Denitrification in Nano??

[Trag]

Im still in the R&D phase of my first Nano

(R&D phase taking fo eva)

 

Anyway...

Is it possible to achieve Denitrification in a Nano Size Tank?

(Grow Anaerobic Bacteria)

 

Deep Sand Bed is obviously out of the question...(plz excuse me for mentioning such things in a Nano "Zone")

 

Only other thing I can think of is a Nitrate Reductor?! ???

I have no expierence with these filters, and have mostly heard bad things about them...If someone has a good experience with them I would luv to hear about it...

 

Of course the obvious answer is lotta water changes

 

Ideas, Input, Flames ?

 

OT

Whats the word for a bunch of Nano Reefers??

Nanoos? ???

[LiQuiD]

Water changes! That is the wonderful part of having the nano, they are typically so small that doing a weekly water change is relatively simple and not very expensive. You don't need to buy any filters, nor do you need to add suppliments (although sometimes some don't hurt;) ). In this realm you need to forget all that you have learned from the big tanks you have. What was once unheard of and said could not be done is being done everyday by more and more of us (my 2.5 gallon nano is so far one of the healthiest and stable reef tanks I have had, I even keep fish in it and several crabs, shrimp and snails, and I even feed them daily sometimes twice even. Bioload to high?... not this tank, I just keep pushing the limits and the coral & critters are now thriving).

[LiQuiD]

Sorry, got carried away and forgot to mention.......The refugium! Some nice thick sand and a healthy crop of caulerpa and your good to go (it CAN be done, just do it in the tank in the back). BTW the 2.5 gallon does not have a fuge but I am thinking about it)

[printerdown01]

The denitrification process most certainly occurs in nanoreefs. LR and LS will help the process. As for whether or not DSBs are of use is some debate. However, I can tell you that finer grained sand is MUCH more effective at creating a anaerobic environment in nanos than is a larger grain. Thus, something like oolitic aragonite or a "mud" (mud simply reffering to a particle size not the brown goopy stuff) is much more useful. First of all it will provide more surface area for bacteria to grow. Second it will have greater compaction, which will decrease the depth needed to create an anaerobic sand bed. I too have found nanos to be quite stable. I rarely do more than a 10% bi-weekly water change, and have no problems with ammonia or nitrates. I do however use a bio-wheel, which helps convert the ammonia to nitrates. But mention that around here, and you'll look like a toasted chestnut for the hollidays! It works well for me, and has for about a year and a half. I have also seen AWESOME stable set-ups with no filtration what so ever, save sand and rock.

[Trag]

I know Live Rock grows some anaerobic bacteria...

But is it enough to keep Nitrates in a Nano real close to Zero?

 

I plan on using 1" of Oolictic sand. Which also "could" (might not) be a source of anaerobic bacteria, but still dont think it would a substantial amount...

 

I think I worded my question wrong... :

 

I know "some" anaerobic bacteria grows in a nano...And some denitrification takes place...

 

So my new question is

 

Anyone grow enough anaerobic bacteria in their Nano to keep Nitrates around 0 for more then 2 weeks?

or SOmething like that

 

Be Gentle

[Hinecken]

zero nitrates in my 11 gallon for over 3 weeks now. 15% weekly water changes is al I do.

[Satchmo]

I've had zero nitrates in my 10g for 8 months. I have a 1.5" sandbed of Southdown, but the nitrates dropped off before the sandbed could have possibly established itself, so I know it's the rock that's denitrifying.

[Dave ESPI]

Originally posted by Trag

Im still in the R&D phase of my first Nano

(R&D phase taking fo eva)

 

Anyway...

Is it possible to achieve Denitrification in a Nano Size Tank?

(Grow Anaerobic Bacteria)

 

Only other  thing I can think of is a Nitrate Reductor?! ???  

I have no expierence with these filters, and have mostly heard bad things about them...If someone has a good experience with them I would luv to hear about it...

 

R&D is most important part. Good to se ya not just jumping into it.

