Buffering PH

[Schwazreef]

I have noticed that my Ph is fading a bit. Its only a little over 8.0 when I wake up in the morning. Seeing as how I am getting into stonies a little bit I am definately gonna pick up some Kalkwasser next LFS trip, my question is this, however...

 

Reading Fenner today I noticed the suggestion of Baking Soda to buffer PH. Is this a reef safe suggestions, or is there too much other crap in ther that will foul the water. Just curious.

[Andy Somnifac]

I have noticed that my Ph is fading a bit. Its only a little over 8.0 when I wake up in the morning. Seeing as how I am getting into stonies a little bit I am definately gonna pick up some Kalkwasser next LFS trip, my question is this, however...

 

Reading Fenner today I noticed the suggestion of Baking Soda to buffer PH. Is this a reef safe suggestions, or is there too much other crap in ther that will foul the water. Just curious.

 

I use this in my cichlid tank with no problems. I'm curious to hear the thoughts of others on its use in salt water.

[reefin300]

it's fine. I was told buy 7 boxes.

 

lay 1 box flat spread very thin over a baking dish and cook for 30 mins. Then mix all of them together and you have a well rounded buffer.

 

the thread below shows if you do not have washing soda you bake the 1 box to make it...

 

Just keep in mind that PH readings will vary in the mornign from the evening.

 

 

well here's the thread that explains it in pretty good detail.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...t=baking%2Bsoda

[frag]

Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) is the active substance in almost all marine buffers.

[Caesar777]

Wrong... Use of sodium bicarbonate will create a chemical reaction resulting in carbonic acid--that's battery acid for you kiddies. Reef buffers use various carbonates, not BIcarbonates. Two totally different chemicals.

 

EDIT: Cheap companies use Sodium bicarbonate. Dumb.

[bobioden]

Wrong... Use of sodium bicarbonate will create a chemical reaction resulting in carbonic acid--that's battery acid for you kiddies. Reef buffers use various carbonates, not BIcarbonates. Two totally different chemicals.

 

EDIT: Cheap companies use Sodium bicarbonate. Dumb.

 

 

This is the second time I have seen you post on Baking Soda and it being like battery acid. Do you have a link to where you have read this? I have been using Baking Soda for years and it is recommended all the time at Reef Central. Randy in the Chemistry Forum talks about it quite a bit and never says anything negative. If I am doing something wrong I would like to stop.

 

Thanks,

 

Bob

[randygsx]

I have been using Baking Soda for years and it is recommended all the time at Reef Central. Randy in the Chemistry Forum talks about it quite a bit and never says anything negative. If I am doing something wrong I would like to stop.

 

Thanks,

 

Bob

 

keep using it because Ceasar is spouting BS again

 

Wrong... Use of sodium bicarbonate will create a chemical reaction resulting in carbonic acid--that's battery acid for you kiddies.

 

o.O? do you even know what you're talking about or did you just make that up?

Does mixing a bicarbonate with water result in carbonic acid? YES, ABSOLUTELY! That's what carbonic acid is: a mixture of water, carbon dioxide, and a bicarbonate/carbonate salt (sodium)....

 

Please go back and take High School chemistry 101 before you continue preaching the BS

....Dumb.

 

to Schwazreef: yeah, you can use baking soda to buffer as others have said but I would definately do a lot of reading on proper dosages.

 

~randy

[frag]

Caesar:

 

This quote is from Bob Fenner Conscientious Marine Aquarist

"To counteract the tendency of aquarium pH to fall or become more acidic over time, a weekly dose of a buffering agent- either baking soda or an aquarium product-can be a simple beneficial measure"

Of course everyone knows that baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. If you don't know what you are talking about please don't attack me personally

[dhoffroad]

well what's your Alk at ?? I use baking soda to raise my Alk if needed which (of corse) will change your PH a littel...

[DiverDave]

"An increase of the buffer capacity may be reached by adding sodium hydrogen carbonate (NaHCO3) and sodium carbonate(NaCO3) in a 5:1 ratio. A solution of these substances has a pH of 8.0." -Exerpt from "The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium" by Fossa and Nielson A further GOOGLE search for Sodium Bicarbonate identified it's chemical composition as NaHCO3. Fossa and Nielsons book was ranslated from German to English, but I'm pretty sure the Chemical composition remains the same. Last I checked, an acid would have a pH of less that 7.0.

