Ca/Alk 2-part users with SPS

[onthefly]

So, i've been trying to find the equilibrum between requirement and dosage (I'm using C-balance).

 

My 5.5 took 5ml every 3rd day, so I started the 20L at 10mL every other day, then 10mL a day, then 20mL a day, now 30mL a day....I can get the Ca and Alk up to 425 and 9 with Liquid Calicum and Baking Soda, but the 2 part isn't holding it. Calcium is worst than Alk.

 

I went back and checked Corey0418's 25ga thread (heavily loaded and heavy on the SPS) and he only used 10mL a day (stable at 400 and 10).

 

So what are your thoughts:

 

1) Since the tank is only a couple weeks old (fully cured LR and transferred livestock from my 2yo 5.5)...I'm wondering if it isn't "new tank syndrome" and will eventually equalize.

 

2) With 25-30 Calicum dependant frags/colonies..."get over it dumb ass" and move on.

 

Just wondering if anyone else notice flucuations initally, then stabilization.

[dhoffroad]

well I will have to go with # 2...LOL

 

but seriously I hav'nt noticed any flucuations with mine but my tank is'nt full of SPS either...it may be a little of both new tank and just plain too much for the two part to keep up with.

 

I'm sure someone else has had some experience with this I just hav'nt had my tanks stocked up enought to hav a prob with the two part....(yet...LOL)

[SLOreefer]

check your magnesium levels, and number two ha ha. if your mg is low your ca wont stay stable, that is why i use seachem calcium because it maintiains mg as well

[MrAnderson]

I once had to use baking soda and CaCl2 as well as kalk since that was the only method that would maintain my alk and Ca to 8-9dKH and 420. It seemed as if I couldn't add enough. I also couldn't figure it out because it had to go somewhere... I was dosing 0.5 tsp BS and 50mL 10%CaCl2 (Kent Liquid Calcium) every day or so. That's huge for a 6 gal tank, but my corals were growing so I figured so what.

 

If I still had any SPS (tank crashed, two powerheads seized over vacation) I would try to maintain these params a little lower, along the lines of Zeo and NSW, i.e. 6-7dKH and ~400ppm Ca.

 

Before my tank crashed I stopped dosing completely, and with the same demand my params settled in at ~6dKH and 380ppm Ca; things were looking great for a while. I didn't dose for 2 months and these params were fairly stable! This is after that insane regimen above! (BTW Mg was around 1400ppm) Seawater is some funny stuff, there was clearly some equilibrium threshold that I was trying to force into changing, but in the end the tank seemed happiest when the water did what it wanted to... It's also possible that after 6 months of heavy dosing I developed a reservior of CaCO3 somewhere that I later tapped to maintain the lower but stable numbers. It's possible that this reservior could become spent to the point of allowing alk and Ca to plunge. I never got to find this out.

 

However, it could be all the SPS...

[dzhuo]

I can get the Ca and Alk up to 425 and 9 with Liquid Calicum and Baking Soda, but the 2 part isn't holding it. Calcium is worst than Alk.

 

i have been battling this exact same problem for close to 7 months now. i just don't understand how some people are like "i add a little xyz once a while and my alk/cal are perfect". althought i am using b-ionic, probably slightly different than what you have. i used to add about 5ml a day. not enough. changed to 8ml, not enough. changed to 10ml, still not enough. switched to 15ml, still not enough. finally, at 20ml a day for my 10g, it's able to hold alk/cal @ 9 and 400. 20ml is a lot of 2-parts for a 10g and my alk/cal is still below ideal level for many sps keepers. my tank has virtually no coraline grow. my derasa clam and porite coral are the main consumers (both grows very fast) of alk/cal. in this thread:

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...threadid=612347

 

i posted (i have since stop posting after settling for the 20ml daily solution) my tank's alk/cal level on a weekly basic for the last couple of months. you are not alone.

 

btw, i checked my mg level a couple of times and it's about 1300 each time.

[supernip]

maybe something is causing it to ppt out. like uh.. adding them together. I didnt write out the equation so pure speculation on my part. dont kill me for being lazy.

[onthefly]

Good insight everyone,

 

SLO - Magnesium was my first thought, but it's not the problem cuz its been stable at 1350ppm and I dose Tech-M.

 

Neo - I'm with you, I'll probably drop the levels down to 7dKh and 380ppm. I just read a Bomber thread where he keeps the levels lower cuz they're more stable (i.e. less swing) and he doesn't see any adverse effects. Sorry to hear about the crash. I hate XMAS time cuz we always go away for 2-3 weeks. Every year something bad happens!

 

DZ - That's good to know! I'll check out your thread.

 

I think I need to track the actual daily demand and see if that's within range. Looks like I'll need to pick up a dosing pump and start Kalk up again.

 

Supernip - No need to write the equation, I know adding them at the same time spells CaCO3(s). I add them 30min-1hr apart in a high flow.

[MrAnderson]

The real test would be to just let it go for a period of time and see if Ca/alk stabilize someplace reasonable. Kinda risky though, although I want to see what happens..

[onthefly]

Yeah....30mLs is TOO MUCH!!!

 

I'm just did a w/c last night and tested, I'm going to test tonight and dose 15mL, then test the following night. That should give me an idea of consumption.

 

BTW, corals all look good: coloring up, polyp extension, and growth!

[dhoffroad]

ok so I know I said earlier in this thread that things are good to go with me well WRONG...LOL...

