bio balls & nitrate

[supermarvin76]

I know that bio balls will act as a nitrate factory. My question is....will they still mass produce nitrate when they are fully submerged? I THINK they produce nitrates due to the wet/dry concept and the interaction with the air. I have bio balls in my sump right before my refug, but they are all full under water.

[steelhealr]

Not sure...I took them out of my setup. Most people don't use them IMO. SH

[Reef_Mad_Man]

This is a highly debated topic. Both sides have valid arguments as to why it will work and has for some, and why it wont work and hasnt for some.

It can be don ein my opinion but not on a nano reef.

Bio-wheels are also a hot debate for the same reasons.

Bioballs will act as a nitrate factory to a degree.

You should just use the search button to see all the bickering over this topic in the last 4 years on this board! LOL!!

[lgreen]

this would be a good question for someone at webwetmedia.com

 

i have seen them used occasionally fully submerged just as a bubble trap (eco system sumps/refugiums). however I do not know if they are still major nitrate factories when submerged.

 

The only thing i can come up with is that they may still hold some potential to produce nitrate, but I doubt it is comparable to that of a wetdry system.

 

If you consider the design of the eco system sumps/refugiums, i could see how they might be beneficial even as nitrate factories. basically an nitrogenous waste would be broken down by the bioballs into nitrate which could then be used by the refugium. (although i'm not sure if that is the purpose of the bio balls in the eco system sumps/refugiums).

 

good question, let us know if you can get an answer from some one at webwetmedia. might try searching there to incase it has been covered already.

[supernip]

no ammonia, no cycle can ensue. they are your friends if you keep them clean

[BAYSLAYER]

Sorry to jack your thread but I just started using them in my overflow to reduce the splashing sound, do you think there going to be a problem?

[lgreen]

see supernips commment.

[onthefly]

Well, bioballs are only NO3 factories if you have the nutrient and bacterial levels to produce that much N03. If your tank is low nutrient and you put 12 lbs of bioballs in there....they can only support enough bacteria to use the existing nutrients.

 

So, just cause you have a bioball, doesn't mean you'll be doomed to have high NO3.

 

They do, however, take biological filtration away from your LR...

[Ickypimp]

call me stupid (youre stupid) but i dont get the whole nitrate factory take on this

 

People advise using vrei porous live rock like fiji or convoluted stuff like Marshall island because it has massive surface area ( it obviously has more to offer in terms of critters etc) so why is max SA here ok but bioballs/sponges/ceramic media considered a nitrare factory ??

[Joao Monteiro]

I don´t think that submerging the bioballs will reduce their risk (to say the least) of acting as nitrate factories.

Bioballs (and prefilte sponges) may only host aerobic bacteria (those that live with O2) that convert waste and NO2 into NO3. The later (N03) is eliminated by anaerobic bacteria (those who live without oxigen). Anaerobic bacteria may only be found in the center of LR and in the lower levels of a good DSB (with 5 inc./12,13 cms), where O2 doesn´t reach. Aerobic bacteria live in the upper levels of DSB and in LR, as well.

So, if you have LR and DSB the system tends to be balanced.

If you don´t have a proper DSB (the case of most nanos; all of those that don´t have a refuge, I think), you may have a risk of production of NO3 that may not be properly eliminated; adding prefilter sponges and bioballs will increase the risk significantly.

 

But this is a controversial issue like Reef_Mad_Men said. Some people say that if use sponges and bioballs thus eliminating a higher level of NO2 and change/wash them periodically, you may "act as" anaerobic bacteria and eliminate a higher level of both No2 and No3.

 

I prefere not to have neither bioballs nor prefilter sponges and have the system "naturally" balanced. I cannot be lazy, however, with the water changes…

[formerly icyuodd/icyoud2]

bio balls have one purpose and one purpose only.(btw- i have them in my sump) to increase surface area. plastic does not produce no2's, but they do trap crud in the tank.

 

keep em clean like nip said, and you wont have a n02 factory.

[Ickypimp]

Originally posted by Joao Monteiro

I don´t think that submerging the bioballs will reduce their risk (to say the least) of acting as nitrate factories.

Bioballs (and prefilte sponges) may only host aerobic bacteria (those that live with O2) that convert waste and NO2 into NO3. The later (N03) is eliminated by anaerobic bacteria (those who live without oxigen). Anaerobic bacteria may only be found in the center of LR and in the lower levels of a good DSB (with 5 inc./12,13 cms), where O2 doesn´t reach. Aerobic bacteria live in the upper levels of DSB and in LR, as well.

So, if you have LR and DSB the system tends to be balanced.

If you don´t have a proper DSB (the case of most nanos; all of those that don´t have a refuge, I think), you may have a risk of production of NO3 that may not be properly eliminated; adding prefilter sponges and bioballs will increase the risk significantly.