[bobioden]

"An increase of the buffer capacity may be reached by adding sodium hydrogen carbonate (NaHCO3) and sodium carbonate(NaCO3) in a 5:1 ratio. A solution of these substances has a pH of 8.0." -Exerpt from "The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium" by Fossa and Nielson A further GOOGLE search for Sodium Bicarbonate identified it's chemical composition as NaHCO3. Fossa and Nielsons book was ranslated from German to English, but I'm pretty sure the Chemical composition remains the same. Last I checked, an acid would have a pH of less that 7.0.

 

Nice quote, but what do YOU thinK?

 

 

Cearsar777 IF you have proof to BACK your statements plesae do. If not, Please stop posting negative posts on Bakling Soda.

 

I have over 4+ years in the nano reef hobby and have manitained a few above average nano tanks, all by using BAKING SODA as my weekly suppliment

If I am doing something wrong, please point it out so I can correct it.

 

I posted this question on RC in the Chemistry forum and here is what I have found.

 

The post at Reef Central:

 

Baking Soda - Good or Bad

[onthefly]

Battery acid is sulfuric acid, not carbonic acid.......that's what's in coca-cola

 

The baking procedure only "drives" off excess water from the bicarb. By doing this you increase its solubility in FW.

 

Baking soda is TOTALLY reef safe!

[randygsx]

Battery acid is sulfuric acid, not carbonic acid.......that's what's in coca-cola

 

Baking soda is TOTALLY reef safe!

 

Yeah, no kidding. EVERYONE STOP DRINKING SODA NOW!!!! IT'S BATTERY ACID OMG OMG!!!

 

~randy

[Caesar777]

I've been at work, and wow. Took me two seconds to find an answer.

 

"A simple way to think of the relationship between carbon dioxide and pH is as follows. Carbon dioxide in the air is present as CO2. When it dissolves into water, it becomes carbonic acid, H2CO3:

 

1. CO2 + H2O à H2CO3 "

 

And..

 

"combining a baking soda solution at pH 8.3 with artificial seawater at pH 8.2 can result in a pH that is actually below pH 8.2 (in this case, the pH drops because the bicarbonate in baking soda is a stronger acid in seawater than it is in freshwater). Consequently, interpreting pH problems and solutions requires knowledge of more than just the pH of the solutions involved."

 

From http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php

 

And from Reef Central, since you all love forums.

 

" quote:Originally posted by MalHavoc

Well, it can be argued that the nitrate ion does form a nitric acid intermediate, which reacts with carbonate to form bicarbonate, thus lowering the alkalinity. The nitrate -> nitric acid problem is pretty well documented in freshwater tanks where the pH is much lower.

 

 

Generally it is nitrification of ammonium that directly produces acid:

 

2 NH4+ + 3 O2 --> 2 NO2- + 2 H2O + 4 H+

 

Mineralisation and nitrification will also result in the production of CO2 through respiration and this will result in the formation of carbonic acid which will also lower the pH.

 

Nitrate on its own will not have much influence on the pH of the water, if any....

 

"Note that it doesn't matter how high the alkalinity is, excessive carbon dioxide can and will lower the pH of the water. This is the principle behind calcium carbonate reactors...

 

"A simple test you can perform is to take a sample of water and measure the pH. Aerate (an airstone works great for this) the sample for 15-20 minutes and measure the pH again. If there is a noticeable increase, the low pH is from excessive CO2. You may want to perform this test twice, once near the tank and once outside in fresh air. This will help determine if the problem is the room or the tank."

 

That's a post by "ATJ", thread at http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...ng&pagenumber=1 .

 

And another thread, entitled "Sodium Bicarbonate Lowering pH - Why?", can be found at http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6931 . Not going to copy-and-paste the whole convo, but a few excerpts...

 

"One of the problems of using sodium bicarbonate over time is that it changes the composition of the conservative elements in seawater...Craig Bingman has a study using a computer model where many of the conservative elements change their quantities in seawater due to dilutional effect and consumption and elimination. If borate is one, then the buffer capacity of seawater is further diminished, leaving mostly bicarbonate and carbonate to handle the acid/base reactions...the bicarbonate (predominant specie in this reaction) will be consumed by the acids, driving carbonate back to the reactant bicarbonate and further dropping pH...

 

"So what do these things mean to us? When adding sodium BICARBONATE to the system, if there were no other ions, the pH would only be 8.2, not a lot to affect a pH of 8.1 much to start with. If there are significant amounts of organic acids in the water column, they will quickly react with the bicarbonate ion to form the neutral form of that acid and release carbon dioxide gas into the water column. This results in a rapid drop of the pH of the water column due to the formation of carbonic acid and a depletion of the buffer capacity of the solution, not what we might expect when adding baking soda."

 

Err, I mean...I just made it up. You kids can really lay down a beatin'. And why?

