Design my sump...

[glazer]

Well I have gathered all the parts and paraphanlia for my minibow finally and time to start putting it all together. So before I started cutting baffles and drilling holes I thought I would give those so inclined a chance to offer up ideas/suggestions on what they think would make the perfect sump/refugium. I've done the searching and gotten some ideas but rarely do I ever see any comments about how it's working out. You know, the "if I did it again I woulda..." or "too many bubbles were getting into the return so I......" or what I would like to see, "My design is working flawlessly and I couldn't be more pleased!"

 

So that being said... the display tank is a 7 gallon minibow drilled with a 1" drain line and a 1/2" return. The sump is a standard AGA 10 gallon tank, 20x10 and 12" deep.

 

Things going in the sump are a 100 watt titanium heater (I'd like to put it in the sump anyway), an IceProbe chiller (plan on drilling the sump for this), an Otto venturi protein skimmer ,and finally a Mag5 pump for the return.

 

My plan is to "T" the return off of the Mag5 and run a line to the skimmer, ball valve on the return line to the tank. I thought this would work out great as the Mag puts out more flow than I want from the return line not to mention I don't think the overflow would be able to keep up. Instead of another pump/powerhead to run the skimmer I can just throttle down the flow to the display and let the rest bleed off to the skimmer.

 

My concerns right now as far as putting it all together is first, the effectiveness/advisabilitly of placing both the heater and chiller in the sump. As of now I don't have a controller for the chiller and was just thinking of hooking it to the timer to come on with the lighting. I thought I'd try it out first before investing in a controller.

Secondly... I want baffle placements/configurations to virtually eliminate any possibilites of bubbles making their way into the return pump. If my return line is spitting micro bubbles into the display I'm gonna be whizzed!

 

So there you have it... any thoughts/advice/recommendations is welcomed. If you tried something and it didn't work... let me know. Likewise if you set something up that is performing brilliantly I wanna know that too. Also if you are so inclined, graphics would be much appreciated... show off your stuff. Me I can barely manage to make a post let alone work some program that makes cool boxes and diagrams...lol

 

Thanks guys and gals......

Steve

[glazer]

Nobody has ANYTHING to say? Hmmmm, okay then I'm just gonna have to do it without you.

 

No "woulda shoulda coulda" comments will be tolerated after I'm done with it... unless! comment is accompanied by a slip signed by two witness's stating that you were either in a coma, held hostage by terrorists and tortured by having to bathe in near boiling camel pee OR was attending a 10 day luuuuuuuuuuvfest in the deserts of the great southwest at the time of my original post. If the latter is the case you will be severely shunned for having not letting me know about the nookie-bash.

[edying]

Hey Glazer -

 

How are running your feed line into the sump? I tried a couple of different things when setting up mine (just completed a few weeks ago).

 

1st - tried submerging the feed into the input compartment --- too many issues with back pressure - I'd get a big "burp" coming from the line every few minutes.

 

2nd, tried the feed above water level - resulted in quite a bit of splashing.

 

Finally, settled for leaving the feed submerged, but drilled 1/4 holes in the feed line every few inches on the top - lots of bubbles, but only in the feed area...

 

One thing I was reading on one of the other boards, make sure you leave enough room between your baffles to ensure that you get a relatively slow flow through them. Some one had his baffles too close together - he said the flow through them was too great and it just carried the bubbles straight through them.

 

HTH

 

Ed

[schrader]

here is a pic of one i built

[schrader]

sorry

[Twins Guy]

that's a cool little skimmer, more peeps should look at those! as for sump design i really like simple like the pic below. are you planning to run the magdrvie in-line or submersed? in-line may discipate more heat (which may or may not be an issue-even though you have the iceprobe) but its more of a PIA! a lil bonded filter pad or sponge rinsed frequently may help with any bubble issues. maybe you'd consider adding a raised baffle (so water goes under) in that middle compartment. make sure your skimmer effluent is upstream from here and you should have few if any bubbles reaching your return pump. HTH

[Twins Guy]

niner?

BTW this is a wetdryfilter.com model, but not a plug!

[glazer]

Nice info Ed, exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, "did this and didn't work, tried this and better"... my plan was for the return line to come into the sump using two 45 elbows versus one 90 so as to get more of a "gentle swoop" instead of a "hard right turn" and then have one or two "T"s and an elbow at the very end to give me in effect a spray bar with giant holes. Would then position this basically at water level in sump. My thoughts are that it will give just enough back pressure to eliminate gurgling noises at the overflow plus cut down on all the splashing. Sound good/bad/er,maybe?

 

shrader... nice little sump. Interesting setup, how does it work? Is the first section for the refugium area? First time I've seen an arrangement like that... the pvc arrangement acts pretty much like and overflow into the second compartment then?

 

TG, Yah, I've seen that skimmer in use before and it actually works pretty sweet. A buddy has it and it took awhile to find out what kind it was, he bought it used and there is no markings on it to say who made it... he found the box out in the garage finally and gave me a call... said it's an OTTO! Search came up with the site I linked too, so tada! Price was right too. He has his hooked up to a Maxi1200 PH and it pulls some real nasty stuff out.

