Xavier Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 I've been tossing this idea around.. I've even sketched a rough draft (I'll try to scan it when I can).. but I've been trying to solve the problem I brought about on my own... since I never drilled the tank when I got it, and I have no room above my tank (so it would need to go under or to the side), what is the best way to still maintain a fuge, but allow full bypass... Some of us in the chat room were kinda talking about it and the idea of a canister filter came up... but on a larger, more horizontal, scale... what if a fuge were to be built in a standard rectangle, but had a lid that sealed shut as a canister filter does. This would allow the water to fill the entire cavity... Your pump could reside in the main tank, pushing water down to the fuge, through it from one end, and then forced back up into the tank from the other (probably from a bulkhead mounted in the lid). Since it would be a closed system, the force required to pump the water back into the main tank from the fuge is simply the pump force against gravity. Siphon wouldn't matter since it has no where to overflow to. Lighting could simply be some PCs over the lid as usual. One concern that was raised was the gas exchange. Still trying to solve that one. Another one is flow speed.. the water will pump through the fuge at the rate of the pump's vertical speed (speed at which it can pump water from below the fuge to the main tank)... I'd probably need a Rio 1000+ (simply for example) just to make a good flow back into the tank from about ~5ft (my Rio 600 pumps a nice slow stream from ~5ft through 1/2" tubing). What else can you think of that might be an issue? I have yet to setup a fuge, so bear with me... just trying to think of an alternative solution... it certainly would be an interesting experiment at the least.. if anything comes to fruition, I might have some acrylic cut for me to make a mini version to test the idea.. but I'd like to get some feed back from you guys before I start... Link to comment
glazer Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Sounds as though you are talking about putting this giant fuge/canister filter UNDER the tank? Pump for it IN the tank? Your tank would be filled then mostly with PUMP! If you did it the way a canister filter is actually designed.... pump in the filter, siphoning/sucking the water out of the tank and THEN pumping it up to the display then yeah, could work. The way you are talking you would have to pressurize the whole enchilada and that my would require a pump with some serious huevos. There's also the issues of getting a good seal on the lid... the bigger the lid the more involved... probably have to go with a large "O-ring" /gasket and lots of latches/clamping places as acrylic has some pretty good flex to it. What size tank is this for anyway?... you know you could just have a small overflow box made (I can tell ya who will do it) and use another small tank underneath for your sump/fuge... the dollar savings I would think would be LARGE! Link to comment
DeskJockey Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 I agree with glazer that would take some serious "huevos" to pressurize the chamber. A tank under the main tank works fine. I have my fuge in my stand. It flows into the sump and the water is returned to the main tank. And dont worry about critters not making the journey. I have a bunch of mysis in there that I only introduced to the fug. I forgot what forum it was, but this guy feeds a certain pipe fish 1 inch ghost shrimp. And he wanted to test they're mecca through the return system sure enough 7 out of 10 1" ghost shrimp made it through the return pump! A 5g tank underneath would be cheap and perfect Link to comment
Pulldownyourpants Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 This is actually close to what I wanted to do so that I wouldn't have to rely on gravity for the siphon. But like Glazer said, it's a canister filter (made of glass). Your concern with the gas exchange is a valid one too. Unlike a canister filter, there is no clear way to clean this once it's full-o-poop. I can see the gases being pumped right back into the tank. Might this create a toxic environment? I really wanted to find some kind of dual action pump that would both pull and push water at the same rate, out of the same sump/fuge That would be most Ideal!!! Sounds tricky but I'm sure someone has to have made one. Link to comment
Xavier Posted December 19, 2002 Author Share Posted December 19, 2002 I was just thinking of something as an alternate to the norm.. I don't have much space to work with... something I would remedy with my next tank (practice makes perfect I suppose).. The pump COULD reside in the compressed fuge, but you'd have to seal it in, which would be bad if it crapped out.. agreed again on a solid seal on the lid would be required.. Glazer, if you know someone who can assist with an overflow box (or I could buy one from some online retailer.. I think I've seen a few) that would work.. I have a 25H.. I was more interested in the project and it's feasibility... this is a hobby where rules seem to be broken and re-established... Link to comment
glazer Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Glazer, if you know someone who can assist with an overflow box (or I could buy one from some online retailer.. I think I've seen a few) that would work.. I have a 25H.. I was more interested in the project and it's feasibility... this is a hobby where rules seem to be broken and re-established... Aw dude, I didn't mean to be a buzz-kill... you asked for some feedback. I mean the idea you have will indeed work, mechanically that is, it just needs to be set up differently than what you originally planned. If it's a 25 high, (decent sized tank) there are lots of commercial made overflows that would do the trick, um DON'T get a CPR overflow.. *cough cough CRAP cough cough*. I thought you were talking about a much smaller tank where regular overflows would be too large or unsightly. If you do want a small one.. say in the 200 to 300 gph range.... check out that guy, dun dun dun Acrylicman over on Ebay... believe his user name is "displaycollectables". He quoted me like 40 or 50 bucks for a mini-overflow setup with the interior skimmer cup in black. I ended up drilling my tank so didn't go that route. Good luck with your 'fuge project and hey... if ya got any more ideas you want slapped down on just shout.... Link to comment
DeskJockey Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 pants- Someone doese make a pump that does that, I cant remember who makes it but some online supply place (cant remember that either) sales them, but they are not cheap. I recall them needing 7.5" clearance above the tank. They mount to the top of the main tank but do not come with a bracket. Someone on RC used them and liked there performance but a PITA to set-up. Plus the gpm flow would be to high for a nano but good for larger tank. Link to comment