 

Anerobic zones are present in all tanks. (Above stated replies)

Select liverock that is dense in shape, but has an inner working complex tunnel system, as this will work well.

 

Ferget the redux chamber. They are usefull, but not fer a nano.

Just do W/C and dont over feed or stock an immature tank ya will be fine.

 

welcome to NR.com

[Trag]

Hey Satchmo,

That was the exact answer I was looking (hoping) for

 

Can you give me some info on your setup?

 

Tank Size?

#'s of LR?

Most importantly, type of live rock??

And how often you do water changes?

 

IME the footprint of a Nano sand bed isnt big enough to establish much if any aerobic bacteria...so the LR would have tobe the main source...

 

Thnx for the Welcome Dave

I might be Nano Newb, but Im not a total Newb

Never play a game without knowing all the rules...

If your gonna play games with mother nature, you best know the rules

 

I really didnt want to go with a Redux chamber...just thought I through it out there...

[Korbin]

I dunno. I'm starting to see some bubbles develop in my 6 month old, sorta-deep sand bed in my 12 gallon. I wouldn't say nitrifying bacteria are totally out of the question there.

[Trag]

Thats awesome Korbin!

 

How deep is your bed?

What kind of sand?

[Korbin]

Its about 2.5 inches deep. I used aragonite with medium-sized grains. Not quite sand, not quite crushed coral. I also have quite a bit of detritus and worm poop in there which reduces the pore size even more. Thats mostly where I'm starting to see some small bubbles. They're about half way down from the surface of the sand. I'm not saying that its nitrification for sure, but it seems like it to me. My nitrates stay low and I have been feeding a little more lately. - now that I think of it, I've seen worms travel right through the areas with the bubbles. I don't know if that means its not anaerobic or what.

 

I don't think nitrifying bacteria are that rare in nano sandbeds. I took apart my 9 month old 3 gallon recently. When I dug out the aragonite (same stuff in my 12 gallon), there were spots under the rocks that were discolored and stunk like it was anaerobic. Or maybe it just stunk . But it sure was strong. :x

 

Again, all of this is just my humble opinion....

[flaunt]

i had 0 nitrates back when i was using a 1g rubbermaid container that was about 10" tall. i put a 6" bed of aragamax in it and i used to see bubbles forming in the lowest layers of the sand. hth

[printerdown01]

My trates are REALLY low. No problems at all (even when I didn't have a fuge -this was a 1 year period). I 'try' to do bi-weekly water changes, but often they are missed and become tri-weekly. I only preform 1 gallon changes on a 12 gallon + 2.5 gallon fuge. I only have 1 fish, so I don't have a lot of waste... but my system is most certainly ballanced.

[LiQuiD]

Same here, 1 gallon change in the 12 gallon, weekly though (I could probably go bi-weekly but have 2 fish that I feed twice a day) nitrates are at a cool 0, zip, zilch. It would seem like less than 10% WC but considering it has between 25 and 30 lbs. of LR it is probably closer to a 20% change. This tank also has no fuge and has 3 lbs of LS added to 7 lbs (1") crushed coral. I also have recently removed all caulerpa. I would then have to conclude that most all of the filtration is done by the LR. Oh yeah, and I am running the Bio-wheel on the eclipse hood which is supposed to produce high amounts of nitrates but is not the case.

[Satchmo]

Originally posted by Trag

That was the exact answer I was looking (hoping) for  

 

Can you give me some info on your setup?

 

Happy to. It's a 10g with an inch and a half of Southdown sand and roughly 15lbs of Fiji. I was showing nitrates for about the first month, but the levels never really rose, so there must have been some degree of denitrification going on even back then. The trates have since dropped off and haven't returned. I do a 1g w/c weekly. This is obviously to replace trace elements, not for nitrate control. I run this system skimmerless and use no means of nutrient export outside the water changes. It's chock full of corals, a small clown and Royal Gramma.