As far as the Mag, yes I'm running it submerged... I really like these pumps as far as reliability and have used them in the past quite a bit. The mfg. states they can be hooked up externally but I don't recommend it... I've done that before and it seems to shorten their life dramatically. The heat factor on them doesn't seem to be much of an issue on smaller ones, I felt no warmth to them at all while submerged... had a Mag18 and a 24 before that I could feel heat coming off of though. And oh yeah, I have a strainer like attachment on the intake of my pump.

Your pic of the sump... yeah, that is pretty much what I planned on for baffle arrangement, my setup would be reversed of the one in the pic though, return section would be on the far right of my sump. The skimmer is going to be located in the first section as well as the IceProbe as I have it planned now although I am waffling on that one... maybe the chiller in the middle or last compartment? What to do,what to do. I've decided to buy a controller for it now I'm just wondering if the placement of the Probe will effect it's effiency, prolly doesn't matter where it goes but then again....... ??? I dunno.

 

Thanks for the input so far... I really am taking notes and listening, keep the stuff coming!

[Twins Guy]

glazer another thing i've done in the past is use a ball valve on the line running to the sump. have to be careful that it doesn't restrict flow so much that the tank overflows, but...there's always a balance point. stops a lot of gurgling. i've done this with drilled tanks w/ overflow boxes. if you're using one of those bulkhead kit strainer deals this might not really work though (would no longer be skimming surface water) anyways hope it works great for you. i was gonna nominate you for best nanoreefer of the year but my computer crashed mid post, dang! maybe l8r, hehe

[onthefly]

Hey Glazer,

 

On your return line, your going to "T" the line and have flow to both the tank (the actual return line) and the other side powers the skimmer? You might run into some control issues here. Sorry but the Physics geek is coming out! Given that water will follow the path of least resistence, you'll have to find the "sweet spot" where your return flow matches the flow into the skimmer. At that point, who's to say the flow rate in the skimmer (which, I haven't had one that didn't need alittle tweaking) is at its "sweet spot". Sorry if that's alittle confusing. Bottom line is you're going to have to find a balance between the return and the skimmer, AND at that point, hope that you still have wiggle room with the skimmer.

 

I dunno, maybe I ought to put down the Molecular Biology book and go to bed.....got a final tomorrow!:|

[glazer]

My plan is to "T" the return off of the Mag5 and run a line to the skimmer, ball valve on the return line to the tank. I thought this would work out great as the Mag puts out more flow than I want from the return line not to mention I don't think the overflow would be able to keep up. Instead of another pump/powerhead to run the skimmer I can just throttle down the flow to the display and let the rest bleed off to the skimmer.

 

Thanks onthefly, I went back and read what I originally posted and well it didn't come out exactly as I had it in mind... and thanks for the input. *Note to self, ball valves on both return line and skimmer feed* I think between the adjustable exhaust on the skimmer and the balve on the feed that should give me enough tweekin' room...

Thanks again and GOOD LUCK! on your test tommorrow. Nothing like going home for the holidays with a big gold star on your report card.... hehe

[schrader]

I going to try and explain how it works because the pics kind of sucks.Here goes.The pipe going in has slits going side to side all the way up to the waterline.The pipe is discharged in a corner box.The corner box has 1/4inch holes along the bottom about 1/4 the way up.The perpose for the holes is so the air bubbles go up and not into the refuge area.I forgot to mintion the top of the corner box is above the waterline.then it overflows to the next level the sump by way of overflow pipes.I did this so to try and keep algea from going to where the pump was.In one of the corners of the sump there is another corner box that goes about halfway up for the return pump to be free of bubbles that could of formed but this setup didnt really have any bubble on the sump side after tring it. I only had about 500 to 600 GPH flow going in it at the time.I really dont have anything bad to say about this sump it work very well.

[edying]

Hey Glazer -

 

OTF and your posts got me thinking... you may want to go with two different pumps. I guessing its kind of risky to use a pump that is rated for a higher flow than your return. With a single pump T'd, what happens if one portion get blocked for whatever reason? You'd either get an flood or a skimmer outta control (which could be even worse if that sh*t gets back into the tank).

 

You might be able to balance it out using a extra valve just after your pump to limit your flow b4 your T - you just need to ensure that if one side or the other gets stopped - you won't cause yourself issues.

 

-Ed

[glazer]

shrader, Now that you've described it I can see the boxes you are talking about, didn't notice them before since they are clear and your center divider is red(?). I thought about the box area for the overflow but in trying to lay everything out it was getting pretty crowded in that section...UNLESS I put the skimmer over on the return end. Thanks for the info and I may end up going that way if the splashing is too much with the "spraybar" thingie.

 

Ed, well from past experience, research and my buddy da plumber my overflow should handle about 400 gallons and hour.

At a little less than a 3' head the Mag should be right around that or slightly less. I wouldn't really wouldn't expect any blockage in the actual lines themselves... something would have to make it through the pump for that to be a prob. With the ball valve regulating flow to the tank even if the skimmer feed was shut off I don't think there would be any worries for flood... IF you want to worry about flood potential then having the overflow blocked is the concern. I have lost siphons due to power failures (regular overflow boxes) and had bulkheads blocked before in the past, and this is NOT good.....lol By having the return section baffled off this would keep the whole sump from being pumped into the tank but nonetheless the floor is getting wet...EEK!