 

But this is a controversial issue like Reef_Mad_Men said. Some people say that if use sponges and bioballs thus eliminating a higher level of NO2 and change/wash them periodically, you may "act as" anaerobic bacteria and eliminate a higher level of both No2 and No3.  

 

I prefere not to have neither bioballs nor prefilter sponges and have the system "naturally" balanced. I cannot be lazy, however, with the water changes…

 

ok dude this is where i have to call you out on this one

ok you discuss nitrate reduction by anerobics, not strictly true, these are infact facultative anerobes, they are aerobic organisms that can change metabolic pathways and utillise Nitrogen as a source of oxygen for ATP synthesis

I would like also to pint out that if water is getting in there to transport nitrate rich water then you can bet your ass that oxygen is getting in there too, the best you can hope for in a nanoreef is anoxic, mi9croaerohillic zones in the sand and deep in rock

 

second point, any reef system should have a finite supply of nitrite therefor there is a limited amount of nitrate that can be produced

 

Lets say for the sake of simplicity that 1 square inch of surface area (with microbes) will turn 1 unit of nitrite to nitrate in 1 hour...

 

and our nano rank contains 100 units of nitrite and 50 inches of SA it is gonna take 2 hours to convert

 

by adding another 50inches of bioball sa then it will take i hour

 

Nitrite is far more toxic to your reef than nitrate, and lets face it ... a dirty tank is a dirty tank.

 

I put it to you that it is better to have a larger SA as it will get ammonia to the nitrate stage much faster as a concequence your tank will be less toxic, with regular water changes/macro algae/nitrasorb Nitrate really should not be your main concern

[Joao Monteiro]

I started by saying the issue is controversial - which is good.

I Take your point that its better to have nitrates than nitrites and amonia; but the aim is to have none.

 

I picked a simple explanation or how it works from wetwebmedia, in their FAQ´S:

"The process is essentially the same for converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate whether it's done by the bioballs or the live rock, as you have already surmised. The difference comes after the conversion of nitrite to nitrate... The pore structure of the live rock (or the grain-size/depth of a sand bed) creates anoxic zones; not commonly associated with bioballs, that foster bacteria which can/will process nitrates converting them to nitrogen, which is then liberated from the tank as the bubbles you see rising from the rock/sand bed. The bioball/wet-dry filters are referred to as nitrate factories because their end product is just that...nitrate...and they are so efficient at it even when used in conjunction with live rock they can overwhelm the live rock's ability to convert same to nitrogen. Thus, most prefer to exclude bioballs from reef systems...though they can be quite handy for dealing with large/fluctuating bioloads in FO/FOWLR systems that can handle a higher nitrate load"

 

Although they mention specificaly the wet-dry filters, I believe there is no big difference when bioballs are totally submerged.

[supernip]

i love science but i hate long posts. so to add, please keep in mind that our lr becomes useless with time as it gets encrusted with coraline/corals. k thanks for keeping that in mind

[Ickypimp]

Originally posted by supernip

i love science but i hate long posts. so to add, please keep in mind that our lr becomes useless with time as it gets encrusted with coraline/corals. k thanks for keeping that in mind

 

Good thinking batman

[onthefly]

Agreed....cess pool in = cess pool out!

 

Bioballs are there for colonization only....if you lack the nutrients to support a gazillion bacteria, then the excess SA will do nothing, except clog with detritus, then you'll get your excess nutrients

[Reef_Mad_Man]

1st our live rock is not constantly exposed to AIR like traditional Bioball set ups so there is NO comparison to be made at all between the two.

 

OntheFly, you are 100 percent correct!

This is why I didnt want to make any statments on it in my 1st post.

Too many wil dideas and missconceptions.

I mean comparing Bioballs to LR? I guess but it is like comparing pinapples with table salt.

[Undertheradar]

Gosh, Im gonna put this to rest. Bio balls, when submerged or used in a wet-dry are nitrate factories with aerobic bacteria...unlike your rock. The only exception to this is if you use the balls in a sealed, low flow chamber and feed it with either sugar or alchohol...then it becomes a denitrification reactor with anaerobic bacteria.

 

The only diff between submerging bio-balls and using them in a wet-dry is that air contains more oxygen than water, and so with a wet-dry you are increasing the nitrate production capabilities of the aerobic bacteria on the media. But they are still aerobic and that means the best that can happen is conversion of ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. And no, nitrate is not more desirable than nitrite. Not in a reef. There are many more bacteria in a reef that can deal with and consume nitrites directly and quicker than waiting for nitrates to get to the areas where nitrates are dealt with...a much slower process that can only be performed by anaerobic bacteria. So by boosting the conversion of nitrite to nitrate by adding aerobic media you will in fact hurt your reef more because nitrate is harder for the bacteria in your tank to process.