 

so since I set up my 20 the only Alk test kit I had was one that read out low-normal-high which basicly is useless I thought that if I kept it at a just above "normal" it's PROBABLY where it needs to be so any way I finaly got off my lazy arse and got a test kit that actualy reads out in #'s. so this it what it reads out at 90 mg/L which acording to a conversion chart that I found is basicly 5 dkh. so my alk is freakin way too low...

 

so now is where I need a little help from you gus but please don't get to "scientific" with me (OTF & MrA) gota remember I'm just a stupid redneck LOL...ok so my ALK needs to come up how do I do it with out messin with the other stuff, what I mean by that is my Ca is 450 and adding equal parts of B-ionic is rasing that way high...and my Ph (durring photo period) is at 8.3...

 

I think I remember reading somewhere a while back that a skimmer can be affected by Ph and if that is the case then the low Alk will explain why my skimmer keeps F'n overflowing at night when the lights are off, my Ph must be floping all over the place....

 

anyway a little input would be helpfull should I just try and dose more of the "alk" part of b-ionic and see what happens? or do somethin else because dosing UNequal parts would suck when I have to buy more and actualy only need the "part 1"..LOL..

[MrAnderson]

check this out brudda:

 

Reef Chemistry Calculator

 

try some baking soda, you can add it without influencing Ca or pH. Don't forget to plug in a number for your tank volume or the calculator wont work.

 

Also, I've met some reefers that keep SPS in that range (around 5) pretty successfully, and I did so for a while. The stability seemed to keep the corals happy. Don't worry too much.

[dzhuo]

you almost "can't" have alk @ 5kdh and 450ppm of cal. your test kit might be wrong. i have heard that alk pretty much stablize (in saltwater anyway) after it drop below 6dkh; from there, it won't move much under normal situation.

 

should I just try and dose more of the "alk" part of b-ionic and see what happens?

 

i would suggest you not to do this. this is precisely what i have been mistakenly doing for serveral months. go got some baking soda or kent dkh. use it to raise alk to the level you desire and then use b-ionic to maintain it. always add equal dose of part a and b. technically, you can use b-ionic to raise alk (like you said to add more part a) but b-ionic is not designed to raise alk or cal so you are just wasting money for something you bought for a different purpose. good luck.

[MrAnderson]

Originally posted by dzhuo

you almost "can't" have alk @ 5kdh and 450ppm of cal.

 

Why not?

[dhoffroad]

ok so I'm gona try the baking soda. the calculator is a littel confusing to me (remember stuped redneck here) but it said to add 2 tsps. slowly. hey OTF how much were you putting in your tank ? oh yea and how exactly do I add the baking soda ? man this is making me sound like a total newb...LOL...but I hav'nt had to deal with this before.

[onthefly]

Ok, I guess I'll help out the redneck, fabricating sander

 

Take some fresh BS (that's baking soda, not the other alternative) and spread it out on a cookie sheet and bake it for about 20-30min at 400F. This drives of any extra water in the BS and helps when you go to dissolve it in RO/DI. That's why buffers usually say "close tightly".

 

If you can set up a drip set up, that's what I'd suggest. Dissolve your BS in RO/DI (you might have to hit it in the microwave for 20-30 sec), then drip it into the sump over several hours.

 

As for some perspective, I thought 30mL a day was too much. Well, I found out that Lunchbucket used to dose his SPS 10ga with 60mL EACH part, plus 1.5ga of Kalk.....A DAY!!!!

 

Currently, I'm running 15ml each part, plus a 1/4ga kalk drip everynight. Levels are 380ppm and 7.5dKh. Growth is fine, color is fine.....so I'm good with that!

 

DZ - I read that post of yours. Boy, was that a saga What did you finally end up dosing and what were your numbers? With regard to the levels, 5 and 450 are possible, it just isn't a balance set up and will fluctuate wildly, but that is good advice about the test kit.

[bradarmi]

Hey guys, too busy right now (I'm at work,lol) to add my two cents, but check this out, it helps put things into perspective if you're pictorally-minded: outhttp://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

[dzhuo]

What did you finally end up dosing and what were your numbers?

 

my numbers are:

 

alk: 8.3

cal: 390

mg: 1350

 

i have been getting these number consistently for the pass month with about 15 tests using salifert test kit. i was adding 20ml on a daily basis. i have then switched to 15ml (10ml in the morning and 5ml after lights off) for the last couple of weeks and so far, i have not notice much drop in alk and cal. i will keep the 15ml dosage and incrase it slowly over time as my clam and porite continue to grow.

 

Why not?

5 and 450 are possible

 

yes it's possible and that's why i quoted "can't" because 5 dkh is too low. under normal circumstance (with a resonable salt and tank inhabitants), it's fairly rare to find alk to be so low. i still think the test kit might be bad.

[dhoffroad]

OTF thanks....

 

as for the test kits the two that I have (which ar'nt the best) basicly say the same thing so I don't "think" that is the prob...but thanks...

[MrAnderson]

I believe that baking soda can be added directly, and it's baking powder that needs to be cooked beforehand.

[dhoffroad]

actualy I THINK it can be both...I think one way has more affect on the PH than the other (cooked and not cooked)...but I'm not sure I have tried to do a lot of reading on this and well I think I just overloaded my tiny little brain...LOL

 

anyway I did as OTF said and cooked it and just started the drip so I will see what happens...so if all goes wrong yes I will BLAME OTF...LOL...JK

[onthefly]

Sounds good to me!

 

I know the BS works, cuz I do it and it will raise the alk. That's interesting about baking powder, I could have overlooked that. IME, carbonates don't like to dissolve in SW, thus the cloudy reaction.