 

You can get all the denitrification you'll need from quality rock alone. IMO, the key is biodiversity and frugal feeding. A good crew of detrivores will gobble up waste, incorporating it into their biomass instead of allowing it to breakdown and pollute the water. That, coupled with careful feeding, should keep wastes down to a minimum. Keep nitrate production as low as you reasonably can, and the rock does the rest.

 

For what it's worth, you can get anaerobic layers in sandbeds of less than the typical 4" minimum of a DSB. It's dependant on grain size and shape more than anything else. I remember Sahin posting where he added a relatively shallow bed of fine grade sand and watched his trates fall off as it developed.

[Trag]

Thnx for all the great feedback guys!

Im finding it all very helpful, it seems alot of you have well balanced tanks, which is very nice

 

Lil side note on Sand Beds in Nanos...

There is no doubt you can get anaerobic bacteria in as lil as 1" of sand (fine sand)

But what Im trying to figure out is, how stable and fully functional a Nano Sized Bed is...

From what I've been told, the foot print (square footage) of a nano, is not big enough to support a reliable fully functional sand bed over a long period of time. Im talking about square footage not depth here...(elbow room)

But, as Ive said, I dont have alot of expiernece with Nano's, thats why Im asking you guys...And what Im getting from you guys is, that it works very well, which is very encouraging

 

A SandBed can hum along fine for 12-18 months, and then one day you have a masssib outbreak of algae, Sand Bed just crashed?? ???

 

 

Korbin,

Are you sure that smell wasnt hydrogen sulfide??

When things break down in the anoxic zone, it could result in hydrogen sulfide, which could be bad :*(

[Satchmo]

Originally posted by Trag

From what I've been told, the foot print (square footage) of a nano, is not big enough to support a reliable fully functional sand bed over a long period of time. Im talking about square footage not depth here...(elbow room)

 

Yeah, that's my understanding too. Either way, with real estate at a premium in our tanks, I wouldn't go with anything deeper than an inch or two anyway. Good rock seems to do the job well enough for most of us in terms of keeping nitrates at bay, making DSBs somewhat moot.

 

What size tank are you planning? If you're doing one with a slightly larger footprint (say a 20-Long), you can go with an "MSB" of about 3". Several people have been doing that with (at least) short-term success.

[Korbin]

Originally posted by Trag

Are you sure that smell wasnt hydrogen sulfide??  

When things break down in the anoxic zone, it could result in hydrogen sulfide, which could be bad  :*(

 

I don't think it was. It didn't smell like rotten eggs at all. I used to work in a groundwater laboratory, and I have smelled anaerobic bacteria in action many times. Thats what it smelled like to me. The sand was a grey-ish color where it smelled the worst.

[Trag]

Originally posted by Satchmo

 

Yeah, that's my understanding too. Either way, with real estate at a premium in our tanks, I wouldn't go with anything deeper than an inch or two anyway. Good rock seems to do the job well enough for most of us in terms of keeping nitrates at bay, making DSBs somewhat moot.

 

From talking to you guys, and research, that is the conclusion I have come too...

I'll prolly go with 1 1/2" sand bed...(like you)

First inch will be Aragonite Oolitic Sugar Sized, the other 1/2" will be a slighty larger grain size (input??)

Hopefully that will create both zones...

But like you said, if that works well or doesnt work at all, good rock will take care of most of the nitrates

 

I kicked around the idea of a 3" bed, but came to the conlcusion its too risky...IME 3" is kinda "no mans land", might be too deep, might not be deep enough...could turn into a nitrate factory (a risk Im not willing to take)

 

Im considering either a 29 rectangle or a 28 Bow Front

Heard alot better things about bow front

I know these arent true nanos, but they are small enough that alot of nano philosophy applies...(input??)

 

Lastly, anyone wanna reccomend a premium Fiji Live ROck dealer online??

Anyone have a good expeirence they wanna share??

 

 

Hey Korbin, thats really kewl you have an aquired smell for anaerobic bacteria!!!

That must come in handy

Good to hear it wasnt sulfide...

Did you say those areas were where the live rock was covering the sand??