 

PS, you SHOULD stop drinking soda-pop. The carbonic acid and the phosphorus compounds (including phosphoric acid) lower your blood's pH, causing your bones to leach calcium into your bloodstream as a buffer. The caffeine added has been proven to cause nearly as much damage to the major arteries as cocaine, which basically shreds the aorta (figuratively).

 

"In addition to cavities, heavy pop consumption has been linked to diabetes, obesity, kidney stones, heart disease and osteoporosis."

 

http://www.modental.org/YourDentalHealth/StopthePop.aspx

 

"Animal studies demonstrate that phosphorus, a common ingredient in soda, can deplete bones of calcium."

 

http://www.mercola.com/2001/mar/10/soda_pop_dangers.htm

 

 

But what do I know?

[bobioden]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

All alkalinity supplements contain either bicarbonate, carbonate, or hydroxide. They all equilibrate in the tank with adequate CO2 from the air to form the same thing: mostly bicarbonate and some carbonate. If CO2 is not drawn in from the air fast enough, using carbonate and especially hydroxide can boost pH (which is often an advantage).

 

So there is nothing wrong with baking soda. I recommend it in many of my products, such as my DIY two part additive:

 

A Homemade Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Additive System

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/chem.htm

 

I will stick with Randy's advice.

 

Bob

[MrAnderson]

Caesar, I think your references illustrate that pH levels and hardness are two related but separate issues. Having "hard" water will certainly help stabilize pH, but if your CO2 levels are really high then the hardness will only stabilize and perhaps exaggerate a low pH. The scenarios described above rely on extreme levels of CO2 to really be disastrous. Also, carbonic acid is transient in solution.

 

I dont think that baking soda should be used to control pH. I think that pH should be controlled by manipulating dissolved CO2 via the metabolisms of macroalgae and fauna of the tank, not by using baking soda.

 

However, I use it all the time, to supplement carbonate consumed by my corals. I control pH in other ways.

[Caesar777]

They ARE related, and tied together. Regardless, my bad on the batteries thing. THAT took all of two seconds to find, as well. Anyway, I realize my original post was worded rather "harshly", or, to be ironic, "the wrong way", but the point still stands. Baking soda is NOT a good buffer for our tanks. Neither is "washing soda", borates. I've been hearing more and more new problems with borates... (MrA, PM)

[frag]

Caesar are you saying that you are right and Bob Fenner and Randy are wrong? Come on dude I don't buy it!

[Caesar777]

Not saying that, however Bob Fenner does believe in borate buffering, and I've heard bad things about that. THAT, and isn't he into the deep-sand beds?

[frag]

What do you suggest people do? I would point to the success many have had over long periods of time using wash soda and baking soda in conjunction with water changes. It works, end of story. By the way Bob Fenner is a God of Reef keeping. What he says is gospel. Finally I point to the post in this thread by Randy from RC to support my claims. I believe you are wrong on this one, however I have a feeling you are the type of person who is never wrong.

[bobioden]

I believe you are wrong on this one, however I have a feeling you are the type of person who is never wrong.

 

 

 

I agree completly. I think you hit the nail on the head with that one.

 

Bob

[Caesar777]

I don't understand what you're missing, here.

 

Adding baking soda raises the alkalinity but LOWERS pH.

 

If I recall correctly, the title of this thread is "BUFFERING PH", and the person's problem is LOW PH. Read my links again.

 

And yes, I CAN be wrong. Obviously nobody can know everything. But I don't think I'm insane, here. I've read it all multiple times, in case maybe I'M mistaken...But it doesn't seem to be, here. Heck, I admit it when I'm wrong.

[Schwazreef]

I love to be the person who asks the good question. Its the whole point of raising your hand. Looks like everone is having fun...er...discussing.

 

As for:

By the way Bob Fenner is a God of Reef keeping. What he says is gospel.

 

Why would a scientist (or even someone who play's one in their hobby)say any book was the gospel, even if it was written by a guy named Matthew?

[frag]

Hey Caesar:

 

Alkalinity is raised through the usage of sodium bicarbonate. This causes pH not to fall, it does not lower pH. I think we should rethink what we are discussing. After all wouldn't my suggestion of water changes and sodium bicarbonate solve the low pH problem that began this thread? Honestly you will argue anything. BTW please link me to a thread were you have ever admitted you were wrong. I have read all of them and could not find any examples.

 

Bob Fenner is the man, I gotta represent for my boy.

[Caesar777]

So you're saying that the myriad of links I posted, showing actual chemistry, are BS? We're arguing the point of what sodium bicarbonate does to our tanks' water: it raises the alk and LOWERS PH. Did you read my links, or just skim through because you automatically assume I'm BSing you?