbiest for obviously longer, when it comes to meds i know pretty well what will treat for what, antibiotics obviously being a little trickier because of the resistance to antibiotics so many bacterium have developed these days. purpose of this thread was a simple observation i found that the ick parasite seemed to thrive through several courses of medication, which i found suprising. just though i would share and see if anyone could elaborate in it. i appreciate the commentary from all, good info as always!

[Six]

Will, so you've got things cleared up? do you attribute anything in particular to that? just wondering.

[willlgr1]

Will, so you've got things cleared up? do you attribute anything in particular to that? just wondering.

 

there were only two fish that were still showing signs of the ick, i removed them from the system and q/ted them in the back in a copper treatment (doing much better now), left the system in hyposalinity for a few more days then slowly brought it back up to 1.020......no signs of ick at this point, brought everything back up a few days ago

[Caesar777]

Ich larvae stay alive and swirling in the water column for about four weeks with no fish. Otherwise, they stay as long as the fish are there, and manifest during points of weakness.

[NEVER SATISFIED REFFER]

In the 35 years of fish keeping, I never found a parasite med that worked. Usually the fish has them internal as well, so after treatment, 3 weeks later they are right back.

 

I only alternative was to add a UV light. Never had a problem since. If I get an outbreak, I turn it on for about 1.5 months, then just turn it off. It's been almost a year since my last problem. I use the turbotwist 18watt. I wouldn't waste my time with anything else.

[Six]

A UV is a great idea for a tank that does not get new fish all the time. In a store it may not be as useful. A store near me uses a UV on their FW system, it's all inline and plumbed together, about 4,000 gallons in all. The UV is run 24/7 but since there is such a large volume of water and the fish do not get QT'd for months before introduction to the system (by months i mean to get entirely rid of the parasite when you get a shipment of say, blue rams, you'll have to wait until every last fish has been rid of the parasite for one month before putting them on system. unfortunatly this is not a good idea if you actually want to sell fish.).

Since new fish are added into the system every week, so is disease.

 

Sounds awful, but I don't think there are any stores that QT for as long as they

"should." I know of another store that keeps their FW fish off a system, but they have worse problems with disease because they cram so many fish into a smaller volume and less oxygenated water.

 

I dunno. I've never seen ich so bad a little TLC wouldn't cure. maybe im just lucky.