 

The reason why live rock is different is this: Sure, on the surface, live rock has nitrite>nitrate converting bacteria...so does everything else in your tank including the inside of pipes and the tank walls. But, LR is made up of a highly porous material where bacteria are allowed to thrive in low-no oxygen zones. These zones harbor bacteria that eat ammonia and nitrite directly, as well as if you go deep enough to where oxygen cant get to...conversion of nitrates to nothing but nitrogen gas by heterotrophic bacteria like Pseudomonas. This results in those black deposits that smell like rotten eggs that you see if you crack a piece of LR in half (dont do this on purpose, it releases alot of PO4)...or have a deep sand bed with poor circulation.

 

In general, dont mess with bioballs or other biolgical media in a reef...unless you know what you are doing...I.E.: making a anerobic reactor. If you are looking into a reactor ever, dont use the bio-ball ones...stick to the sulphur based ones.

[Joao Monteiro]

That´s it

[icenine]

UTR, that's a very nice explanation of anaerobic bacteria in a reef system but I don't think it's a good explanation of why you should not have bio-media as a part of your filtration. If you have a reef tank let's assume that you have at least some live rock in your system. (unless someone is mounting coral on bio-balls, in which case please post pictures)

I've looked at this topic a bit and think there really is very little anaerobic bacteria at work in a nano. Larger reef systems? ...Yes, but in a nano there probably is just not enough area (in a dsb or in live rock) for this to occur much if at all or at least not enough to have a significant impact.

 

I don't think that the question is should you have live rock in your system, it's not a reef tank if ya don't right? It's should you not have bio-whatever as part of your filter medium. I've yet to see a convincing evidence to prove it is detrimental to a nano reef if maintained properly.

(PS, I run bio-bale next to my skimmer, gets cleaned off regularly and I've had no problems ...mine is always submerged if that makes a difference)

[supernip]

It's been a long time since I've read through these articles so my perspective is probably obscured. But here are some good links for you to ponder.

 

with respect to live rock

with respect to bioballs

[supernip]

history keeps repeating itself. It's bad for someone with such a short attention span like myself

[MrAnderson]

Originally posted by icenine

I've looked at this topic a bit and think there really is very little anaerobic bacteria at work in a nano. Larger reef systems? ...Yes, but in a nano there probably is just not enough area (in a dsb or in live rock) for this to occur much if at all or at least not enough to have a significant impact.

 

This is pure conjecture, but I think there may be more anaerobes than it seems at first glance. The buggers are MAD small and could probably colonize not only microscopic cracks in LR but also within grains of aragonite. You don't need a bolus or colony alive somewhere to do the job, a spread out population could really add up.

 

Ever since I started reefing I wish I still had carte-blanche at our scanning electron microscope facility. Sample prep is a royal PIA, but I bet the results would be cool as hell.

[onthefly]

Neo - I'd like to see that!!!

 

UTR - Isn't that funny how 2 different conditions yield two totally different results. Thus, supporting the idea, BB are only for colonization....either way!

[Undertheradar]

icenine,

If the question is "Should we use additional aerobic biological substrates in nanos?"...I would say no in a heart-beat. You are prolly right, in that the pieces of rock that we use in a nano might not contain as much anaerobic bacteria hosting volume in proportion to a larger tank with bigger pieces...but to make up for this with more aerobic bacteria is a step in the wrong direction. Minimizing aerobic activity is the best idea. LR can deal with ammonia, nitrites, and proteins much faster and in larger amounts than nitrate...so by boosting your nitrate production you are overwhelming your live rock's capacity if anything. And the nitrite & ammonia conversion is done closer to the surface...so smaller pieces of LR would make no difference. Being that an overwhelming majority of your tank is exposed to oxygen and hosts aerobic bacteria in comparison to anaerobic...adding more colonization space for aerobic isnt helping youve got plenty if not too much already. More places for anaerobic conversion would be the key if anything. If anything, by adding more aerobic housing media, you are making more nitrate that a smaller piece of LR would have a harder time dealing with....where as if you left it alone, the LR would do a better job by absorbing ammonia and nitrite directly. These nitrite and ammonia bacteria that colonize the rock closer to the surface are what you are forgetting about. They are the most effective and most important.

 

LOL, OTF, I have given up on bare-bottom tanks for this very reason. The detrious isnt really easier to deal with...it still finds places under the rocks to build up...and its a PITA to remove no matter how much flow and manual removal I try. And if you dont remove it, it doesnt get processed by anything because there is no sand to host bacteria to do so...and so it just becomes a phosphate factory. I have settled on a 1-2" sand bed of 1-2mm sand and a large sand sifting crew. A sand-sifting 2-spot goby in one tank, and a diamond goby in another do such a good job at cultivating the sand and keeping it clean. As if that werent enough, I also have a breeding population of nassarius snails and a few of the super-tongans to be sure. My phosphates and nitrates are no longer a problem. Im just using critters to keep everything clean...much easier.