Thanks guys for the input, construction begins this weekend so keep it coming.

[onthefly]

Hey Glazer,

 

Could you post a pic of that skimmer once you've got it set up. At $48, if it pulls junk out better than a Skilter mod..........I'm sold!

[glazer]

uh dood, I think that skimmer project from gatorade bottles, Elmer's glue and rubberbands (see Elmers thread) would pull out more junk that a mod'ed Skilter! Oh I say that in jest, I ran a modified Skilter before and it worked um, well not bad.

 

I've seen the Otto in action and it really is a decent skimmer, that's why I was bugging the hell out of a friend of mine to find out what it is he had. I had certain size limitations to work with and this thing is small compared to almost any other model that can be fit in a sump. I hope to have the whole thing set up and running within the next couple of weeks but prolly won't be any pics of "junk pullin' " for another month. But yes of course, there will be pics for sure

[onthefly]

As a wood worker, you must have chucked up your lunch!

 

I'm a fan of skimming (maybe it's the FOWLR in me!), but I'm planning a 10ga and a 28ga reefs by Feb. and you got my attention with this little bugger! Seems the Prizm has quite a following in the smaller skimmer world, but this guy is half the price.

[DeskJockey]

Glazer-

Heres a sump recipe that works for me everytime with no bubbles in the return.

[DeskJockey]

oops I noticed a mistake-

 

The waterline between the first baffle should be equalized

Like this:

[glazer]

Thanks Desk Jockey...oooooooooo schematics! hehehe

 

I'm laying everything out in the sump right now, that 10 gallon tank got REAL small all the sudden! What looks like will work/what I'm going to have to do is (look at your schematic) move the middle and far right baffle all the way over to as close to the return pump as possible and keep the whole left side of sump open... skimmer mounted (in hangs on edge of tank) over on the same side as the pump. I've got the batteries charging for the camera right now, but I'll put up a pic later.

[BCOrchidGuy]

I used a 10 gallon as a sump and it worked well on my 45, I don't have any pics and I sure didn't spend much time working on it but it held my heater, some bio balls, filter floss an aquaclear 500 sponge and my skimmer, a Rio 2500 T'd off was my return and I just didn't like that it didn't look complicated, it worked well though.

Basically I had the water come from my tank and splash down on some filter floss, I had that laying on top of some Bio balls that were maybe 4 inches deep. The bio balls were on a plexi bed that was 3 inches off the bottom of the tank, this area had a plexi partition dividing the two sections of the tank. There were holes drilled in the bottom plexi bit to allow the water to drain through. The sponge filter was set in side way and held in place by a small bit of plexi running side to side in the tank on the heater/skimmer side and the other side was backed up against the dividing plexi. The skimmer and heater were just arranged how they fit in the tank and I used the Rio to return the water to the tank. During power outages the 10 filled to with in 2 iches of the top of the tank and when running the water was about 5 inches deep.

 

It was a bone easy set up and like I say the bad part was it didn't look cool.

[gobies]

DeskJockey-- what's that pipe elbow in the last part of the sump used for? Refugium connection?

[DeskJockey]

gobies,

It can be used for two things

 

1. Any future connections like a refugium

or

2. Waterchange. You have a 90 with a piece of pipe inside the sump and a standard brass fitting on the outside. You cut the pipe on the inside to the desired level (takes a few trys) and when you want to do a water change you can just connect a waterhose to the brass fitting open the valve and it will drain untill it reaches the top of the pipe. Works great for large waterchanges but not really necessary on a nano. I thought I would just put it there for anyone whos designing a sump for a larger tank.

 

 

glazer,

Yeah space goes fast! I even tried to draw that to scale so it should be pretty close. One thing I would watch out for is if youdecide to put the skimmer with the return pump, the return pump might suck up some bubbles the skimmer. Well let us know how it all worked out.

[Pulldownyourpants]

OMG this thread is exactly what I needed! I just picked up a 150g and was wondering about the filtration. I have a thirty that I was going to use as a sump. Now I have more ideas on what to try.

 

Deskjockey: excuse my ignorance, but what are the other cylindrical thing-ama-jiggers in your sump? I noted all of your piping but have no clue what the rest of that is.???

[DeskJockey]

pants, (yeah Im not going to tell you to pull down your pant )

 

I think the cylindrical thing-ama-jigger your talking about is the skimmer. Water comes down from the far laft (arrow pointing down in schematic), goes through skimmer w/pump, through baffles, then returned to tank via pump (arrow pointing up in schematic).

 

For a 150g I would use a larger sump. A 30 should work if done correctly, but it depends on how much water will siphon down during a power outage. I have a 65 and a 20 tall sump and that thing practically fills to the top. If its a 150 long more water will siphon down because of the surface area. You can also use a check valve on the return. Some people down like to use them because of the loss of flow and the extra ware on the pump. I personally would rather insure that sucker doesnt flood and a quality pump would not suffer much.