DeskJockey Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 I found it! http://www.championlighting.com/e/env/0001...mps/hitech.html Link to comment
glazer Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 I really wanted to find some kind of dual action pump that would both pull and push water at the same rate, out of the same sump/fuge That would be most Ideal!!! Sounds tricky but I'm sure someone has to have made one. Okay, apparently I am way under-caffienated thus stoopid *more coffee on the way*... don't ALL pumps do this? They just move water, they don't make it.... what comes out had to go in, and vice-versa. If you have a pump with 500 gph at 0 head then it sucked in 500gph.... at a 5 foot head if that pump now puts out 250 gph it sure ain't still sucking 500 gallons worth. If you have a sealed box, SEALED I say... so that there is no way for it to suck in any air..... you could have a pump IN the box or plumbed externally. The intake line off said sealed box stuck in your tank would only suck out the amount of water that the pump could push back INTO the tank..... it's a canister filter, not rocket science.....lol Alright, Mr. Coffee has come through... I'm gonna go get me some and come back and read this again... if I messed up here I will apologize and edit accordingly. Link to comment
Pulldownyourpants Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Originally posted by glazer Okay, apparently I am way under-caffienated ..............(blah blah blah)......... messed up here I will apologize and edit accordingly. Yes a canister filter IS what you describe. Not what I want though. I'm looking for a pump that has four hoses/connections/whatever. Two for intake and two or out...go..or something. This would then be added to a fuge or sump of sorts where it would suck and push into the fuge on one end and suck and push back to the main tank at the same rate. Thus you only rely on the pump for the water flow. DJ: It doesn't look quite like what I had in mind but I'll call them to see if a direction can be found. Thanks again! Link to comment
glazer Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 ACK, I gib up..... I got NO clue what you are talking about. I need pictures/drawings/schematics...... 1) you can plumb a pump with as many intakes/outputs as you want. 2) water like electricity takes the path of least resistance. Till, someone shows me a draaaaaahing or peecture, I'm just gonna shut up now. Link to comment
Pulldownyourpants Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Damn! I'll try to paint somthing up for you guys so you can feel me! Wish me luck! I suck at this! Ok some set out an email addy and then post my pic or just look at it. I can't sign up for wespace from ATTBI at work.X) Link to comment
Xavier Posted December 19, 2002 Author Share Posted December 19, 2002 Originally posted by DeskJockey I found it! http://www.championlighting.com/e/env/0001...mps/hitech.html That's a monster! 750 gph for only $50? That's actually not a bad price.. they sell it without mounting brackets though... it'd look like a jetboat in my tank Link to comment
DeskJockey Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 HA HA HA MORE POWER!!!! :D Link to comment
Pulldownyourpants Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Fear my paint skills! I hope this helps! Link to comment
glazer Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 There are pump designs that can do this... I have now seen the light thanks to your Picasso like rendering. I have never seen any of these pumps though that are 1) small enough in scale to work on our aquariums, 2) made of materials that would be safe on our aquariums. Not saying they don't exist, just saying have never seen them. For what you want and are describing the pump has to be either a diaphram style pump with one way valves/flappers on the intake and outputs.... basically , well, like your heart. The other style that would work involves a vaned pump. The impeller is made of a flexible material, i.e. rubber and is fitted into a precision machined housing that is slightly out of round, kinda egg shaped if you will. The vanes on the pump actually make a sealed little pocket of water as it rotates... discharging it when the little compartment of water reaches the outlet. Conversely as the vanes reach the other side with is more elongated they straighten out and begin folding/flexing/bending or whatever and this is causing a suction on THAT side of the pump. The type of pumps we commonly use in our setups would not work as there is not a air/water proof seal to the pump mechanism/impeller.... balancing out the flow between one side working against head pressure and the other side fighting gravity would be some kinda engineering! Link to comment
Pulldownyourpants Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 So now you see (literally). My rendition of the pump is merely that, a rendition. Hopefully some one knows of one or is in the process of designing one. It would make a lot of people very happy. Link to comment
glazer Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 My rendition of the pump is merely that, a rendition. Hopefully some one knows of one or is in the process of designing one. It would make a lot of people very happy. There are pump designs that can do this... I have now seen the light thanks to your Picasso like rendering. Well I did some searching... why not, I had time. As I said there are pumps designed that do this... push out what they pull in, won't back-siphon on you as well.... I came up with two companies that make a pump not unlike your drawing but designed with the pump mechanism as I suggested... Versa-Matic and Yamada America were the two mfg.'s How much money ya wanna spend to be happy... I punched in parameters for the pumps that would suit our needs... Kylar, Teflon or stainless steel housings, neoprene impellers, 2 to 5 gallons per minute, and rated for continuous duty. Cheapest pump I came up with was 350 bucks... WooooWeeeeeee, spendy little bugger heh? Now if you wanna really get your DIY freak on (luv that saying,thanks TG) you can buy a couple of those flexible impeller pumps you hook up to power drills (they do have them with stainless steel impeller shafts), get yourself a motor, one with the shaft exiting both sides of the motor housing, hook up a pump to either side and there ya go! In case you're not sure of the type of pump I am talking about... here's a "cut-away" drawing of one.... uh, no I didn't draw it I just stole it, hehehehe Whatya think.... sound doo-able? Link to comment
Pulldownyourpants Posted December 23, 2002 Share Posted December 23, 2002 I know! Use a grinder! Maybe use a dimmer to limit flow. Attach the contraptions you posted on to each side of the grinder and VIOLA! Dual action pump! I wonder how hot that sucker would get if left on forever?: Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.